front loading

[BurningFinger 5]

I actually forgot to add one thing. It would not surprise me to know that they did indeed have a quota system. Based on the fraud cases they see on a daily basis, perhaps they get together and say they will deny x-number of visas today. I don't feel this way, but all I am saying is that this would NOT surprise me one bit

[BinhJerome 14]

People, come on, who cares if they have a quota or not, I think that it is a bunch of bull, and a way for someone to feel better about a denial. We already know that a CO can and does lie. If there was a quota system why would they be reaffirm any petition???? This would just back log them like it already is. Maybe there is something going on in HCMC that is not going on elsewhere in the world, but I truly doubt it, other than the fact that there are tons of fraud cases going through HCMC. I think a person posting as a former CO is a joke, it is probably someone that got pissed and made a id to start trouble with HCMC. Think of it like this, if you leave a job and you talk about things they do this can get you into legal trouble, and if he was/is a true former CO then why is he a former??? Was he doing something wrong, or was he rocking the boat??? Regardless of what goes on in HCMC just think and worry about your case, it might make you feel good if you assume that there is a quota and that because you got a blue today you will get a pink tomorrow, fine think that way, but if not, then worry about what we can have an affect on, and that is each case, not about any quota. All this talk about this and that has little to do with getting people approval's, that is what we are here for, at least that is why I still post here, so that maybe my experiances can help someone be better prepared for what is to come. Jerome

[ScottThuy 140]

Sorry, I don't buy it. The consulate knows that a significant portion of the applicants are frauds. I'd be willing to bet my paycheck that they have a figure that they accept as a reasonably accurate percentage of the fraudulent applicants vs. the genuine applicants. I'd also bet that they watch the visa approval rate to see if it strays too far from that accepted percentage, especially if one consular officer is approving a much higher percentage of visas than another. I'd bet that the visa section chief would call that consular officer into his office to ask him why he's not catching as many of bad guys as the other consular officers. It's distinctly possible that the consular officer could just be lucky, and he's getting a disproportionate number of the sincere applicants at his window, but I doubt his boss would see it that way. Every CO's performance has to be judged against a known standard, and the same standard has to be applied to everyone. If the CO is told that, on average, half of the applications he sees are going to be frauds (for example), then he's going to set his red flag radar so that about half will get caught.

Of course, this is just my opinion. I could be completely wrong, but I'd be very surprised if I was. It makes sense, from a management perspective, and it's consistent with what I see happening.

Benchmarking at its finest... The Formerconoff does add a good perspective on timelines frontloading, interviews, etc if anyone has the interest to read the posts between him, Peter, Chuck and others... he's not the only former CO to post here... I really miss reading Chucks insights... its not about the quantity of evidence, its about the quality of the relationship and the comfort discussing the petitioner along with a well organized file. Chuck compared the process to applying for a job... How much would one frontload when sending in an application or resume for a job? It can be done, but must be done correctly..... much like hiring and only having a few positions to fill... the Consulate is said to only have so many visas available to issue each month... If they are reachning the cap for the month, one would expect the rigor to increase... If they have reached the cap, one would expect to see valid cases be told wait a month or two and we will try again... we will keep the resume on file...

If the CO is seen to be approving a high percentage of cases when there is a known level of fraud taking place, the data is all there to see and the CO would likely get called into a meeting to discuss the issue and be persuaded to make drastic adjustments to make the numbers fit with trends.. We have all heard a supervisor say "make it happen" well, that said.. would a CO lie or fudge things to make a supervisor happy or to keep a job? Happens every day in every area of the world so to think it wouldn't happen here is unrealistic...

This all may seem to be OT but we are really looking at what to do to make the CO see the truth... It is said that a timeline frontloaded does not get read.. I agree with this statement as I frontloaded mine and was asked for one at the interview.. we were not the first and not the last to see this happen... I also frontloaded evidence of my former spouse living arrangement... it was disregarded and requested again... If I had it to do over again, I would still frontload my timeline, limited proof of visits, but clear proof.. along with a couple dozen photos ..tops... The timeline could actually be the resonse to question 18 if done correctly...

The case that is presented at the interview is what needs to be comprehensive and at the same time not a bunch of redundant pages of chats... They can see if the SO has memorized things or really knows the USC.. IMO Thuy actually knew more about me than the CO was ready for and it made them think something was wrong and that led to the hour + interview.

If a blue slip is issued at the interview, the USC can go to the window the following Tues or Wed and submit any and all evidence that was disregarded at the interview... Then the evidence is already there at the next appt. and there is a note that the USC has gone to inquire and submit docs...

[cedwards001 18]

Benchmarking at its finest... The Formerconoff does add a good perspective on timelines frontloading, interviews, etc if anyone has the interest to read the posts between him, Peter, Chuck and others... he's not the only former CO to post here... I really miss reading Chucks insights... its not about the quantity of evidence, its about the quality of the relationship and the comfort discussing the petitioner along with a well organized file. Chuck compared the process to applying for a job... How much would one frontload when sending in an application or resume for a job? It can be done, but must be done correctly..... much like hiring and only having a few positions to fill... the Consulate is said to only have so many visas available to issue each month... If they are reachning the cap for the month, one would expect the rigor to increase... If they have reached the cap, one would expect to see valid cases be told wait a month or two and we will try again... we will keep the resume on file...

If the CO is seen to be approving a high percentage of cases when there is a known level of fraud taking place, the data is all there to see and the CO would likely get called into a meeting to discuss the issue and be persuaded to make drastic adjustments to make the numbers fit with trends.. We have all heard a supervisor say "make it happen" well, that said.. would a CO lie or fudge things to make a supervisor happy or to keep a job? Happens every day in every area of the world so to think it wouldn't happen here is unrealistic...

This all may seem to be OT but we are really looking at what to do to make the CO see the truth... It is said that a timeline frontloaded does not get read.. I agree with this statement as I frontloaded mine and was asked for one at the interview.. we were not the first and not the last to see this happen... I also frontloaded evidence of my former spouse living arrangement... it was disregarded and requested again... If I had it to do over again, I would still frontload my timeline, limited proof of visits, but clear proof.. along with a couple dozen photos ..tops... The timeline could actually be the resonse to question 18 if done correctly...

The case that is presented at the interview is what needs to be comprehensive and at the same time not a bunch of redundant pages of chats... They can see if the SO has memorized things or really knows the USC.. IMO Thuy actually knew more about me than the CO was ready for and it made them think something was wrong and that led to the hour + interview.

If a blue slip is issued at the interview, the USC can go to the window the following Tues or Wed and submit any and all evidence that was disregarded at the interview... Then the evidence is already there at the next appt. and there is a note that the USC has gone to inquire and submit docs...

Scott,

I really do agree with you on the time-line. At first I was thinking of putting "Time Line Relationship Summary" on my cover sheet for the petition and then include a notarized time-line in the package. I thought about it some more and scrapped that idea. I will restructure the time-line and use it to answer Question 18 on the I-129F, which asks you to describe the circumstances under which you met. Describe how we met, made trips, how we fell in love, got engaged, etc. Something very simple and easy.

I also thought about putting a section on my coversheet entitled "Proof of Ongoing Relationship" and putting evidence of a few trips I made in that section. Once again, I scrapped that idea and decided to put evidence of every single trip I made up until the petition filing, into the section of proof for "meeting in the last 2 years". Very simply. Nothing fancy. Both of these things are just satisfying the requirements on the I-129F instructions so no harm in this.

Edited March 22, 2010 by cedwards001

[ScottThuy 140]

Scott,

I really do agree with you on the time-line. At first I was thinking of putting "Time Line Relationship Summary" on my cover sheet for the petition and then include a notarized time-line in the package. I thought about it some more and scrapped that idea. I will restructure the time-line and use it to answer Question 18 on the I-129F, which asks you to describe the circumstances under which you met. Describe how we met, made trips, how we fell in love, got engaged, etc. Something very simple and easy.

I also thought about putting a section on my coversheet entitled "Proof of Ongoing Relationship" and putting evidence of a few trips I made in that section. Once again, I scrapped that idea and decided to put evidence of every single trip I made up until the petition filing, into the section of proof for "meeting in the last 2 years". Very simply. Nothing fancy. Both of these things are just satisfying the requirements on the I-129F instructions so no harm in this.

If someone is divorced and filing, It ay be a good idea to include evidence of the former spouses address attached to the divorce decree... this would not only show the proof of being eligible to marry but also show that the ex is in fact an ex... if it is just added into the packet as mine was, it may not get noticed...

[vietazn 1]

If there is a quota system, Vietnam probably gets more than their fair share because of the guilt America has for its role in the war.

As for frontloading, it is based on the theory that more information is better for the case. It doesn't explore that some of the information can be bad, not relevant, or not presented correctly (bad timeline) and can harm the case. This could create warnings out of thin air for the consulate to analyze. Including the timeline initially is a gambit because timelines typically are requested after the interview if the consulate believes that the relationship might not be true.

[Dang Lang Thang 0]

I also believe there is a quota of visa approvals.

I believe I actually read that information eight months ago from the USCIS website. (I can't find the article source now.) I remember that there was a question and answer session from a new USCIS Director or Ombudsman talking about the sheer volume of petitions and approvals. He stated that "the US grants around 1 million visa approvals world-wide". Imagine how many denials or delays must occur. Given the high fraud rate in Vietnam, one would think that most petitions will not be approved. Only the cleanest or most well-defended will pass without hassle.

To think about it, one million visa approvals per year is an astounding number compared against the current U.S. population of ~300 million. Given the depressing economic and financial outlook of the US, I would believe that the visa approval quotas will even decline. It might be even tougher to get visa approvals moving (years) forward. Add to that the high unemployment and universal health care burden, there will likely be a backlash towards legal immigration.

The steel doors are slowly closing.

-DLT

[BurningFinger 5]

If there is a quota system, Vietnam probably gets more than their fair share because of the guilt America has for its role in the war.

As for frontloading, it is based on the theory that more information is better for the case. It doesn't explore that some of the information can be bad, not relevant, or not presented correctly (bad timeline) and can harm the case. This could create warnings out of thin air for the consulate to analyze. Including the timeline initially is a gambit because timelines typically are requested after the interview if the consulate believes that the relationship might not be true.

Front-loading is based on addressing red flags at the petition stage. The redder the red flags, the more you should think about front-loading. If you don't have red flags, maybe forget about it. I don't think it has much to do with more information being better. I think this is where a lot of the confusion about what front-loading really is comes from. In theory, front-loading is done to either overcome the CO's suspicion or to take away ammo from the CO to deny the case. Those who front-load do so because of the belief that visa cases are judged by the documentation provided with the petition before the interview ever takes place. If this is indeed true, front-loading gives the petitioner a "chance" to prove whatever it is he/she is trying to prove, since there is no guarantee that evidence will be accepted at the interview. That's all it is: An opportunity to present your case and defend yourself before ever being judged by those evil CO's

The dark side of front-loading is exactly as you stated: including documents that are presented incorrectly. The time-line would be a good example. Putting a notarized time-line in your petition, in my opinion, would cause suspicion with a CO. How did you know about a time-line? Why did you include it if it is not part of the requirements? Instead, use the requirements as your biggest weapon. For the I-129F, Question 18 is a perfect opportunity to explain the beginning and evolution of the relationship in a time line format if one wishes to do so. Submitting documents that your fiance's uncle introduced you two is fine. But submitting documents that he paid for all the airplane tickets, hotels, and other expenses to arrange your first ever meeting would NOT be a good idea.....

[luckytxn 2,263]

I was introduced by my wifes Aunt. I decided to not bring it up or try to bring attention to it.

[lambchop4life 6]

I am going to front load the following items

1.time line notarize

2.Self affidavit and my little brother affidavit to affirm our relationship is genuine also notarize

3. chat log, recorded in October till now, phone log from July 09 till now cost me so far 149 dollars in phone cards and still counting

4.My wife's PCC.

5.My second visit in May 10th 2010 with airplane receipt paid by me this time, first one parents help out, thank you Vietnamese parents.

6.employment verification sign by the boss, that Ive real job.

She has no relatives in the USA

[ScottThuy 140]

I am going to front load the following items

1.time line notarize

2.Self affidavit and my little brother affidavit to affirm our relationship is genuine also notarize

3. chat log, recorded in October till now, phone log from July 09 till now cost me so far 149 dollars in phone cards and still counting

4.My wife's PCC.

5.My second visit in May 10th 2010 with airplane receipt paid by me this time, first one parents help out, thank you Vietnamese parents.

6.employment verification sign by the boss, that Ive real job.

She has no relatives in the USA

Submit copies and keep originals... create a cover sheet that outlines everything...

[lindal24 1]

I am going to front load the following items

1.time line notarize

2.Self affidavit and my little brother affidavit to affirm our relationship is genuine also notarize

3. chat log, recorded in October till now, phone log from July 09 till now cost me so far 149 dollars in phone cards and still counting

4.My wife's PCC.

5.My second visit in May 10th 2010 with airplane receipt paid by me this time, first one parents help out, thank you Vietnamese parents.

6.employment verification sign by the boss, that Ive real job.

She has no relatives in the USA

Are there red flags in your case that you would provide the items you listed in that manner?

Look back to post #23 of this thread. If you are going to frontload, I would recommend you do it in a manner that it doesn't draw more attention to specifics in your petition.

My case was similar to yours in that I had a quick engagement/marriage (we were married 5 months after meeting). I'm not sure what you mean in #4 "PCC". My parents also paid for my first trip (but the difference is that my trip was a family vacation, not to meet my future husband). What do you need employment verification for? And what are you frontloading for "She has no relatives in the USA"?

Hopefully you'll revisit your petition before sending it out. You want it to be as clean (perfect) as possible, without overburdening yourself with worry. HCMC is a tough consulate so you want to make sure to cover your bins and cues!

[Kevin and 10]

I am going to front load the following items

1.time line notarize

2.Self affidavit and my little brother affidavit to affirm our relationship is genuine also notarize

3. chat log, recorded in October till now, phone log from July 09 till now cost me so far 149 dollars in phone cards and still counting

4.My wife's PCC.

5.My second visit in May 10th 2010 with airplane receipt paid by me this time, first one parents help out, thank you Vietnamese parents.

6.employment verification sign by the boss, that Ive real job.

She has no relatives in the USA

You're a little late for front loading your petition, your case is already at the NVC. All your red flags will have to be addressed with the Consulate and the HCM Consulate is known for not accepting or looking at new evidence at the time of the interview. Not to be a downer, but be prepared to be issued a blue sheet and go through AP.

[lambchop4life 6]

Are there red flags in your case that you would provide the items you listed in that manner?

Look back to post #23 of this thread. If you are going to frontload, I would recommend you do it in a manner that it doesn't draw more attention to specifics in your petition.

My case was similar to yours in that I had a quick engagement/marriage (we were married 5 months after meeting). I'm not sure what you mean in #4 "PCC". My parents also paid for my first trip (but the difference is that my trip was a family vacation, not to meet my future husband). What do you need employment verification for? And what are you frontloading for "She has no relatives in the USA"?

Hopefully you'll revisit your petition before sending it out. You want it to be as clean (perfect) as possible, without overburdening yourself with worry. HCMC is a tough consulate so you want to make sure to cover your bins and cues!

I wanted to say Police Cert

Well Wiki short cut said i needed one. a employment verification, so I type one up and had the boss sign, if you think its overkill i will leave it out.

You're a little late for front loading your petition, your case is already at the NVC. All your red flags will have to be addressed with the Consulate and the HCM Consulate is known for not accepting or looking at new evidence at the time of the interview. Not to be a downer, but be prepared to be issued a blue sheet and go through AP.

really?

I didnt know you had to turn it in during the I-130 petition, When could you have front load this?

[lindal24 1]

The front loading should have been done at the original submission with USCIS stage.

NVC will review the documents forwarded from USCIS, but then forwards it on to the Consulate (unless there was something wrong...)

The Consulate will conduct the interview, and if you're lucky you might be able to get them to accept additional evidence. If not, they'll send you home with a blue slip and give you a month to think about it and submit it.

So, just curious, what did you submit for your original petition for evidence of relationship?