Killing for God and Country

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Wrong on both counts as there's no religious element in U.S. foreign policy as far as us spreading Christianity or targeting nations solely based on their religion.

As far as loonies go, you've upped the ante if you really believe Stalin, Hitler, Mao, the Kims of North Korea and Pol Pot weren't atheists?

While Stalin was a self-professed Atheist, Hitler was a religious fanatic, "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." (Mein Kampf)

For the Far East Communists, religion is a bit harder to distinguish as Theist, or Atheist, as the parallels between Western and Eastern religions just are not there.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Some Old Guy

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Wrong on both counts as there's no religious element in U.S. foreign policy as far as us spreading Christianity or targeting nations solely based on their religion.

As far as loonies go, you've upped the ante if you really believe Stalin, Hitler, Mao, the Kims of North Korea and Pol Pot weren't atheists?

Not having religion per say as part of US offIcial foreign policy, and not recognizing that for some in leadership, and others in the general population who feel strongly God, the God of Christianity is on our side and supports and justifies our actions is myopic.

As you have already been schooled, Hitler was no Atheist. Communist Atheism ala the USSR was more about power and control, specifically removing it from the Churches and placing it with government, not so much as a motivation for atrocities committed.

[alienlovechild 75]

For the Far East Communists, religion is a bit harder to distinguish as Theist, or Atheist, as the parallels between Western and Eastern religions just are not there.

The piles of dead didn't have much a religious preference either but they were killed all the same even without the usual monotheistic religious which usually get flogged on this forum.

So the most of organized murder by totalitarian states had little to do with religion. They killed people for political reasons so they could be justified if you've got political leanings to the far right or far left. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

The only sticking point may be Hitler being religious if you count a guy that was pushing a religion that didn't look much like Catholicism but has elements of eastern mysticism, norse mythology and social Darwinism based on "science" of eugenics. I'll buy the label of cult type religion that persecuted the minority traditional sects that refused to cooperate with the Nazis. More likely that the Nazis manipulated Christians with propaganda by making the claim that the Nazis weren't as bad as the godless communists. You'd have stronger case of religious facism with Franco, Mussolini and Latin American dictatorships of the past.

[Dan and Judy 614]

The piles of dead didn't have much a religious preference either but they were killed all the same even without the usual monotheistic religious which usually get flogged on this forum.

So the most of organized murder by totalitarian states had little to do with religion. They killed people for political reasons so they could be justified if you've got political leanings to the far right or far left. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

The only sticking point may be Hitler being religious if you count a guy that was pushing a religion that didn't look much like Catholicism but has elements of eastern mysticism, norse mythology and social Darwinism based on "science" of eugenics. I'll buy the label of cult type religion that persecuted the minority traditional sects that refused to cooperate with the Nazis. More likely that the Nazis manipulated Christians with propaganda by making the claim that the Nazis weren't as bad as the godless communists. You'd have stronger case of religious facism with Franco, Mussolini and Latin American dictatorships of the past.

If you worship your emperor as god, and he sends you off to kill, does that count as a religious war?

[mawilson 2,133]

dogs are supposed to be man's best friend, not man's best meal.

Best meal? They aren't even that tasty.

[james&olya 1,121]

The piles of dead didn't have much a religious preference either but they were killed all the same even without the usual monotheistic religious which usually get flogged on this forum.

So the most of organized murder by totalitarian states had little to do with religion. They killed people for political reasons so they could be justified if you've got political leanings to the far right or far left. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

The only sticking point may be Hitler being religious if you count a guy that was pushing a religion that didn't look much like Catholicism but has elements of eastern mysticism, norse mythology and social Darwinism based on "science" of eugenics. I'll buy the label of cult type religion that persecuted the minority traditional sects that refused to cooperate with the Nazis. More likely that the Nazis manipulated Christians with propaganda by making the claim that the Nazis weren't as bad as the godless communists. You'd have stronger case of religious facism with Franco, Mussolini and Latin American dictatorships of the past.

My own opinion is that murderous people will use whatever excuse is handy to justify what they do and religion is one of the easiest. A true christian or muslim is not inclined to be homicidal. The problem is that religion allows the weak-minded to avoid analyzing the issues personally, all they have to do is follow someone else's teaching and feel they are then righteous. Despots then use religion to enlist those weak-minded to engage in whatever murderous agenda they want.

[Dan and Judy 614]

Best meal? They aren't even that tasty.

Have you tried a little salt?

[mawilson 2,133]

Have you tried a little salt?

Only barbecue sauce.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Best meal? They aren't even that tasty.

They go good with San Miguel.

[mawilson 2,133]

They go good with San Miguel.

Or with this one:

[alienlovechild 75]

My own opinion is that murderous people will use whatever excuse is handy to justify what they do and religion is one of the easiest. A true christian or muslim is not inclined to be homicidal. The problem is that religion allows the weak-minded to avoid analyzing the issues personally, all they have to do is follow someone else's teaching and feel they are then righteous. Despots then use religion to enlist those weak-minded to engage in whatever murderous agenda they want.

I don't think religion is one the easier ways to justify a war especially as most of the more powerful countries are secular. Nationalism, tribalism and economics seem more common causes than religion. It could be argued that Islam, for example, is the only real counterbalance to the more onerous governments of the Middle East.

[james&olya 1,121]

I don't think religion is one the easier ways to justify a war especially as most of the more powerful countries are secular. Nationalism, tribalism and economics seem more common causes than religion. It could be argued that Islam, for example, is the only real counterbalance to the more onerous governments of the Middle East.

I agree that the 'cause' of war is likely to be economic, nationalism, etc, but the excuse has often, if not overtly religious, at least strong religious undertones. Even our little war with Iraq was sold to the religious right wing as religious. Supposedly we would make that area safe for christianity. Many people I talked with could not believe I was telling the truth when I told them that Saddam Hussein's vice-pres was a christian. They were sure we were justified in going to war to bring christianity to that country! Whether it was official US policy didn't matter. Perception is everything.

[alienlovechild 75]

Even our little war with Iraq was sold to the religious right wing as religious. Supposedly we would make that area safe for christianity. Many people I talked with could not believe I was telling the truth when I told them that Saddam Hussein's vice-pres was a christian. They were sure we were justified in going to war to bring christianity to that country! Whether it was official US policy didn't matter. Perception is everything.

I've heard other reasons for the Iraq War but never to save Iraqi Christians. The reality is almost half of Iraqi Christians fled the country since 2003. There's no U.S. program I know of to give them any special security. The plight of the Iraqi Christians is something no American policymakers are going to push for when we are trying to reduce our exposure there.

[james&olya 1,121]

I've heard other reasons for the Iraq War but never to save Iraqi Christians. The reality is almost half of Iraqi Christians fled the country since 2003. There's no U.S. program I know of to give them any special security. The plight of the Iraqi Christians is something no American policymakers are going to push for when we are trying to reduce our exposure there.

Who said it was to save Iraqi christians? The point I made was about the perception among the uneducated right wing, abetted by the usual suspect media outlets, that somehow we were bringing religious freedom to Iraq. There was at least one prominent general who explicitly exhorted the troops under his command thusly on the occasion of their deployment to the war theatre. I cannot remember who, maybe someone else here will recall. The previous administration was quite good at some of their 'dog-whistle' communications to their base when they could communicate something to them while maintaining official deniability of same for the public record. It might be an interesting exercise here to see how many actually stated or implied reasons there were for the war. At least one was religious!

[Dan and Judy 614]

They go good with San Miguel.

Ive been informed by some that it tastes best immediately following circumcision