LIne Item, Yay or Nay

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I tried making a poll, but apparently the kinks haven't been worked out yet, so I'll just list the various parts of the health care bill as bullet points, and anyone replying can copy and paste the bullet points along with their 'yays' and 'nays'.

..........................................

Line Item, Yay or Nay - which of the following do you approve or disapprove of in the final health care bill that passed?

(apologies for the extra bullets...the editor doesn't allow me to adjust line spacing)

• Would expand coverage to 32 million Americans who are currently uninsured.
• Individuals and families who make between 100 percent - 400 percent of the Federal Poverty Level (FPL) and want to purchase their own health insurance on an exchange are eligible for subsidies. They cannot be eligible for Medicare, Medicaid and cannot be covered by an employer. Eligible buyers receive premium credits and there is a cap for how much they have to contribute to their premiums on a sliding scale.
• Closes the Medicare prescription drug "donut hole" by 2020. Seniors who hit the donut hole by 2010 will receive a $250 rebate.
• Beginning in 2011, seniors in the gap will receive a 50 percent discount on brand name drugs.
• Beginning in 2011, seniors in the gap will receive a 50 percent discount on brand name drugs. The bill also includes $500 billion in Medicare cuts over the next decade.
• Six months after enactment, insurance companies could no longer denying children coverage based on a preexisting condition.
• Starting in 2014, insurance companies cannot deny coverage to anyone with preexisting conditions.
• Insurance companies must allow children to stay on their parent's insurance plans until age 26th.
• No federal funds can be used to pay for abortions except in the case of rape, incest or health of the mother.
• 
  
• Illegal immigrants will not be allowed to buy health insurance in the exchanges -- even if they pay completely with their own money.
• Technically, there is no employer mandate. Employers with more than 50 employees must provide health insurance or pay a fine of $2000 per worker each year if any worker receives federal subsidies to purchase health insurance. Fines applied to entire number of employees minus some allowances.
• In 2014, everyone must purchase health insurance or face a $695 annual fine. There are some exceptions for low-income people.
• Expands Medicaid to include 133 percent of federal poverty level which is $29,327 for a family of four.
• Illegal immigrants are not eligible for Medicaid.

[CDAgirlMI 51]

I tried making a poll, but apparently the kinks haven't been worked out yet, so I'll just list the various parts of the health care bill as bullet points, and anyone replying can copy and paste the bullet points along with their 'yays' and 'nays'.

..........................................

Line Item, Yay or Nay - which of the following do you approve or disapprove of in the final health care bill that passed?

(apologies for the extra bullets...the editor doesn't allow me to adjust line spacing)

• Would expand coverage to 32 million Americans who are currently uninsured.
• Individuals and families who make between 100 percent - 400 percent of the Federal Poverty Level (FPL) and want to purchase their own health insurance on an exchange are eligible for subsidies. They cannot be eligible for Medicare, Medicaid and cannot be covered by an employer. Eligible buyers receive premium credits and there is a cap for how much they have to contribute to their premiums on a sliding scale.
• Closes the Medicare prescription drug "donut hole" by 2020. Seniors who hit the donut hole by 2010 will receive a $250 rebate.
• Beginning in 2011, seniors in the gap will receive a 50 percent discount on brand name drugs.
• Beginning in 2011, seniors in the gap will receive a 50 percent discount on brand name drugs. The bill also includes $500 billion in Medicare cuts over the next decade.
• Six months after enactment, insurance companies could no longer denying children coverage based on a preexisting condition.
• Starting in 2014, insurance companies cannot deny coverage to anyone with preexisting conditions.
• Insurance companies must allow children to stay on their parent's insurance plans until age 26th.
• No federal funds can be used to pay for abortions except in the case of rape, incest or health of the mother.
• 
  
• Illegal immigrants will not be allowed to buy health insurance in the exchanges -- even if they pay completely with their own money.
• Technically, there is no employer mandate. Employers with more than 50 employees must provide health insurance or pay a fine of $2000 per worker each year if any worker receives federal subsidies to purchase health insurance. Fines applied to entire number of employees minus some allowances.
• In 2014, everyone must purchase health insurance or face a $695 annual fine. There are some exceptions for low-income people.
• Expands Medicaid to include 133 percent of federal poverty level which is $29,327 for a family of four.
• Illegal immigrants are not eligible for Medicaid.

Don't agree on the abortion part ..to a certain degree. Last time I checked birth control wasn't 100%. If something happened with the contraceptive & the girl/woman got pregnant, she should be allowed to have an abortion if she chooses.

The parts about illegals...agree. They're not allowed to be here. Period.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

* Would expand coverage to 32 million Americans who are currently uninsured.

VETO - because it's erroneous.

* Beginning in 2011, seniors in the gap will receive a 50 percent discount on brand name drugs. The bill also includes $500 billion in Medicare cuts over the next decade.

VETO - Cutting $500 billion out of a system that already doesn't payout enough, is only going to cause more problems.

* Starting in 2014, insurance companies cannot deny coverage to anyone with preexisting conditions.

VETO - If this is a big enough problem, then I would suggest the market be used to create an exchange/insurance program by these people for these people and with other charitable donations. No reason to force companies looking out for their interests to cover those who will add on to the burden of others.

* Insurance companies must allow children to stay on their parent's insurance plans until age 26th.

VETO - Age 23 was fine. Make the damn kids get a job and stop brats living on mommy and daddy.

* Technically, there is no employer mandate. Employers with more than 50 employees must provide health insurance or pay a fine of $2000 per worker each year if any worker receives federal subsidies to purchase health insurance. Fines applied to entire number of employees minus some allowances.

VETO - This should never be forced on companies or individuals, no matter whether you think it should be given or not. On top of that, some small businesses have way too much overhead for this to even be affordable for what they are requiring. This will have a mainstream effect on costs in the market all across the board.

* In 2014, everyone must purchase health insurance or face a $695 annual fine. There are some exceptions for low-income people.

VETO - To put it simply, they just put the lives of IRS employees in danger if the court somehow erroneously upholds this. You are saying, if you wish to breathe, you must buy this product. I say #### OFF.

Don't agree on the abortion part ..to a certain degree. Last time I checked birth control wasn't 100%. If something happened with the contraceptive & the girl/woman got pregnant, she should be allowed to have an abortion if she chooses.

The parts about illegals...agree. They're not allowed to be here. Period.

She can still get an abortion. It just means taxpayers won't pay for it, she will.

[Ali G. 37]

Don't agree on the abortion part ..to a certain degree. Last time I checked birth control wasn't 100%. If something happened with the contraceptive & the girl/woman got pregnant, she should be allowed to have an abortion if she chooses.

The parts about illegals...agree. They're not allowed to be here. Period.

She still is allowed to have an abortion, the only difference is that the taxpayer will not fund it.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

* Starting in 2014, insurance companies cannot deny coverage to anyone with preexisting conditions.

VETO - If this is a big enough problem, then I would suggest the market be used to create an exchange/insurance program by these people for these people and with other charitable donations. No reason to force companies looking out for their interests to cover those who will add on to the burden of others.

Interesting. Of course, the concept of sharing risk is what insurance is really all about. Anyone with an employer sponsored plan today has the benefit of not being denied coverage on the basis of pre-existing conditions and, on the flip-side, those w/o pre-existing conditions pay for those that have them. The reason why that works is that employers bring large pools of individuals to the insurance companies and the idea behind the exchange is to enable individuals to pool together just like employees of large corporations do.

[CDAgirlMI 51]

My mistake...read that part wrong.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

* Would expand coverage to 32 million Americans who are currently uninsured.

VETO - because it's erroneous.

* Beginning in 2011, seniors in the gap will receive a 50 percent discount on brand name drugs. The bill also includes $500 billion in Medicare cuts over the next decade.

VETO - Cutting $500 billion out of a system that already doesn't payout enough, is only going to cause more problems.

* Starting in 2014, insurance companies cannot deny coverage to anyone with preexisting conditions.

VETO - If this is a big enough problem, then I would suggest the market be used to create an exchange/insurance program by these people for these people and with other charitable donations. No reason to force companies looking out for their interests to cover those who will add on to the burden of others.

* Insurance companies must allow children to stay on their parent's insurance plans until age 26th.

VETO - Age 23 was fine. Make the damn kids get a job and stop brats living on mommy and daddy.

* Technically, there is no employer mandate. Employers with more than 50 employees must provide health insurance or pay a fine of $2000 per worker each year if any worker receives federal subsidies to purchase health insurance. Fines applied to entire number of employees minus some allowances.

VETO - This should never be forced on companies or individuals, no matter whether you think it should be given or not. On top of that, some small businesses have way too much overhead for this to even be affordable for what they are requiring. This will have a mainstream effect on costs in the market all across the board.

* In 2014, everyone must purchase health insurance or face a $695 annual fine. There are some exceptions for low-income people.

VETO - To put it simply, they just put the lives of IRS employees in danger if the court somehow erroneously upholds this. You are saying, if you wish to breathe, you must buy this product. I say #### OFF.

Veto?

Where's the rest of the bullet list? I'd like to know which parts you agree with as well. Don't be shy now.

[Ali G. 37]

* Would expand coverage to 32 million Americans who are currently uninsured.

VETO - because it's erroneous.

You do understand the notion of universal right?

* Beginning in 2011, seniors in the gap will receive a 50 percent discount on brand name drugs. The bill also includes $500 billion in Medicare cuts over the next decade.

VETO - Cutting $500 billion out of a system that already doesn't payout enough, is only going to cause more problems.

Americans already pays more than double per capita in health care costs yet don't get anything special and have a shorter life span.

* Starting in 2014, insurance companies cannot deny coverage to anyone with preexisting conditions.

VETO - If this is a big enough problem, then I would suggest the market be used to create an exchange/insurance program by these people for these people and with other charitable donations. No reason to force companies looking out for their interests to cover those who will add on to the burden of others.

Funny, I went over the Constitution you keep under your pillow and fail to find the world corporation, look out for your own or profit. This attitude is what is starting to change in America. It's a country by the people for the people. Furthermore, no matter how deep the pockets of corporations are, you cannot suppress the will or voice of the people. Though, it does come across that everything you hate about government, you have no issue with a company doing.

* Technically, there is no employer mandate. Employers with more than 50 employees must provide health insurance or pay a fine of $2000 per worker each year if any worker receives federal subsidies to purchase health insurance. Fines applied to entire number of employees minus some allowances.

VETO - This should never be forced on companies or individuals, no matter whether you think it should be given or not. On top of that, some small businesses have way too much overhead for this to even be affordable for what they are requiring. This will have a mainstream effect on costs in the market all across the board.

Actually this drives their cost down. Not having such a massive expense is why small business owners are so successful abroad. Any small business owner against this bill does not know what the heck they are talking about. Furthermore, need to take up a basic accounting class.

* In 2014, everyone must purchase health insurance or face a $695 annual fine. There are some exceptions for low-income people.

VETO - To put it simply, they just put the lives of IRS employees in danger if the court somehow erroneously upholds this. You are saying, if you wish to breathe, you must buy this product. I say #### OFF.

Do they use lead pipes in Texas or is it all of the runoff from corporations dumping chemicals into the environment there?

Edited March 23, 2010 by Ali G.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

You do understand the notion of universal right?

Those people have the ability to get insurance now for the most part. That's why it's erroneous.

Americans already pays more than double per capita in health care costs yet don't get anything special and have a shorter life span.

"health care costs" is the key word here, not insurance. Cutting an insurance program like this that is already failing, is just going to pass those costs on elsewhere.

Funny, I went over the Constitution you keep under your pillow and fail to find the world corporation, look out for your own or profit. This attitude is what is starting to change in America. It's a country by the people for the people. Furthermore, no matter how deep the pockets of corporations are, you cannot suppress the will or voice of the people. Though, it does come across that everything you hate about government, you have no issue with a company doing.

You didn't read what I wrote did you?

Actually this drives their cost down. Not having such a massive expense is why small business owners are so successful abroad. Any small business owner against this bill does not know what the heck they are talking about. Furthermore, need to take up a basic accounting class.

LOL, forcing a business owner to provide health care who might not already is not going to drive their costs down. You're a damned fool if you think adding hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs is going to help them? Are you nuts? It's actually cheaper to pay the $2,000 fine and be done with it.....

Do they use lead pipes in Texas or is it all of the runoff from corporations dumping chemicals into the environment there?

I know you don't understand individual liberty, so I'll let this slide.

[Ali G. 37]

Those people have the ability to get insurance now for the most part. That's why it's erroneous.

So everyone must be fabricating their experiences and denials. Maybe I dreamed up my own experience of the current or should I say previous shitty system you had - which I wouldn't wish on Bin Laden let alone other Americans.

"health care costs" is the key word here, not insurance. Cutting an insurance program like this that is already failing, is just going to pass those costs on elsewhere.

Dam straight! Get rid of the profit seeking middleman and pass the payments straight to the doctor. It's what we call Bulk billing in AUS. Not only do the doctors receive more but the government pays out less. Win/Win.

You didn't read what I wrote did you?

I read through it. A corporation does not have a right to make a profit or rip off the American people. About time the faux legal system set this straight. Furthermore, the government is established by the people and for the people. Certainly not for lobbyist, conglomerates, corporations or special interest groups. Hence those terms not being anywhere in the Constitution.

LOL, forcing a business owner to provide health care who might not already is not going to drive their costs down. You're a damned fool if you think adding hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs is going to help them? Are you nuts? It's actually cheaper to pay the $2,000 fine and be done with it.....

Great, they pay the fine and their workers are covered. However, apart from the needy, not too many employees would stick around a business that does not reimburse them accordingly. Also why I avoid small businesses like the plague. Not to mention, the reason so many foreign corporations can compete so well - have the upper hand - against US corporations is because they are not burdened with health care costs. Then again US businesses have a sweet deal with this limitless supply of workers, skewing supply to their favor.

I know you don't understand individual liberty, so I'll let this slide.

Inflicting harm on others you disagree with does not equate to liberty.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Ali G.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

Nay...to all of it.

Doesn't matter if I agree with a particular line item or not, I do not agree with a government mandate.

some numbers corrections. "32 million" has been acknowledged to include illegal immigrants which are not (supposedly) covered so therefore theplan does not cover 32 million people (10% of the population) but more like 5% of the population. This is a ridiculous, over the top "fix" to benefit 5% of the people of this country.

Illegals will, in fact, be covered. They will not pay taxes for it, though this situation in itself is not different than the current policy, so it is a moot point, really. There is NO change for illegal immigrants. If the plan were designed NOT to benefit illegal immigrants, then the law would require proof of legal presence in the country for medical treatment. It doesn't and specifically did not include this protection of US citizens and legal residents.

Requiring private, for profit, insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions is like requiring an auto insurance company to give you insurance and cover accident costs AFTER you have an accident. This provision has ONE purpose...to run private insurance out of business and leave people with no choice but to "buy" government insurance. While the "single payer" system is specifically not mentioned, it will be phased in by the requirements of the bill over time. Liberals know this, it will take probably, less than 10 years.

[Empress of Groovy 373]

Paul, I get the impression that you don't have an understanding of how the individual health insurance market works. People with a long list of conditions and former conditions (such as cancer) are considered uninsurable, and it's nearly impossible for them to get meaningful coverage. Some states have high-risk pools, but these policies tend to be extremely expensive. Several of your posts have suggested that you're not considering this in your argument. You might also be surprised at the seemingly innocuous conditions that would put one into a high-risk (i.e., uninsurable) category.

I've been self-employed for about a third of my working life, so I know what a nightmare the individual market is, and I'm basically healthy. This bill will do a lot to help self-employed people and small business owners get decent coverage for themselves and their families. I agree that the bill is nowhere near perfect, but it's a good start.

And charitable donations to fund a high-risk pool? Are you joking?

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Paul, I get the impression that you don't have an understanding of how the individual health insurance market works. People with a long list of conditions and former conditions (such as cancer) are considered uninsurable, and it's nearly impossible for them to get meaningful coverage. Some states have high-risk pools, but these policies tend to be extremely expensive. Several of your posts have suggested that you're not considering this in your argument. You might also be surprised at the seemingly innocuous conditions that would put one into a high-risk (i.e., uninsurable) category.

I've been self-employed for about a third of my working life, so I know what a nightmare the individual market is, and I'm basically healthy. This bill will do a lot to help self-employed people and small business owners get decent coverage for themselves and their families. I agree that the bill is nowhere near perfect, but it's a good start.

And charitable donations to fund a high-risk pool? Are you joking?

I understand how it works completely and if those policies are expensive (just like any policy is actually) then you've got to ask yourself why.

It's not the insurance, it's the cost of health care.

Until actual COST is addressed, it's not right what the government is doing to the insurance industry.

If health care was done properly and didn't have so much red-tape in it, costs would be down and most would be able to afford basic care. Unfortunately that red tape is all over the place with federal laws, rulings by the FDA, and then individual state laws on top of that.

[Ali G. 37]

Illegals will, in fact, be covered. They will not pay taxes for it, though this situation in itself is not different than the current policy, so it is a moot point, really. There is NO change for illegal immigrants. If the plan were designed NOT to benefit illegal immigrants, then the law would require proof of legal presence in the country for medical treatment. It doesn't and specifically did not include this protection of US citizens and legal residents.

If they cover illegal aliens, the system will be bankrupt. Hence why no other country with a NHS or universal coverage does it.

Requiring private, for profit, insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions is like requiring an auto insurance company to give you insurance and cover accident costs AFTER you have an accident. This provision has ONE purpose...to run private insurance out of business and leave people with no choice but to "buy" government insurance. While the "single payer" system is specifically not mentioned, it will be phased in by the requirements of the bill over time. Liberals know this, it will take probably, less than 10 years.

Actually, the single payer system is what should have happened from the start. It's the most cost effective system out there. It also capitalizes on economies of scale, further driving down the cost.

[Ali G. 37]

It's not the insurance, it's the cost of health care.

Until actual COST is addressed, it's not right what the government is doing to the insurance industry.

If health care was done properly and didn't have so much red-tape in it, costs would be down and most would be able to afford basic care. Unfortunately that red tape is all over the place with federal laws, rulings by the FDA, and then individual state laws on top of that.

The insurance is one huge aspect of the cost. Adding a middleman never reduces a cost.

Rulings by the FDA? So should we just leave medication or the approval of medical procedures up to a corporate board or their executives. You know, had the board been in Canada, Europe or Australia, might not be a bad idea, but an American board, hell to the no. American boards have proven time and time again that they are willing to sell out or even see their own people die in the pursuit of a profit. Patriotism, the Constitution, country first goes out of the window in the pursuit of the - not so mighty - dollar.

If anything, the FDA needs to be strengthened, as its equivalent are in some many other first world countries. There is a reason why the testing of pharmaceuticals usually takes twice as long in other countries than it does here.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Ali G.