Our Founders Were Not Fundamentalists

[Calypso 465]

The Native Americans take issue with that word also, when applied to Columbus.

Yes. It's not even fair to say Vespucci "discovered" the U.S. like what a very confident seminarian accentuated to the crowd in school when I was in 4th year high school. He was so stiff in saying, "That's why America, from Amerigo." Oh come on, I'm sure prehistoric people already roamed around everywhere in the world even before those great explorers were born.

[trillium13 84]

Go live in any other first world country then come tell me that the US does not systematically only endorse and encourage atheism. When a government only encourages one belief, then it has failed in being fair and honest.

I live in Texas. Trust me, there is no endorsement of atheism here. In fact in Texas:

Texas' Bill of Rights Section 4:

"RELIGIOUS TESTS: No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."

Comments: As noted above in the case of Pennsylvania, non-theists had no protection from being excluded from holding office civil servant in Texas.

If you live here you know what this means. It's not just any supreme being they're talking about.

[scandal 951]

From a book review of David Holmes' "The Faiths of the Founding Fathers"

http://www.amazon.com/Faiths-Founding-Fath...s/dp/0195300920

It is not uncommon to hear Christians argue that America was founded as a Christian nation. But how true is this claim?

In this compact book, David L. Holmes offers a clear, concise and illuminating look at the spiritual beliefs of our founding fathers. He begins with an informative account of the religious culture of the late colonial era, surveying the religious groups in each colony. In particular, he sheds light on the various forms of Deism that flourished in America, highlighting the profound influence this intellectual movement had on the founding generation. Holmes then examines the individual beliefs of a variety of men and women who loom large in our national history. He finds that some, like Martha Washington, Samuel Adams, John Jay, Patrick Henry, and Thomas Jefferson's daughters, held orthodox Christian views. But many of the most influential figures, including Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John and Abigail Adams, Jefferson, James and Dolley Madison, and James Monroe, were believers of a different stripe. Respectful of Christianity, they admired the ethics of Jesus, and believed that religion could play a beneficial role in society. But they tended to deny the divinity of Christ, and a few seem to have been agnostic about the very existence of God. Although the founding fathers were religious men, Holmes shows that it was a faith quite unlike the Christianity of today's evangelicals. Holmes concludes by examining the role of religion in the lives of the presidents since World War II and by reflecting on the evangelical resurgence that helped fuel the reelection of George W. Bush.

An intriguing look at a neglected aspect of our history, the book will appeal to American history buffs as well as to anyone concerned about the role of religion in American culture.

[trillium13 84]

From a book review of David Holmes' "The Faiths of the Founding Fathers"

http://www.amazon.com/Faiths-Founding-Fath...s/dp/0195300920

Sounds like an interesting book. What I'm curious about is, what does "A Christian Nation" or "founded on Christian beliefs" actually mean? Does that mean that we are all supposed to be Christians? Exactly what "beliefs" are we talking about? And if they are exclusively "Christian" what makes them so?

[Ali G. 37]

I live in Texas. Trust me, there is no endorsement of atheism here. In fact in Texas:

Texas' Bill of Rights Section 4:

"RELIGIOUS TESTS: No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."

Comments: As noted above in the case of Pennsylvania, non-theists had no protection from being excluded from holding office civil servant in Texas.

If you live here you know what this means. It's not just any supreme being they're talking about.

Not to sure about Texas but certainly not the case in most other states. The reason so much conflict regarding such topics occurs in the US is because the constitution is ambiguous. I am still struggling to locate where the phrase 'Separation of Church and State' is located in the constitution. What I do find is something akin to what Australia has. That the government is simply not able to push or prefer one belief over the other, which includes atheism. Doesn't mean the government stays mum on anything relating to the beliefs of their constituents. Allowing the government to recognize and acknowledge the handful of important religious days during a year is not going to be the end of the world. It actually encourages unity, diversity and acceptance of others.

[trillium13 84]

There is religious discrimination in other state constitutions as well.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/texas.htm

It actually encourages unity, diversity and acceptance of others.

Fundamental Christianity does not seem to promote these things.

Edited February 18, 2010 by trillium13

[scandal 951]

Sounds like an interesting book. What I'm curious about is, what does "A Christian Nation" or "founded on Christian beliefs" actually mean? Does that mean that we are all supposed to be Christians? Exactly what "beliefs" are we talking about? And if they are exclusively "Christian" what makes them so?

No, it does not mean that.

I don't agree that the US should be referred to as a "Christian Nation" - it is not, and never was, and that was never the Founders' intent.

As to "founded on Christian beliefs" - there is considerable truth in that. The Founders were all born and raised and identified as Christians, and that Christian belief system played into their world views and shaped the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution,and the structure of our government. However, as seen in texts like Holmes' book, amongst others, their notion of what "Christianity" meant is vastly different than that of many (most) evangelicals today. Jefferson, for one, did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, and did not take literally the Resurrection and other miracles. There is good evidence that he was agnostic about the existence of God entirely. All in all, they were a much more tolerant group than many of the more vocal Christian groups today who claim that the USA is a "Christian nation".

[trillium13 84]

No, it does not mean that.

I don't agree that the US should be referred to as a "Christian Nation" - it is not, and never was, and that was never the Founders' intent.

As to "founded on Christian beliefs" - there is considerable truth in that. The Founders were all born and raised and identified as Christians, and that Christian belief system played into their world views and shaped the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution,and the structure of our government. However, as seen in texts like Holmes' book, amongst others, their notion of what "Christianity" meant is vastly different than that of many (most) evangelicals today. Jefferson, for one, did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, and did not take literally the Resurrection and other miracles. There is good evidence that he was agnostic about the existence of God entirely. All in all, they were a much more tolerant group than many of the more vocal Christian groups today who claim that the USA is a "Christian nation".

I understand what you're saying, kind of. Christianity now and then are quite different, I think. But you don't have to be a Christian to subsrcibe to the beliefs that founded this country, right? That seems to be the message of some.

I don't know if my question made any sense. This truly is a topic that makes my head spin. IMO you can be a good person, and patriotic, and appreciate the founders of your country, without being "Christian".

[scandal 951]

I understand what you're saying, kind of. Christianity now and then are quite different, I think. But you don't have to be a Christian to subsrcibe to the beliefs that founded this country, right? That seems to be the message of some.

I don't know if my question made any sense. This truly is a topic that makes my head spin. IMO you can be a good person, and patriotic, and appreciate the founders of your country, without being "Christian".

ABSOLUTELY!!! That's exactly how I see it.

I am not a Christian. Many, many Americans do not consider themselves Christians. But we can all find the words of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Gettysburg Address, the 14th Amendment, to be uplifting and unifying and directly applicable to our own lives. Words that may have been written by privileged Christian white males apply universally to Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, wiccans, Druids, men, women, children, black, white, brown, Asian, Hispanic, Latino, old, young, left, right, rich, poor, able bodied, disabled, ....... America is founded on universal principles of the dignity of the human spirit. It is not the only country that embodies these ideas, but it was the first to so boldly put them down on paper, fight for them, defend them, and continue to this very day to apply them in practice. It is this above all else, everything else, that makes me identify as an AMERICAN and be proud of that word and this country.

[trillium13 84]

ABSOLUTELY!!! That's exactly how I see it.

I am not a Christian. Many, many Americans do not consider themselves Christians. But we can all find the words of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Gettysburg Address, the 14th Amendment, to be uplifting and unifying and directly applicable to our own lives. Words that may have been written by privileged Christian white males apply universally to Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, wiccans, Druids, men, women, children, black, white, brown, Asian, Hispanic, Latino, old, young, left, right, rich, poor, able bodied, disabled, ....... America is founded on universal principles of the dignity of the human spirit. It is not the only country that embodies these ideas, but it was the first to so boldly put them down on paper, fight for them, defend them, and continue to this very day to apply them in practice. It is this above all else, everything else, that makes me identify as an AMERICAN and be proud of that word and this country.

You said that much better than I could, but yes, exactly!

I resent being told that anyone needs to belong to any particular group to enjoy or appreciate the freedoms that we have here in the US.

[Ali G. 37]

but it was the first to so boldly put them down on paper, fight for them, defend them, and continue to this very day to apply them in practice. It is this above all else, everything else, that makes me identify as an AMERICAN and be proud of that word and this country.

Too bad anchor-babies get to exploit loopholes and disingenuously use it to be granted access. Definitely not something to be proud of.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Booyah

[Ali G. 37]

I understand what you're saying, kind of. Christianity now and then are quite different, I think. But you don't have to be a Christian to subsrcibe to the beliefs that founded this country, right? That seems to be the message of some.

I don't know if my question made any sense. This truly is a topic that makes my head spin. IMO you can be a good person, and patriotic, and appreciate the founders of your country, without being "Christian".

I think we are talking about two separate issues here. My issue is regarding the government not being able to celebrate or openly acknowledge the beliefs of its constituents. For example, not being able to display a Christmas tree during Christmas on government property.

Whether someone believes X or does not should not be an issue in the US. People are and should be free to practice or believe as they choose; or choose not to.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Booyah

[alienlovechild 75]

3) Washington was also the nation's leading brewer, and since most Americans drank much beer (water could be lethal in the cities) they regularly trembled before the keg, not the altar. Like Washington, Jefferson and Madison, virtually all American farmers raised hemp and its variations.

6) The Constitution never mentions the words "Christian" or "Jesus" or "Christ."

8) The US was founded less on Judeo-Christian beliefs than on the Greco-Roman love for dialog and reason. There are no contemporary portraits of any Founder wearing a crucifix or church garb. But Washington was famously painted half-naked in the buff toga of the Roman Republic, which continues to inspire much of our official architecture.

11) Franklin deeply admired the Ho-de-no-sau-nee (Iroquois) Confederacy of what's now upstate New York. Inspired by the legendary peacemaker Deganawidah, this democratic congress of five tribes had worked "better than the British Parliament" for more than two centuries. It gave us the model for our federal structure and the images of freedom and equality that inspired both the French and American Revolutions.

Which may be why theocratic fundamentalists are so desperate to sanitize and fictionalize what's real about our history.

Faith-based tyranny is anti-American. So are dishonest textbooks. It's time to fight them both.

Another POS far leftwing article. Surprise, surprise.

"Founders Were Not Fundamentalists" Who said they were? Google the phrase with "not" and you won't find much because very few assert the Founders were fundamentalist. Love the last bit about anti-American which is a big catch for liberals moreso than conservatives.

Most know people then drank ale and but didn't smoke hemp.

The Constitution doesn't mention privacy or democracy so the Founders were against those concepts.

The Iroquois Confederacy was not the model for the Federal state and certainly didn't serve as a model for the French Revolution.

The Founder's admired Greece and Rome but were also careful to avoid copying them too closely.

[alienlovechild 75]

I resent being told that anyone needs to belong to any particular group to enjoy or appreciate the freedoms that we have here in the US.

How many people told you that? Which groups did they want you to join? I don't I've experienced that.

[trillium13 84]

I think we are talking about two separate issues here. My issue is regarding the government not being able to celebrate or openly acknowledge the beliefs of its constituents. For example, not being able to display a Christmas tree during Christmas on government property.

Whether someone believes X or does not should not be an issue in the US. People are and should be free to practice or believe as they choose; or choose not to.

I can't disagree with you when it comes to private property. I guess it comes down to the fact that there will always be people who feel they have to force their ideas onto others. A large number of people are just looking for reasons to be offended. Just because you believe differently than I do doesn't make you wrong. I guess there is a fine line there-but I really don't care what you put on your lawn. Just leave mine alone.

Government property is another story. It's not up to any government to decide what religion it supports and what ones it doesn't. Our government represents everyone (in theory) and therefore should remain neutral on the subject of religion.