Is Testing And Making Sure People Are Qualified Really Racism?

[Heracles 417]

It is also worth noting that most of the time testing is put out to third party tender and it is unlikely that any of the board had input in the test or the questions posed. It is also worth noting AGAIN that there is little to suggest that anything beyond the basic pass had any meaning in determining the aptitude of a would be candidate to firefighting. In other words an 89 score and above does not GUARANTEE A MORE SUITABLE CANDIDATE GOT THE JOB.

Basically, let's lower the standard to ensure certain people are accepted.

[DEDixon 39]

a physical strength example should not be used as an example here. this has zero to do with strength so mentioning it serves only to cloud the issue.

as long as the FD considers all applicants equally after the test, it is a fair to select only those who scored above a certain score. it is merely to weed out too many applicants. a test is where many employers start to weed out applicants.

and don't feed me the BS about the smart and brightest isn't always the best employees. it is true they aren't, but that is life.

[_Simpson_ 250]

It's ridiculous to want to get to the bottom of why for the most part black people are excluded from the interview stage of the application process to become firefighters?

Get rid of all the pointless emotional rhetoric and the pertinent questions are these:

1) Did the test have a built in bias that favoured a particular type of candidate?

2) Did the fact that they chose to interview ONLY those who gained a score of 89 or higher preclude candidates who would have passed the REQUIREMENTS for the job application and who would in fact have made at least as good if not better firefighters?

3) Did the city knowingly ignore the fact that a particular type of candidate seemed to be favoured over other candidates and neglect to ensure there was no discrimination against a particular demographic?

Without knowing the answers to these questions, everything said is pure speculation one way or another. It is interesting that some seem so adamant that they know the truth

[Heracles 417]

Well it depends what you mean by "we"

"We" are not to blame for the difference in quality of education (or success, or crime) in black communities because "we" didn't exist when there was slavery or segregation, the reasons for these problems up until this point in time. The journey for equality for the AA community has been long, too long for sure but all we can do is try to set good examples and opportunities, not for AA especially but for Americans as a whole. You know what I mean, the reputation America has built for itself in establishing opportunities for those willing to work hard enough to succeed. I believe this includes ignoring issues such as this if it really doesn't mean anything - reverse racism isn't going to help anyone either. I hope that people aren't so tired of white guilt that they ignore real racism in situations where it does exist though.

The playing field will eventually level itself better I'm sure.

The local cultural crime activities need to be dealt with, gang activity here or drug dealing chavs that hang around chip shops. Just cause they manifest themselves differently they are pretty much the roots of the same. Maybe they need to be handled a little differently I don't know, there are many people who would like to say that being race blind is unhelpful and unrealistic. It wouldn't be the first time I've been called naive.

Your experience in the UK will be quite different to that of crime here. Chavs will look like choir girls in comparison. AA now have access to the same opportunities as everyone else. It's ultimately their choice whether they decide to make something of themselves and become functioning members of society or not. While I understand the poor have it a lot tougher here than they do in either UK, Canada or Australia, AA now have the same opportunity as everyone else to succeed. If not more, considering affirmative action.

What's evident in the mindset of some here is that if they don't make it in sport or entertainment, they shouldn't don't both trying anything else. It's not uncommon to hear a normal successful AA be told they are just acting white for wanting to get ahead; that is, when doing so legally and without being pigeonholed to the entertainment industry.

[Peikko 1,575]

a physical strength example should not be used as an example here. this has zero to do with strength so mentioning it serves only to cloud the issue.

as long as the FD considers all applicants equally after the test, it is a fair to select only those who scored above a certain score. it is merely to weed out too many applicants. a test is where many employers start to weed out applicants.

and don't feed me the BS about the smart and brightest isn't always the best employees. it is true they aren't, but that is life.

I am sure a company could apply all kinds of bias and skews to prevent certain demographics from being employed if they wanted, and that's life. However, the city is compelled to ensure that people are not discriminated against or favoured just because of the demographic to which they happen to inhabit. Strange I know, but true none the less

[SMOKE 1,426]

I am not making any claims

In other words an 89 score and above does not GUARANTEE A MORE SUITABLE CANDIDATE GOT THE JOB.

niether am i. you did also see that the city did not agree w/ the courts findings either, didn't you? like i said. i want the best & brightest climbing the ladder to pick my azz out of a 10th floor window of a building on fire. not someone that is qualified. the best & brightest.

[Peikko 1,575]

You assume that for some reason this is the definitive test for aptitude for firefighters even though this test was never designed to be more than an indicator of those who should be up for consideration and that is why it is more likely than not that passing the test with an A grade is no more significant than passing it with a C grade. Clearly many of you have no understanding of testing at all.

[Heracles 417]

I don't want any bars to be lowered. If you think that, then ONCE AGAIN you have fundamentally misunderstood every post I have made. How surprising.

I can read between the lines. This is just another example of the crusade certain Caucasians in the US seem to be on, like they are trying to prove something.

Have a look at any thread on here where the opposite is posted and you will find that one of two things will happen. Those who defend such laughable silliness will either not post at all or the few that do post will downplay its significance and accuse those who point out the hypocrisy - the double standards - as whining.

Once again: Game, set and match for booooooyah....

Edited May 24, 2010 by Booyah!

[KaiserD 12]

Your experience in the UK will be quite different to that of crime here. Chavs will look like choir girls in comparison. AA now have access to the same opportunities as everyone else. It's ultimately their choice whether they decide to make something of themselves and become functioning members of society or not. While I understand the poor have it a lot tougher here than they do in either UK, Canada or Australia, AA now have the same opportunity as everyone else to succeed. If not more, considering affirmative action.

What's evident in the mindset of some here is that if they don't make it in sport or entertainment, they shouldn't don't both trying anything else. It's not uncommon to hear a normal successful AA be told they are just acting white for wanting to get ahead; that is, when doing so legally and without being pigeonholed to the entertainment industry.

Sure, the only reason I really mentioned it is because I live in a black neighborhood. I've lived here for 3 and in Runcorn for 4 years and aside from guns I find a lot of it pretty comparable. I would even go as far as saying that much of the modern chav culuture (if it can be said to have one!) is influenced by rap, like a copy cat. But at the same time I'm aware that my experience is limited - I don't live in the middle of gang territory, there aren't needles outside my front door e.t.c. I'm sure there's drugs going on but it's low key and not obvious. I had to pass through a ghettoish area that was like part of Castlefields (boarded windows, lovely)though that made me pretty nervous lol

You know though the thing I noticed most is that most black people who are complaining about their opportunities, who are racist, use their `hood mentality to gain the trust of other black people in the attempt to take advantage of them. If it's borrowing money, fraud, breaking into their property e.t.c. "Oh hey bro, you know we're straight right? Do you think you could hook me up" ...then the guy's gone, or hanging low until he/she can find the next unsuspecting victim. Seen this sooooo many times. They don't target rich people, or rich white people, they target people who are struggling as much as they are.

I don't think chavs discriminate who they try to do over lol

[Jenn! 918]

You assume that for some reason this is the definitive test for aptitude for firefighters even though this test was never designed to be more than an indicator of those who should be up for consideration and that is why it is more likely than not that passing the test with an A grade is no more significant than passing it with a C grade. Clearly many of you have no understanding of testing at all.

Argh! I think we need a Venn diagram!

[SMOKE 1,426]

.

Edited May 24, 2010 by SMOKE

[Peikko 1,575]

Argh! I think we need a Venn diagram!

It would take more than a bloody Venn diagram to convince anyone in this thread that what is at question is the validity of the testing methodology as propo aptitude as apposed to some attempt to demand for every white person recruited the city must recruit a black person.

[SMOKE 1,426]

I am not suggesting FOR ONE INSTANT that the city lowers any standards simply to make up quotas of black people and if you understood anything I have written on this subject, or indeed the position of those challenging the status quo, you would not make such an absurd and frankly bigoted comment.

what absurd & bigoted comment did i make? oh you mean that i want the highest scoring testers coming to save my life?

[Peikko 1,575]

what absurd & bigoted comment did i make? oh you mean that i want the highest scoring testers coming to save my life?

The highest scorers of that particular test are not necessarily the brightest and best. I would have thought, if you were interested in achieving the best you would want to know for sure that the test worked properly. Obviously, you don't, or you assume that only 10% or less of black people applying for a job as a firefighter in that city are capable of being the 'brightest and best' firefighters. I think you can see why that might be construed as bigoted, no?

Edited May 24, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[Heracles 417]

Once again proving the bigot that you are BY. However, think what you like, because invariably you do, despite all piles of evidence that you are wrong, particularly in your quest to prove that I suffer from a severe case of white guilt

Cleo, in four years I could count on one hand the times you have posted anything pertaining to evidence. Don't even attempt to use that word.