Plushenko: Lysacek not a champion without quad

[Fandango 1,440]

When I say that figure skating isn't a sport, I am not trying to demean it in any way. I am well aware that it is very challenging. I just think that sports should have some way of objectively determining the winner beyond the opinion of a judge. While admittedly all sports have referees, the referee in most sports is called upon to determine what happened, not who was better. That is, the referee determines whether the ball crossed the line, but the rules themselves determine the winner. In these sports, if what actually happened could be determined objectively, a referee would be unnecessary. In ice skating, you would still need a judge.

If the only requirement for a sport is that it is physically challenging, ballet, break dancing, playing the bagpipes while marching, marching bands, and wilderness survival would all be sports. While these are all fine endeavors, the inability to determine a "winner" without a judge makes them not sports in my book.

To the point about Plushenko and ice-skating, I don't feel the judges are beyond reproach or that questioning them is out of line. Anybody who doesn't remember should read about the judging scandal in 2002. I'm not suggesting necessarily that I think the judges in this case (in 2010) are corrupt, since it seems fair to say the decision could have gone either way. However, the figure skating committee has done a pretty good job of simply pushing the whole 2002 scandal under the table without really addressing the issues.

Anyone who has watched ice skating for more than eight years remembers when they displayed individual scores from each of the judges. As a result of the scandal, now they just show a total. There were some excuses made for this about how it takes pressure off individual judges, but in reality it reeks of simply reducing transparency and declaring rule of the judging committee by fiat, instead of actually addressing the corruption.

My point is that the figure skating judges aren't necessarily worthy of being defended absolutely. Eight years ago when the Canadians complained and moaned about the unfairness of the judging, nobody accused them of unsportsmanlike conduct or told them to accept the judges or not compete. The fact that the judge appears to have been in reality corrupt does little to derail the parallel with Plushenko since the Canadian pair didn't know of the reality of judging irregularities beyond the fact that they thought they skated better and were marked lower. Plushenko could reasonably feel the same.

I gotta say, this is a well thought out argument...I was ready to be all 'you skate and jump for 4+ mins and tell me it's not a sport, but the way you put if forth here...well, I can't argue with it.

I didn't see the competition, so I cannot personally comment, but you make a compelling argument all around.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Happy Bunny

[Peikko 1,575]

When I say that figure skating isn't a sport, I am not trying to demean it in any way. I am well aware that it is very challenging. I just think that sports should have some way of objectively determining the winner beyond the opinion of a judge. While admittedly all sports have referees, the referee in most sports is called upon to determine what happened, not who was better. That is, the referee determines whether the ball crossed the line, but the rules themselves determine the winner. In these sports, if what actually happened could be determined objectively, a referee would be unnecessary. In ice skating, you would still need a judge.

If the only requirement for a sport is that it is physically challenging, ballet, break dancing, playing the bagpipes while marching, marching bands, and wilderness survival would all be sports. While these are all fine endeavors, the inability to determine a "winner" without a judge makes them not sports in my book.

To the point about Plushenko and ice-skating, I don't feel the judges are beyond reproach or that questioning them is out of line. Anybody who doesn't remember should read about the judging scandal in 2002. I'm not suggesting necessarily that I think the judges in this case (in 2010) are corrupt, since it seems fair to say the decision could have gone either way. However, the figure skating committee has done a pretty good job of simply pushing the whole 2002 scandal under the table without really addressing the issues.

Anyone who has watched ice skating for more than eight years remembers when they displayed individual scores from each of the judges. As a result of the scandal, now they just show a total. There were some excuses made for this about how it takes pressure off individual judges, but in reality it reeks of simply reducing transparency and declaring rule of the judging committee by fiat, instead of actually addressing the corruption.

My point is that the figure skating judges aren't necessarily worthy of being defended absolutely. Eight years ago when the Canadians complained and moaned about the unfairness of the judging, nobody accused them of unsportsmanlike conduct or told them to accept the judges or not compete. The fact that the judge appears to have been in reality corrupt does little to derail the parallel with Plushenko since the Canadian pair didn't know of the reality of judging irregularities beyond the fact that they thought they skated better and were marked lower. Plushenko could reasonably feel the same.

That's your opinion of what a sport should be but that's not the Olympic committees opinion of what a sport is. There are many sports where the result is determined by a panel of judges, not by the absolute of crossing a line first. Within the Winter Olympics, it's not just ice skating that is determined in this way, snow boarding half pipe is another example - even ski jumping has a style componant, you can't win just by jumping the furthest, you have to jump the furthest with style. You can of course campaign to have these sports excluded from being labelled sports, and even excluded from sporting events such as the Olympics, is you wish - I don't know what your point would be for doing that, but that is your right.

As to the judging, of course it's perfectly accceptable to challenge the competence of judging and after the controvesy of the 2002 Olympics, that's exactly what happened, and that is why there is a new judging system in place - one that most within the ice skating world agree produces a much fairer result because excellence on the day is rewarded, not reputation. In that vein, where there to have been a general dissastisfaction with the judging at the Vancouver Olympics one could say that perhaps Plushenko had a point. However, the ONLY person who is suggesting that the result is wrong is Plushenko. That smacks of poor sportsmanship, not poor judging.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

when I watched the men's skating I thought, wow, I hadn't realized Joe Elliot quit music to become an ice skater

[SMR 368]

That's your opinion of what a sport should be but that's not the Olympic committees opinion of what a sport is. There are many sports where the result is determined by a panel of judges, not by the absolute of crossing a line first. Within the Winter Olympics, it's not just ice skating that is determined in this way, snow boarding half pipe is another example - even ski jumping has a style componant, you can't win just by jumping the furthest, you have to jump the furthest with style. You can of course campaign to have these sports excluded from being labelled sports, and even excluded from sporting events such as the Olympics, is you wish - I don't know what your point would be for doing that, but that is your right.

As to the judging, of course it's perfectly accceptable to challenge the competence of judging and after the controvesy of the 2002 Olympics, that's exactly what happened, and that is why there is a new judging system in place - one that most within the ice skating world agree produces a much fairer result because excellence on the day is rewarded, not reputation. In that vein, where there to have been a general dissastisfaction with the judging at the Vancouver Olympics one could say that perhaps Plushenko had a point. However, the ONLY person who is suggesting that the result is wrong is Plushenko. That smacks of poor sportsmanship, not poor judging.

Of course that's my opinion of what a sport is. I am well aware that there are other Olympic competitions that have a winner determined by a judge.

Plushenko isn't the only person suggesting the result is wrong, and far from it. The American media just wanted to see an American win and thus is quite biased. This bias has served to make it appear that Plushenko is outspoken and off base, when in reality it is the media that is bending the truth. For instance, the announcers gave Plushenko a royal ribbing for "front-loading" his program and having no jumps for the last minute. But, as has been pointed out in this thread, Lysacek similarly did all of his complicated jumps and combos at the beginning and also didn't jump in the last minute (I just watched the replay and timed it). But there wasn't a word about how Lysacek's program was front-loaded.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Is this guy related to Spook and Scandal?

Actually he behaved like a sore loser; very immature and not able to accept the fact that he had his a$$ handed to him. Just like you behave here when you get your sorry a$$ owned day in and day out.

[Empress of Groovy 373]

Of course that's my opinion of what a sport is. I am well aware that there are other Olympic competitions that have a winner determined by a judge.

Plushenko isn't the only person suggesting the result is wrong, and far from it. The American media just wanted to see an American win and thus is quite biased. This bias has served to make it appear that Plushenko is outspoken and off base, when in reality it is the media that is bending the truth. For instance, the announcers gave Plushenko a royal ribbing for "front-loading" his program and having no jumps for the last minute. But, as has been pointed out in this thread, Lysacek similarly did all of his complicated jumps and combos at the beginning and also didn't jump in the last minute (I just watched the replay and timed it). But there wasn't a word about how Lysacek's program was front-loaded.

It's not the last minute that's important, but the second half of the program.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

the guy may have landed a quadruple but he stepped out of several other jumps. what so great about landing a quadruple if you can't land the easier triples and doubles and make a mistake on your spin?

I though Lysacek's response to Plushenko's remarks was very classy - I'd have a crush on him if I wasn't highly suspicious he was gay.

[Empress of Groovy 373]

the guy may have landed a quadruple but he stepped out of several other jumps. what so great about landing a quadruple if you can't land the easier triples and doubles and make a mistake on your spin?

I though Lysacek's response to Plushenko's remarks was very classy - I'd have a crush on him if I wasn't highly suspicious he was gay.

I thought so too.

I'm a pretty casual viewer of skating, so I claim no expertise, but the general consensus seems to be that Lysacek's skate was better overall and superior technically. Plushenko's position seems to be based solely on his quad jump. He may have a point about the sport progressing and all that, but it doesn't mean he should get an automatic gold because of a relatively clean program + quad jump. In any case, Plushenko stepping on the gold medalist's platform spot and essentially accusing the judges of slanting their scores in favor of Lysacek to raise skating's profile in the US were more than a little ungracious.

[Peikko 1,575]

Of course that's my opinion of what a sport is. I am well aware that there are other Olympic competitions that have a winner determined by a judge.

Plushenko isn't the only person suggesting the result is wrong, and far from it. The American media just wanted to see an American win and thus is quite biased. This bias has served to make it appear that Plushenko is outspoken and off base, when in reality it is the media that is bending the truth. For instance, the announcers gave Plushenko a royal ribbing for "front-loading" his program and having no jumps for the last minute. But, as has been pointed out in this thread, Lysacek similarly did all of his complicated jumps and combos at the beginning and also didn't jump in the last minute (I just watched the replay and timed it). But there wasn't a word about how Lysacek's program was front-loaded.

Which of the other competing skaters have suggested that the judging was biased and incompetent? I don't give a fig what the media say, I'm talking about competitors - after all, they are in a better position than the media to make that judgement.

[Peikko 1,575]

Are the other Olympic events that are determined by judges not sports either? What was the point of the comment in the first place? Skating is physicallly demanding, requires the skaters to be in excellent physical condition requies that the competitors attain a progression of skills and they compete against each other to determine who, on the day, is skating the best. That seems to me to be a pretty solid definition of being a sport.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[SMR 368]

It's not the last minute that's important, but the second half of the program.

Draw the line in the sand where you want to. In terms of where the jumps fell, the performances were very similar.

the guy may have landed a quadruple but he stepped out of several other jumps. what so great about landing a quadruple if you can't land the easier triples and doubles and make a mistake on your spin?

I though Lysacek's response to Plushenko's remarks was very classy - I'd have a crush on him if I wasn't highly suspicious he was gay.

I think you are confusing Plushenko and Johnny Weir. Weir was the one who caught an edge on a spin. And Plushenko didn't step out of any jumps. He landed all of his jumps on one foot. The criticism of his jumps stems mainly from the fact that he was tilted in the air on two of them. Although it shocked some that he was able to land them given the tilt, considering that he did land on one foot without any sort of break in the program, the tilt is a very minor error.

In terms of a classy response, I agree that Lysacek responded well considering the reporter desperately wanted him to say something mean or scandalous. However, when you have won it's really pretty easy to just point to the judges and keep your mouth shut. The response shows that he is savvy. I don't think it really speaks much more than that.

Which of the other competing skaters have suggested that the judging was biased and incompetent? I don't give a fig what the media say, I'm talking about competitors - after all, they are in a better position than the media to make that judgement.

Which other skaters have commented on the situation? Everybody realizes that the judging won't be revisited, and I doubt anyone is aching to go out on a limb when they will need the judges one way or another later on.

Are the other Olympic events that are determined by judges not sports either? What was the point of the comment in the first place? Skating is physicallly demanding, requires the skaters to be in excellent physical condition requies that the competitors attain a progression of skills and they compete against each other to determine who, on the day, is skating the best. That seems to me to be a pretty solid definition of being a sport.

Yes, they aren't sports. That's my opinion. The point of the comment is that the problem is inherent in a system. We have tried to take something that isn't inherently competitive and make it so. The only way we have been able to do that is based on someone's biased opinion, whom we call a "judge."

When I say inherently competitive, I think it should be pointed out that many sports are meaningless without competition. Yeah, you can have a friendly game of soccer. But if you aren't trying to score goals, it's really just running around.

[Peikko 1,575]

Draw the line in the sand where you want to. In terms of where the jumps fell, the performances were very similar.

I think you are confusing Plushenko and Johnny Weir. Weir was the one who caught an edge on a spin. And Plushenko didn't step out of any jumps. He landed all of his jumps on one foot. The criticism of his jumps stems mainly from the fact that he was tilted in the air on two of them. Although it shocked some that he was able to land them given the tilt, considering that he did land on one foot without any sort of break in the program, the tilt is a very minor error.

In terms of a classy response, I agree that Lysacek responded well considering the reporter desperately wanted him to say something mean or scandalous. However, when you have won it's really pretty easy to just point to the judges and keep your mouth shut. The response shows that he is savvy. I don't think it really speaks much more than that.

Which other skaters have commented on the situation? Everybody realizes that the judging won't be revisited, and I doubt anyone is aching to go out on a limb when they will need the judges one way or another later on.

Yes, they aren't sports. That's my opinion. The point of the comment is that the problem is inherent in a system. We have tried to take something that isn't inherently competitive and make it so. The only way we have been able to do that is based on someone's biased opinion, whom we call a "judge."

When I say inherently competitive, I think it should be pointed out that many sports are meaningless without competition. Yeah, you can have a friendly game of soccer. But if you aren't trying to score goals, it's really just running around.

Oh, I see, no other skaters complained because they are afraid to speak up. None of the rest want to see the sport progress either I presume? After all, that is Plushenko's rational, allegedly - even while everyone else can clearly see that putting in a harder element in and of itself is not enough to get a better score, one has to execute all the elements at least as well as all the other competitors, as well as exectuting the harder element correctly if not with flair.

No sport has any inherent meaning beyond what humans have given it - sport was designed originally to show off the excellence of ones fighting skills but humans have decided to expand its scope. Now you want to contract it back to something specific to your opinion and yet, for the life of me I can't see why you care. Why does it bother you so much whether ice skating, or half pipe, or ski jumping or gymnastics or synchronized swimming or whatever are classified as sports? It's no skin of your nose one way or another but yet these are all Olympic events while snooker isn't. I see a campaign in your future

[Empress of Groovy 373]

Draw the line in the sand where you want to. In terms of where the jumps fell, the performances were very similar.

I'm not drawing a line in the sand, I'm just clarifying the rule. Skaters receive a 10% bonus on clean jumps in the second half (not the final minute) of the program. Lysacek had five jumps, Plushenko had three. The strange thing is, Plushenko did a lot of complaining about the new scoring system, which includes this bonus scheme, but apparently didn't adjust his routine to accommodate it.