Red Flags HCMC

[joenlemy 2]

Ive read several post here, and seen where couples have been denied a visa for not following vietnamese tradition. ex: not having a engagement celebration. getting married on the first visit. also hcmc seems to ask for documents that are not listed on their website for needed documents. ex: timeline of relationship, address for the last 10yrs,employment for the last 10yrs.

your ex wife's address... that seems a bit extreme to me. I've been seperated and divorced for over 4 yrs. i have no need or desire to know the where abouts of my ex

I just wanted to thank all of the vj members for sharing information that may in fact help the rest of us recieve a "pink"

I've also heard the name Marc Ellis mentioned several times here. some good reads on his web page. I also saw today that he is a fellow vj member. thanks Marc.

We have been waiting for a interview date since Sept 3, 2010. In many ways i'm thankful we havn't gotten a date yet. it has been a blessing in disguise. Things happen for a reason.

When our interview date does come up my wife will be better prepared for her interview then she would have been had I not found visajourney.

We are one of the couples that did not follow vietnamese tradition. . . I expect a denial, at the very least a blue slip. we plan to see Marc Ellis before the interview to have a plan of action before the interview.

plan for the worse hope for the best.

[Anh map 2,098]

If you've determined what the potential weak spots are in your circumstances why would you pay money to an attorney to tell you the same?

[joenlemy 2]

He has already told me the same. What i need and havn't seen here is what to do to prepare for a possible denial.

I have prepared every document from day one of our journey. we have not recieved a single RFE. no AP. nothing. . .

From what i've read about Marc this is his speciality. . . I havn't seen any threads on denials or how to go about preparing for them or fighting them.

Thats the reason for a lawyer

[joenlemy 2]

just a bit of history why we didin't follow tradition. we were introduced by my wife's sister. who is my sister-in law.they went through the immigration process 12yrs ago. we met on the phone june 08. i asked her to marry over the phone as well in oct09. the family approved of the marriage no problem. my sister-in law and i traveled to vietnam dec 09. which again i asked her to marry me. we already had the paper work in hand to get married. went to consulate in hcmc got all my docs verified. we married jan 11, jan 12 we were able to pick up our marriage license. i went back in june, and plan to return a week before the interview date.

i'm hoping a notorized letter from my sis-in law may help. im also thinking, it best if the petition stays in hcmc. i cant stay in vietnam forever. marc ellis seemed to be our best bet if we do get a denial. im only trying to be proactive rather then reactive.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Having an engagement ceremony is not a requirement. Neither is a timeline of your relationship. If they published a list of these things on their website and said "You're gonna need the following or your visa will be denied" then they would be sued. There is no statutory basis for them to require these things.

When they deny a visa because there was no engagement ceremony they are using their discretion. Same goes when they ask for a timeline of the relationship, a list of prior addresses, or proof of where your ex-wife lives - all at the discretion of the consular officer. We could argue all day about the fairness of this, but that won't change anything. They consider their discretionary authority to be an essential tool in detecting fraud. They also aren't going to tell you that you must have an engagement ceremony - some people are approved without it. They aren't going to tell you that you'll be required to submit a timeline - many people aren't. These are up to the discretion of the consular officer. We can only guess, based on the prior experience of other people, what things are likely to cause a problem and what things are likely to be requested.

Right off the bat, you've got four things that most people would consider to be red flags at the consulate in HCMC:

1. You were introduced by her sister.

2. You didn't have an engagement ceremony.

3. You got married on the first trip.

4. You made only one trip before sending the petition.

To a consular officer, these things smell like a relationship which was arranged to help a family member immigrate. If you had submitted an affidavit of support that was barely sufficient, or if you needed a joint sponsor, then they might suspect you were being paid to cooperate. If the joint sponsor was one of her relatives then they'd be convinced of it.

Your divorce was long enough ago that they likely aren't going to suspect anything there.

Nobody can say for sure whether any of the above is really going to be a problem. Like I say, it's based only on reading about the experiences of others. It all comes down to what is going on in the consular officer's head when they read your documents before the interview. It even depends on which consular officer you end up getting.

I thought I remembered someone posting recently about the subject of getting the consulate to hold the petition after the visa was denied. If I recall, they said Marc had told them that it used to be possible to get them to hold the petition for review by the visa section chief while they submitted more evidence, but that it's nearly impossible to do this anymore. Maybe you want to ask Marc about this. In fact, he's the one you should be talking to about preparing what to do in the event your visa is denied.

[Anh map 2,098]

AP happens after the interview, not before.

How did you know your sister-in-law? Are you Viet Kieu?

It does sound like you have some issues to overcome. Does your wife speak English well enough to explain the evolution of your relationship without the translator?

Preparing for the interview is the first thing. The better prepared she is, the lower the potential of delay or denial. Looking ahead makes sense. But keep the focus, and her mood, on a successful interview. Her state of mind plays a big part in the interview.

Given what you've stated consulting Marc, or another qualified attorney, would be worthwhile.

Best of luck to you both. Keep the questions and updates coming. There are a lot of HCMC "vets" here.

[joenlemy 2]

Thanks for the input Jim.

your right about the documents that HCMC can ASK for. They are not required. From reading a couple of articles on Marc Ellis website. hcmc can only deny you for something other then information provided to uscis in your initial filing. I may have to read the article over to make sure

We do have red flags out the kazoo. I didn't see it that way until I found visajourney. but your right it does look like it was arranged. That was the main reason for the post. I started seeing all these red flags myself. And it shocked the heck out of me. These flags may not be a problem. But from the experience of others they may well be. I've read some of the reviews about hcmc. more not good then good. like you said alot depends on the CO my wife gets . what a shame.

I have been in contact with Marc. he wants to interview my wife.

Thanks for reply anh map. I've seem where people sit in AP for a year, and your right AP is after the interview.

im not viet kieu. i'm just a home grown country boy, living here in Virginia. My brother lives a couple hours away. I've known my sister in-law for 12yrs. she is married to my brother. my brother met his wife through her cousin. My brother and her cousin worked together here in the states. Bottom line MY brother and I married Sisters. I suppose you could say my brother introduced me to my wife as easy as saying my sister in law introduced us.

My wifes english isnt all that great so i doubt she could, but she continues to suprise me everyday. She has a english tutor 6 days a week.come interview day she may very well be able to.I will say this, She does not rattle easy

We do talk interview prep. i ask her questions pertaining to me, my job, our home town. im in the process of remodling out kitchen, and have sent her emails with different pics of tile so she can help me pick out one. The advice on her mood during the interview is dead on. another reason i plan on being there when that time comes.

I may be over reacting to what I've read here. each case is different for sure.

Thanks for being here .

[ScottThuy 140]

Jim... They are alraedy being Sued for requiring them... It was sometimes possible a few years ago to get them to hold a petition.. Now that there is a new CG it may be possible again and Marc would be the one who would know...

Roger.. We got put in AP for a month at NVC (before the interview) as well as after.. so there can be AP before..

Joe.. Normally, I would say "Dont plan for denial".. but given the red flags that Jim noted.. you have some big hurdles to overcome.. The single visit/marriage is a huge red flag and most CO's at HCMC wiould hit you with that IMO... it can be overcome after the denial with more visits and proof of relationship, but it can be difficult to overcome at this stage if the initial petition did not already sufficiently address it. She needs to be ready for a difficult interview... she needs to know everything about you not just remember a bunch of facts.. keep things in perspective and know that this process can take a long time and its just a process.. One that we get through eventually...

[joenlemy 2]

Thanks Scott, yours, Jim, and Rogers opinion are much appreciated.

Once Marc interviews my wife, I'm sure I will have a better idea of what he has in in mind.

we didn't address any of the red flags Jim pointed out. so we will just plan on a denial, and move forward.

I have been talking to my wife about the red flags. We do talk 2 times a day, and email when something specific comes up. like the red flags.

Having the red flags is a major concern. not knowing about them would be worse..knowing about them gives me the ability to address them.. My wife says dont worry ... she may be right

They are alraedy being Sued for requiring them...

Thanks again

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Scott, if you're talking about the Tran v. Napolitano case, then I wouldn't pin much hopes on it changing much of anything at the consulate. The Attorney General's office filed a pretty strong motion to dismiss in October. They nailed just about every point in Tran's original complaint. I doubt the case will be dismissed without a trial, though. I've always thought there was some merit to Tran's arguments, but some points I always felt were doomed to fail. For example, I've always thought the "due process" argument was dead on arrival. The AG's office makes the same argument I've made against it - there is no fundamental right being denied, so due process is neither guaranteed nor required.

They shot down pretty much any argument against the consulate's procedures by citing a slew of prior cases that firmly establish that consular procedures and decisions are not subject to either administrative or judiciary review. This is referred to as the "doctrine of consular nonreviewability", and it has withstood numerous court challenges in the past. I would be stunned if the court found otherwise in this case.

Joe, in some cases I would suggest to someone with a lot of repairable red flags that they consider withdrawing the petition, taking some time to correct some of their red flags, and submitting a new petition later when they are better prepared. In your case, I don't think that would help. Only one of your red flags could be fixed, and that's the fact that you sent the petition after your first visit. Everything else is done, and can't be undone. You could make more visits, and try to stack up more evidence in your favor, but in the end you'll still be left with the fact that you were introduced by a relative, didn't have an engagement ceremony, and got married on your first trip.

Don't resign yourself to being denied, though. There have been people in similar circumstances who have still managed to get a pink at the first interview. Prepare for the interview as well as you possibly can. Just don't pin all your hopes on being approved or you'll be crushed if you're denied. Look at it like just another step along the way to eventually being with your wife in the US. Everyone who keeps trying will eventually succeed. The only ones who fail are the ones who stop trying.

[joenlemy 2]

Jim, before i found visajourney i always felt we would have a uphill battle getting a visa. cant really explain the reason for it. just call it gut instinc. now that i'm here i'm sure we do. i would think withdrawing the petition would raise even more reds flags. Wouldn't they have a record of the orginial, when I refiled ?

I plan on going to Vietnam in Dec. for the holidays. Then returning when my wife has her interview. We have been building as much evidence as possible since we were married.

They can deny us for all the red flags listed but in the end.. our marriage is credible, and that they CANNOT disprove. . . I haven't resigned myself to a denial, and i'm not going to just give up. we will get PINK. just maybe not on the first try.

Have A Great Thanksgiving

[Anh map 2,098]

Forgot about Scott living in AP for wayyy too long. The pre and post interview stages just blended together.

Joe, I think you've got the right mindset. Have her bring as much documentation of your relationship (up to that day) as possible to the interview. And don't be frustrated if the CO doesn't seem to examine all of it at that time. They have a schedule to keep for that day. Submit it then, or afterwards, if an RFE is given and keep moving forward. Some couples have had the beneficiary bring the USC's passport into the interview to prove that they are there with them at that time. It can only help to show that you are engaged in your wife's life and not just sitting back in the States waiting for a spouse to be delivered.

There won't be one "silver bullet", rather a preponderance of evidence that you two may have not followed a traditional path, but the reality is a true, bona fide relationship between two people. Help your wife to be prepared for some harsh questions that will be rephrased a couple of times. Trying to "shake" an interviewee is a common tool for the CO's. They aren't being mean, just doing their job to make sure that approvals are given to worthy applicants. They have to justify their decisions to their bosses just like the majority of us.

[joenlemy 2]

Roger, I'm in the process now of writing our timeline. As for docs. The only thing that I have been able to do was have my Will redone adding her to it. That was one of the 1st things I did after we were married. I cant add her my bank account. I was able to get her a ATM card, but it has my name on it. I've had to file 2 disputes on that and ended up having to cancel the card because we were being charged for withdrawls she didin't make. The last dispute is still under investigation. I'll make sure she has the dispute papers as well showing why the card had to be canceled. that in itself is one long drawn out story.

When I go over for the holidays, we plan on going over all the docs she has. Some will have to wait until we know her interview date. She will have quite a stack of docs to had in. I'll have 2 copies all of notorized docs just for insurance.

She'll be ready for the "Silver Bullets"

Would notorized statements from the family help explain our "desire" not to follow Tradition ?

I'm thinking the longer we have to wait for a interview the better.

Everything you've said is great advice, and it is much appreciated. I'm sure Marc Ellis will be telling her the same thing your telling me..

My Brothers wife had a 6hr interview. They also married on the first visit. They have been married for 12 yrs. The Sisters talk about the interview process as well. I'm thinking a lot has changed in 12 years, and interviews dont last that long anymore. I'm thinking they just dont have or dont take the time. they see red flags and "POOF" your either denied or put in AP... My wife will be ready for a harsh interview. I'm sure if they take the time to review everything we present to them the out come will be "PINK".

Thanks again for all the support