Utah Considers Making 12th Grade Optional

[GabiandVi 34]

I have been at this career business a long time, enough to be semi-retired and I'll let you in on a secret. In order to be successful, in order to stand out, in order to rise to the top, in order to make a lot of money, do you know what you need to do? IN ANY job? With ANY education?

Show up on time, Be reliable. Be friendly to the customer(s), be respectful to your manager, never talk back, never make excuses, never say it is "not your job". What's the big secret? Show me a job that isn't that way. Show me a CEO with triple masters degrees that doesn't do those things.

Your problem is your incredibly low expectations of the children you teach. Very sad. Teachers really need to get out in the "for profit" world for a whle.

Where in any of this do you have insight into MY expectations of MY students? People in the "for profit" world need to spend about a week in the classroom. After the month they've spent in the asylum recovering from that, they can start advocating with us for true reform in education.

I've been in the "for profit" world. How much time have you spent in the classroom, at the front of it?

[Heracles 417]

Those who weren't inoculated against the measlies?

Was it not you crying in the other thread about the very thing you are doing?

[GabiandVi 34]

What? Now you will tell us about the Soviet Union? Education in the Soviet Union was paramount. Say what you will but they paid for college through any level you wanted attend. The former Sviet Republics still do. It was expected that you went to college, 5 years. If you did not go to college, you wet to a trade school, this was AFTER finishing high school. I am not aware of anyone that didn't finish high school. With half the population of the United States they had 10 times the students studying AP math courses! Our 8th grade son was promoted to 10th grade 2 months after starting school here. Our 19 year old is in his 3rd year of a 5 year masters program in the top physics school in the former Soviet Union, the same school where their rocket scientists studied and they are the ONLY other country with a manned space program.

No. I'm talking about the Czech Republic. That's in Eastern Europe in case you didn't learn that in school. Miners made more than doctors, etc. And NOT everyone there went to college. There were high schools for waiting tables, high schools for caring for children, high schools for repairing wooden-stringed instruments, and so on.

But you already knew that because if you have a wife from the former Soviet Union, you know about all of Eastern Europe.

The pay scales had nothing to do with education. They were mandated by the communist government and are still depressed by the same socialist programs.

Duh! Did you read what the comment was responding to? Or maybe you, who expects your children to go to a 4 year college and have a better opportunity at a job because of it expects a blue-collar worker to get paid the same as a banker. Or maybe the language was too difficult for you to follow. I know what high expectations your teachers had for you. If you showed up to school on a disasterous weather day, you got full points, huh? Because that was all important, not necessarily the learning. So I'll explain it to you. I don't necessarily agree with blue-collar workers getting paid the same as professionals.

You can just confine your low expectations to your own children and the students you teach. Lucky them.

Am I mistaken or were you the same person that kept your children home because it was 30 degrees outside, you hadn't bought them coats and you thought they would be cold? Was that you? I think it was the same day my kid went to the bus stop at -15 F. and then went snowmobiling after school. I remeber thinking..."30 degrees?...that's like APRIL or early MAY or something"

It was January and February. And school was closed, so obviously, I was right, and you were wrong. Again, I know you don't know much about geography, but there are different weather conditions in Vermont than in the South. Vermont is colder than the South. It's the tilting of the earth, but nevermind. I'm probably getting too deep for you. So you won't understand that people in Thailand wouldn't know how to drive if there were a snowstorm and they wouldn't have the clothes to keep them warm. Neither do people in the South. Same problem.

And weren't you the one who said I probably was just glad to get the day off? Guess what. Just as I told you, I worked an additional two days than originally scheduled. Yes. We are already on summer vacation because of that whole different weather pattern thing that goes over your head.

And again, you don't read very well. Maybe you should be one of my students. I get the low readers and they all left me this year reading two or three grades higher than they did when they got to me. I DIDN'T KEEP MY KIDS HOME BECAUSE MY ONLY CHILD IS NOT SCHOOL AGE. I wrote that in bold so it might make it easier for you to read. I don't know. Maybe you have trouble with upper/lower case or something. MY CHILD HAS A WINTER COAT BECAUSE I LIVED IN AN AREA THAT HAD SUBZERO WEATHER.

I know how much you care about the learning of these kids you have never laid eyes on. That one day in school in February would have made all the difference, even if it meant putting them at a health risk. It all makes sense to me now. Thanks.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

No. I'm talking about the Czech Republic. That's in Eastern Europe in case you didn't learn that in school. Miners made more than doctors, etc. And NOT everyone there went to college. There were high schools for waiting tables, high schools for caring for children, high schools for repairing wooden-stringed instruments, and so on.

But you already knew that because if you have a wife from the former Soviet Union, you know about all of Eastern Europe.

Duh! Did you read what the comment was responding to? Or maybe you, who expects your children to go to a 4 year college and have a better opportunity at a job because of it expects a blue-collar worker to get paid the same as a banker. Or maybe the language was too difficult for you to follow. I know what high expectations your teachers had for you. If you showed up to school on a disasterous weather day, you got full points, huh? Because that was all important, not necessarily the learning. So I'll explain it to you. I don't necessarily agree with blue-collar workers getting paid the same as professionals.

It was January and February. And school was closed, so obviously, I was right, and you were wrong. Again, I know you don't know much about geography, but there are different weather conditions in Vermont than in the South. Vermont is colder than the South. It's the tilting of the earth, but nevermind. I'm probably getting too deep for you. So you won't understand that people in Thailand wouldn't know how to drive if there were a snowstorm and they wouldn't have the clothes to keep them warm. Neither do people in the South. Same problem.

And weren't you the one who said I probably was just glad to get the day off? Guess what. Just as I told you, I worked an additional two days than originally scheduled. Yes. We are already on summer vacation because of that whole different weather pattern thing that goes over your head.

And again, you don't read very well. Maybe you should be one of my students. I get the low readers and they all left me this year reading two or three grades higher than they did when they got to me. I DIDN'T KEEP MY KIDS HOME BECAUSE MY ONLY CHILD IS NOT SCHOOL AGE. I wrote that in bold so it might make it easier for you to read. I don't know. Maybe you have trouble with upper/lower case or something. MY CHILD HAS A WINTER COAT BECAUSE I LIVED IN AN AREA THAT HAD SUBZERO WEATHER.

I know how much you care about the learning of these kids you have never laid eyes on. That one day in school in February would have made all the difference, even if it meant putting them at a health risk. It all makes sense to me now. Thanks.

Oh good. Since you mention Czech Republic. I did a lot of business there (for profit) and, in fact, I met Alla there when we were both in Prague for business...making profit. Prague is my favorite city in the world, and I enjoyed immensely visiting and working there. I did not live there, I would have in a heartbeat, but my job in Ukraine often took me there and it was a favorite place for me to go on holiday weekends, just for fun. Now I will give you a chance to revise your remarks about Czech Republic before I blow your inexperienced contentions out of the water.

I was born and raised in the desert of West Texas, so were two of my children. I also lived in Alabama and Kentucky. Which part of that prepared me physiologically to live in Vermont? And mind you, I CHOSE to live here over all other places. My education allows that my skills are in demand worldwide, I can choose to live where I want, it makes little difference where I board an airplane. Or at least it did. I more or less retired at age 49 and make plenty of money working part time on local projects. I travel abroad only for fun now. Please explain how children in the south, or Thailand, are physiologically different than mine.

I do not expect bachelor's degrees from my children. I expect master's degrees. Under circumstances I cannot imagine right now, I may accept a bachelors degree, but why? Why woud I expect or accept less from my children than they are capable of? How would they benefit from that? Two of my sons already have master's degrees and successful careers. The third is just finishing his third year of a 5 year accelerated master's program in Physics at one of the top schools in the world for such studies...yep, a real "rocket scientist", and let me tell you, that sh!t is HARD. He is 19 years old. The youngest is just finishing his 3rd year of high school but he just turned 15 so he is well on his way. He never missed a day because of cold or snow. We do not have "snow days" in Vermont. On rare occasions a school will close because of a power outage caused by a storm. Not much else will do it. You get up earlier, shovel the white stuff off the driveway and walk to the bus stop, go to school with your skis. Several days a week, typically, from December to March. We had 8" of snow on April 28, but it only stayed a few days. After school the bus from the school takes the children into the mountains with their skis for skiing.

Please explain how the children you teach are incapable of the same? Explain why you, their teacher, expect less of the children you teach. I am very anxious to hear you list the limitations of the children you teach. I am of the opinion that they are fully the equal of my children and capabel of the same sort of education and quality of life.

Please be specific

[GabiandVi 34]

Oh good. Since you mention Czech Republic. I did a lot of business there (for profit) and, in fact, I met Alla there when we were both in Prague for business...making profit. Prague is my favorite city in the world, and I enjoyed immensely visiting and working there. I did not live there, I would have in a heartbeat, but my job in Ukraine often took me there and it was a favorite place for me to go on holiday weekends, just for fun. Now I will give you a chance to revise your remarks about Czech Republic before I blow your inexperienced contentions out of the water.

I was born and raised in the desert of West Texas, so were two of my children. I also lived in Alabama and Kentucky. Which part of that prepared me physiologically to live in Vermont? And mind you, I CHOSE to live here over all other places. My education allows that my skills are in demand worldwide, I can choose to live where I want, it makes little difference where I board an airplane. Or at least it did. I more or less retired at age 49 and make plenty of money working part time on local projects. I travel abroad only for fun now. Please explain how children in the south, or Thailand, are physiologically different than mine.

I do not expect bachelor's degrees from my children. I expect master's degrees. Under circumstances I cannot imagine right now, I may accept a bachelors degree, but why? Why woud I expect or accept less from my children than they are capable of? How would they benefit from that? Two of my sons already have master's degrees and successful careers. The third is just finishing his third year of a 5 year accelerated master's program in Physics at one of the top schools in the world for such studies...yep, a real "rocket scientist", and let me tell you, that sh!t is HARD. He is 19 years old. The youngest is just finishing his 3rd year of high school but he just turned 15 so he is well on his way. He never missed a day because of cold or snow. We do not have "snow days" in Vermont. On rare occasions a school will close because of a power outage caused by a storm. Not much else will do it. You get up earlier, shovel the white stuff off the driveway and walk to the bus stop, go to school with your skis. Several days a week, typically, from December to March. We had 8" of snow on April 28, but it only stayed a few days. After school the bus from the school takes the children into the mountains with their skis for skiing.

Please explain how the children you teach are incapable of the same? Explain why you, their teacher, expect less of the children you teach. I am very anxious to hear you list the limitations of the children you teach. I am of the opinion that they are fully the equal of my children and capabel of the same sort of education and quality of life.

Please be specific

I DID live in the CR.

Who works at the gas station where you get your gas filled? Who picks up the garbage in your town? Who works as a teller at your bank? Who manages the local grocery store? Who bags your groceries? Who checks out your groceries? Who delivers your mail? They are all losers and should hang their heads in shame that they did not go to university. That should have been their goal and if it wasn't their goal, they were lazy and had lower than respectable expecations. If that was their goal, they have failed miserably. You and your children are superior to them and you can walk with your heads held high. You can sneer at their miserable existences, their stupidity and unworthy efforts. And you can sleep well that they are no competiton for your sons. And if they all did set their goals where you have set the goals for your children, (they would all have succeeded since the only thing keeping them back was their lack of proper goals) how would your child compete? How would your child have gotten into the university. Or do you envision a world where every student goes to university and becomes a rocket scientist? Do we really need that many rocket scientists? And who would do all the other jobs? Animals? That's what those losers are anyway. Sub-human.

You know every child in the world and you have assessed their abilities, characteristics, what will make them happy, and how they should set and achieve their goals. I, on the other hand, have no clue about my student who struggles with English but can make a car engine sing. I am failing him when I seek ways that he can study the sort of English he needs to get a bank loan, read the newspaper, etc., make informed decisions, and go out and be proud of his achievements in auto-mechanics. You see through that pride for what he really is, a failure who never made it to university, read Shakespeare, learned to speak Mandarin. Much better that he know that he is a failure and take no pride in his love - working on engines. I certainly wouldn't want such a loser who actually thinks he has succeeded working on my car. I would pity him because I am superior. I would sneer at his unworthiness.

I am from a LARGE family. ALL of us, including me, have nothing less than a masters. I am the ONLY child who does not make 6 figures. I chose the job I chose. I DARE you to spend a week in a public high school. I CHALLENGE you.

I agree. EVERY one of my students is capable of success. I just don't measure success by how many degrees a person has or even how much money they make. I challenge and expect all my students to do their best. But I don't consider them less than me because they don't want to go to univerity. I don't consider my student who has struggled her entire life in school but who already runs her own nail shop bringing in nearly 6 figures at the age of 15 somehow a loser.

As for their attitudes and behavior outside of the classroom. I have little control over that except to teach them pride in themselves and a good work ethic - not bitterness and anger. Your attitude undoes every day what I do for my students who don't want to go to university. You reinforce that they should be bitter and ashamed.

You may want all those people who do the jobs you depend on every day to survive to feel that they are not as good or successful and should not be as proud of their hard work as anyone who has gone to college. I'd rather not depend on a bunch of bitter people who do not take pride in their work because their work is shameful and only the rewards of the losers - the consolation prizes.

Again. PLEASE spend a week in an inner city public school classroom and come back and talk to me when you know what you are talking about.

By the way, West Texas and Kentucky regularly get freezing cold. But that's not the point. And I can just about imagine why you chose to live in Vermont.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I DID live in the CR.

Who works at the gas station where you get your gas filled? Who picks up the garbage in your town? Who works as a teller at your bank? Who manages the local grocery store? Who bags your groceries? Who checks out your groceries? Who delivers your mail? They are all losers and should hang their heads in shame that they did not go to university. That should have been their goal and if it wasn't their goal, they were lazy and had lower than respectable expecations. If that was their goal, they have failed miserably. You and your children are superior to them and you can walk with your heads held high. You can sneer at their miserable existences, their stupidity and unworthy efforts. And you can sleep well that they are no competiton for your sons. And if they all did set their goals where you have set the goals for your children, (they would all have succeeded since the only thing keeping them back was their lack of proper goals) how would your child compete? How would your child have gotten into the university. Or do you envision a world where every student goes to university and becomes a rocket scientist? Do we really need that many rocket scientists? And who would do all the other jobs? Animals? That's what those losers are anyway. Sub-human.

You know every child in the world and you have assessed their abilities, characteristics, what will make them happy, and how they should set and achieve their goals. I, on the other hand, have no clue about my student who struggles with English but can make a car engine sing. I am failing him when I seek ways that he can study the sort of English he needs to get a bank loan, read the newspaper, etc., make informed decisions, and go out and be proud of his achievements in auto-mechanics. You see through that pride for what he really is, a failure who never made it to university, read Shakespeare, learned to speak Mandarin. Much better that he know that he is a failure and take no pride in his love - working on engines. I certainly wouldn't want such a loser who actually thinks he has succeeded working on my car. I would pity him because I am superior. I would sneer at his unworthiness.

I am from a LARGE family. ALL of us, including me, have nothing less than a masters. I am the ONLY child who does not make 6 figures. I chose the job I chose. I DARE you to spend a week in a public high school. I CHALLENGE you.

I agree. EVERY one of my students is capable of success. I just don't measure success by how many degrees a person has or even how much money they make. I challenge and expect all my students to do their best. But I don't consider them less than me because they don't want to go to univerity. I don't consider my student who has struggled her entire life in school but who already runs her own nail shop bringing in nearly 6 figures at the age of 15 somehow a loser.

As for their attitudes and behavior outside of the classroom. I have little control over that except to teach them pride in themselves and a good work ethic - not bitterness and anger. Your attitude undoes every day what I do for my students who don't want to go to university. You reinforce that they should be bitter and ashamed.

You may want all those people who do the jobs you depend on every day to survive to feel that they are not as good or successful and should not be as proud of their hard work as anyone who has gone to college. I'd rather not depend on a bunch of bitter people who do not take pride in their work because their work is shameful and only the rewards of the losers - the consolation prizes.

Again. PLEASE spend a week in an inner city public school classroom and come back and talk to me when you know what you are talking about.

By the way, West Texas and Kentucky regularly get freezing cold. But that's not the point. And I can just about imagine why you chose to live in Vermont.

Non answers as usual. Tell me, for example why inner city kids are not capable. Be specific. I guess your kids will bag groceries for me and my kids. And you are OK with that because you are their teacher and you don't expect anything more of yourself or the kids you teach.

I think we really need to raise, maybe triple the pay, of teachers in this country and then eliminate the tenaure system and hire qualified people. Tell the others to go bag groceries with their former students. Such a level of low expectation is disgusting from an "educator".

I would like to hear why you "imagine" I live in Vermont. Enlighten us. I will wait for your next rambling, non-specific, vague diatribe. You may fool uneducated people, you do not fool me.

Question...What is Skoda?

[evli1966 88]

I have been at this career business a long time, enough to be semi-retired and I'll let you in on a secret. In order to be successful, in order to stand out, in order to rise to the top, in order to make a lot of money, do you know what you need to do? IN ANY job? With ANY education?

Show up on time, Be reliable. Be friendly to the customer(s), be respectful to your manager, never talk back, never make excuses, never say it is "not your job". What's the big secret? Show me a job that isn't that way. Show me a CEO with triple masters degrees that doesn't do those things.

Your problem is your incredibly low expectations of the children you teach. Very sad. Teachers really need to get out in the "for profit" world for a whle.

NO college education here; I work for what I have and follow the above in my job and have been rewarded well.

A College education is no Guarantee.

But teaching your children as they grow the importance of completing what they start, repectful competition (there are winners and losers; do not let teachers lie to your children), never make an excuse (there will be times when an event will happen but an excuse will not be needed); teach them if they do not give 100% effort they will not recieve 100% back; LIFE IS NOT FAIR; ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS.

[GabiandVi 34]

Non answers as usual. Tell me, for example why inner city kids are not capable. Be specific. I guess your kids will bag groceries for me and my kids. And you are OK with that because you are their teacher and you don't expect anything more of yourself or the kids you teach.

I think we really need to raise, maybe triple the pay, of teachers in this country and then eliminate the tenaure system and hire qualified people. Tell the others to go bag groceries with their former students. Such a level of low expectation is disgusting from an "educator".

I would like to hear why you "imagine" I live in Vermont. Enlighten us. I will wait for your next rambling, non-specific, vague diatribe. You may fool uneducated people, you do not fool me.

Question...What is Skoda?

"Skoda" is a car. But "skoda?" Well, I "skoda" anyone who bags groceries for you. I'm sure they feel your disdain and have to suck up your rude, superior attitude toward them. And Mr. Skoda? He was my neighbor. (Aren't I just so smart? )

What all your "education" has NOT gotten you is an understanding that when the ONLY acceptable goal is going to university and getting a degree, anything less is UNACCEPTABLE. So your grocery checker is unacceptable. I hope they know it too, the stupid scum.

By the way, my student who could make a car engine sing? I talk about him because he opened my eyes to the true needs of our students, the true purpose of public education, and the best ways to make our population productive, contributing, and good citizenry. That was not in the inner city. It was in an area as affluent as any in the US. He was from an affluent family. He was 18 and couldn't get to high school because he couldn't pass the exit exam due to his English level. His father wouldn't talk to him about becoming a auto-mechanic because that was only for people who couldn't make it to university. He owns his own shop now and employs a lot of people.

Again. Spend just one week in an inner city school. In fact, spend one week in your son's school. I sure as hell hope that there is a diversity of goals and desires there. Because if EVERYONE in your son's class has exactly the same goal and desire, someone is going to end up very disappointed. I hope it's not your son. If it is, I hope he finds happiness and sense of pride in his success in another pursuit. He certainly won't get it from you.

Your other son might be a rocket scientist, but if he is anything like you, he is incapable of open-mindedness. There you go. There are different types of capability. I don't think you would be capable of surviving in a classroom. Nothing wrong with that. I would not be capable of selling geico insurance. Nothing wrong with that, either. I would not be capable of being a world class snow skier. Nothing wrong with that.

You are an elitist but you are either too blind to see it or proud of it. Meanwhile, I'm busy bringing up my students' scores on standardized tests. That should be enough for you. You don't need to worry that I seek to instill pride in self and prepare them to be the best plumber, welder, truck driver, physician, rocket scientist, grocery checker, mail carrier, neurosurgeon, tomato grower, shrimper, educator they can be. It won't get in the way of your sons' success. And, whether you are capable of understanding it or not, I'm making the future lives of your sons better as a result. No need to thank me.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

NO college education here; I work for what I have and follow the above in my job and have been rewarded well.

A College education is no Guarantee.

But teaching your children as they grow the importance of completing what they start, repectful competition (there are winners and losers; do not let teachers lie to your children), never make an excuse (there will be times when an event will happen but an excuse will not be needed); teach them if they do not give 100% effort they will not recieve 100% back; LIFE IS NOT FAIR; ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS.

I have NEVER said it is a guarantee. To you, or my children or anyone else. Ever. I note ONLY that almost NO ONE on welfare has a college education. I have NEVER said that one cannot be successful without a college education. EVER.

I simply said we should EXPECT the best from our children that they can achieve and demand that from them. So far NO ONE has told me why we should not expect the ability to go to college from any particular group of children.

High school drop outs make up the vast majority of welfare recipients (who I do not consider successful by any stretch) High school graduates make up a far smaller percentage. Almost ZERO are college graduates. This is NOT a coincidence.

[GabiandVi 34]

P.S. Just this morning a student of mine caught up to me on facebook and we were chatting. He's going to Oxford in the fall on a PhD program for radiobiology. I was touched when he told me that I was his favorite teacher and that I had played a large role in motivating him. I taught him English. It wasn't his first language.

You certainly wouldn't want a teacher like that anywhere near your son's classroom.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

"Skoda" is a car. But "skoda?" Well, I "skoda" anyone who bags groceries for you. I'm sure they feel your disdain and have to suck up your rude, superior attitude toward them. And Mr. Skoda? He was my neighbor. (Aren't I just so smart? )

What all your "education" has NOT gotten you is an understanding that when the ONLY acceptable goal is going to university and getting a degree, anything less is UNACCEPTABLE. So your grocery checker is unacceptable. I hope they know it too, the stupid scum.

By the way, my student who could make a car engine sing? I talk about him because he opened my eyes to the true needs of our students, the true purpose of public education, and the best ways to make our population productive, contributing, and good citizenry. That was not in the inner city. It was in an area as affluent as any in the US. He was from an affluent family. He was 18 and couldn't get to high school because he couldn't pass the exit exam due to his English level. His father wouldn't talk to him about becoming a auto-mechanic because that was only for people who couldn't make it to university. He owns his own shop now and employs a lot of people.

Again. Spend just one week in an inner city school. In fact, spend one week in your son's school. I sure as hell hope that there is a diversity of goals and desires there. Because if EVERYONE in your son's class has exactly the same goal and desire, someone is going to end up very disappointed. I hope it's not your son. If it is, I hope he finds happiness and sense of pride in his success in another pursuit. He certainly won't get it from you.

Your other son might be a rocket scientist, but if he is anything like you, he is incapable of open-mindedness. There you go. There are different types of capability. I don't think you would be capable of surviving in a classroom. Nothing wrong with that. I would not be capable of selling geico insurance. Nothing wrong with that, either. I would not be capable of being a world class snow skier. Nothing wrong with that.

You are an elitist but you are either too blind to see it or proud of it. Meanwhile, I'm busy bringing up my students' scores on standardized tests. That should be enough for you. You don't need to worry that I seek to instill pride in self and prepare them to be the best plumber, welder, truck driver, physician, rocket scientist, grocery checker, mail carrier, neurosurgeon, tomato grower, shrimper, educator they can be. It won't get in the way of your sons' success. And, whether you are capable of understanding it or not, I'm making the future lives of your sons better as a result. No need to thank me.

Skoda is an industrial/financial conglomerate based in CZ Republic, yes they make cars (damn good ones) in addition to thousands of other products and are a holding company for many dozens of famous name products, some of which you have in your home. Can you name one? Your answer is that of one that googled "Skoda" or at best has been to Prague on an afternoon bus tour or passed through Prague airport and saw some Skoda cars on display in the terminal. Congratulations. The rest of your answer regarding "Skoda" is inane BS. Please do not lecture to me about the CZ Republic if you do not know what Skoda is. It is like saying you lived in the US but that Proctor & Gamble is a laundry detergent. Anyone so ignorant of the CZ Republic has no idea why miners made more than doctors.

You simply cannot do anything but bluster and spew vague BS.

You cannot speak from experience. I believe your students are much more capable than you do and for that I am an elitist. So be it. You are their teacher, I guess they are limited by that. Better an elitist than a racist of low expectations. My son's future will not be made better by you or your low expectations. I doubt you will be accepting a professorship to the Moscow Physical Technical Institute anytime soon. Besides, they go to school when it snows in Moscow, you couldn't handle it.

[GabiandVi 34]

I have NEVER said it is a guarantee. To you, or my children or anyone else. Ever. I note ONLY that almost NO ONE on welfare has a college education. I have NEVER said that one cannot be successful without a college education. EVER.

I simply said we should EXPECT the best from our children that they can achieve and demand that from them. So far NO ONE has told me why we should not expect the ability to go to college from any particular group of children.

High school drop outs make up the vast majority of welfare recipients (who I do not consider successful by any stretch) High school graduates make up a far smaller percentage. Almost ZERO are college graduates. This is NOT a coincidence.

Who said that any particular group of students should not expect to go to college? In any classroom there will be students who will succeed in college and students who will succeed with no college. Why should we set college as the only acceptable goal? That's just close-minded, counter-productive, and just plain wrong.

The OP was about making 12th grade optional. If it were optional and we offered true alternatives so that students could choose a college track or some other sort of track toward learning their trade, we wouldn't have so many high school drop outs. The greatest reason for the number of high school drop outs is that they don't see what they are getting out of high school that will serve them in their chosen fields. That or they become discouraged because, while they could ace a test on how to put together an engine, they can't get their heads around Shakespeare, for example, and they are failing that course.

A lot of my students just want to get started working right away. I STRONGLY discourage them from dropping out, but the truth is the curriculum is designed to prepare students for college, not for welding, auto-mechanics, etc. I would like to see them able to pursue their strengths in school, but you would consider them losers if they were not to go the college track. I'm fighting that attitude everyday to make a better future for my daughter. I don't want her to have to support students who lose their way because the only way is college and that's not their wish or their strength. You would rather hold that same goal up for everyone and spout that anyone who doesn't have that goal isn't holding a high enough standard for themselves or others. Since it is not necessary and not even possible for even HALF the population to go to college, you are ensuring that at least half the population fails at the only acceptable goal. That is elitism and it is harmful to your son's futures, even if you can't see it.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

P.S. Just this morning a student of mine caught up to me on facebook and we were chatting. He's going to Oxford in the fall on a PhD program for radiobiology. I was touched when he told me that I was his favorite teacher and that I had played a large role in motivating him. I taught him English. It wasn't his first language.

You certainly wouldn't want a teacher like that anywhere near your son's classroom.

You are right I don't. Anyone that does not expect the same ability from her other students can just stay far away from my sons. Or maybe move to Utah.

Obviously he can do it...you haven't told us why the others can't? Who decides? You?

[GabiandVi 34]

Skoda is an industrial/financial conglomerate based in CZ Republic, yes they make cars (damn good ones) in addition to thousands of other products and are a holding company for many dozens of famous name products, some of which you have in your home. Can you name one? Your answer is that of one that googled "Skoda" or at best has been to Prague on an afternoon bus tour or passed through Prague airport and saw some Skoda cars on display in the terminal. Congratulations. The rest of your answer regarding "Skoda" is inane BS. Please do not lecture to me about the CZ Republic if you do not know what Skoda is. It is like saying you lived in the US but that Proctor & Gamble is a laundry detergent. Anyone so ignorant of the CZ Republic has no idea why miners made more than doctors.

Bullsh!t. If you don't know what that skoda means pity, you are not as educated about the CR as you think you are. It's a very common word in the CR. If you don't know that Skoda was the name of the man who started making Skodas, you are not as educated about the company as you think you are. You don't have to believe that I lived in the CR about 15 KM outside of Prague 10 in a town on the Labe. If it makes you feel better to think I'm a liar, go for it. It says more about you than it does about me. Why I would lie about something like that I can't imagine, but if you can think of a reason, it only reveals how your mind works and what you are likely to do. Now I have to doubt everything you have said about yourself.

[GabiandVi 34]

Who decides? You?

Apparantly, you do.

I would personally like to leave it up to the child as long as he is happy and putting forth his best effort.