Murdoch: ‘If we weren’t fair and balanced, we wouldn’t have the number one network in news.’

[Peikko 1,575]

My 30 second attention span can't cope with that post.

I believe that would make you the prime demographics for cable news.

True

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Do either of these parties really represent anyone? Speaking of ####### - I just realized I spent a ton of time and nobody is going to read this.

They may demand substance, but they don't really want it, nor would they recognize it.

[Gussy 0]

I've seen some real bad posts come out of here (or from people who have been replying to other topics with political comments that had nothing to do with the topic at hand).

So here are some facts:

Obama Facts:

1) Most American's approve of Obama today - 56% approval (source: latest Marist poll)

2) A much smaller percentage disapprove - 32% (source: latest Marist poll).

Much like this hey:

Bush wins by 51% (country divided)

Obama wins by 52% (country united).

Translation: When presented with actual numbers throw in some rhetoric

I believe that would be strawman. The best argument is the fallacious one!

[Heracles 417]

I believe that would be strawman. The best argument is the fallacious one!

Obama could burn down the country and your likes of Keith Olbermann would still be tossing over him.

[Gussy 0]

I believe that would be strawman. The best argument is the fallacious one!

Obama could burn down the country and your likes of Keith Olbermann would still be tossing over him.

Wow... Ad hominem... Perhaps you could read what I said, and decide whether you agree or disagree? If you disagree then please tell me why. Start with a clause or two (perhaps more) and then build a premise of the argument. Perhaps I'm wrong. But I will never know if I am wrong because you have yet to build an argument against me.

What I think is really interesting, however, is just spent a ton of time arguing against both parties. Telling you why I think they're both bad, and why the media is bad. I cited sources and examples when possible.

Yet, your conclusion is that I'm the ardent Obama supporter. It seems to me, that the whole shades of grey thing I described in my post were either ignored or misunderstood.

Please, I ask you, convince me that you're right with real arguments, and refrain from trying to making your point with fallacious ones. This process will make you think, and thinking is something that makes us stronger as Americans, not weaker. After all, we are a nation built on great thinkers. Lets continue that tradition. It's better than recycling talking points, no?

[Heracles 417]

I apologize I didn't actually read it all at first. I assumed it was another Obama is the best (fan club) oriented but fox news sucks post.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Constellation

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I apologize I didn't actually read it all at first. I assumed it was another Obama is the best fan club post; while fox news sucks.

Forgive him. "Fox News sux" is the norm.

[Gussy 0]

I apologize I didn't actually read it all at first. I assumed it was another Obama is the best fan club post; while fox news sucks.

Fox News does suck. All cable news sucks. The commentary is either driven by an ideological agenda or designed to create conflict and scandal. It spoon feeds opinion as fact, or news, instead or presenting facts and letting you make your own decisions.

No, I'm not in the Obama fan club. I'm pissed that he's reversed himself on things like FISA and secret tribunals. I believe in my country, and the rule of law. I think Obama is continuing a legacy setup by the second Bush administration and pushed by the media (for which Fox News was a major contributor).

For those who wanted four more years: congrats - you got it. The democrats elected it for you. Politics in america is always more of the same, but some have been fooled into thinking there's a huge riff between two parties which are both built on such large internally competing agendas that they have no way of being effective at any one thing. We are stuck with mediocrity.

I want an America where all people are awarded due process. What happened to habeas corpus?

I want an America where the government has to prove a case before it can invade someones home.

I want an America where the government is open and transparent.

I want an America where the elected official work for the people who elected them, and not special interest groups.

I want an America..... that could go on forever.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I apologize I didn't actually read it all at first. I assumed it was another Obama is the best fan club post; while fox news sucks.

Fox News does suck. All cable news sucks. The commentary is either driven by an ideological agenda or designed to create conflict and scandal. It spoon feeds opinion as fact, or news, instead or presenting facts and letting you make your own decisions.

No, I'm not in the Obama fan club. I'm pissed that he's reversed himself on things like FISA and secret tribunals. I believe in my country, and the rule of law. I think Obama is continuing a legacy setup by the second Bush administration and pushed by the media (for which Fox News was a major contributor).

For those who wanted four more years: congrats - you got it. The democrats elected it for you. Politics in america is always more of the same, but some have been fooled into thinking there's a huge riff between two parties which are both built on such large internally competing agendas that they have no way of being effective at any one thing. We are stuck with mediocrity.

I want an America where all people are awarded due process. What happened to habeas corpus?

I want an America where the government has to prove a case before it can invade someones home.

I want an America where the government is open and transparent.

I want an America where the elected official work for the people who elected them, and not special interest groups.

I want an America..... that could go on forever.

Indeedy.

[scandal 951]

I apologize I didn't actually read it all at first. I assumed it was another Obama is the best fan club post; while fox news sucks.

Fox News does suck. All cable news sucks. The commentary is either driven by an ideological agenda or designed to create conflict and scandal. It spoon feeds opinion as fact, or news, instead or presenting facts and letting you make your own decisions.

No, I'm not in the Obama fan club. I'm pissed that he's reversed himself on things like FISA and secret tribunals. I believe in my country, and the rule of law. I think Obama is continuing a legacy setup by the second Bush administration and pushed by the media (for which Fox News was a major contributor).

For those who wanted four more years: congrats - you got it. The democrats elected it for you. Politics in america is always more of the same, but some have been fooled into thinking there's a huge riff between two parties which are both built on such large internally competing agendas that they have no way of being effective at any one thing. We are stuck with mediocrity.

I want an America where all people are awarded due process. What happened to habeas corpus?

I want an America where the government has to prove a case before it can invade someones home.

I want an America where the government is open and transparent.

I want an America where the elected official work for the people who elected them, and not special interest groups.

I want an America..... that could go on forever.

Mmmm.. he said FISA.

I puffy heart this n00b

out of curiosity.. where has Obama reversed on FISA? I must have missed that one. In fact, I thought I recalled that in the waning years of Bush administration there was a deal reached with Congress to get FISA court oversight of the Patriot Act sponsored wiretaps? I don't recall Obama reversing any of that.....

This is from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intel...ica_Act_of_2007

Protect America Act of 2007

On July 28, 2007, President Bush called on Congress to pass legislation to reform the FISA in order to ease restrictions on surveillance of terrorist suspects where one party (or both parties) to the communication are located overseas. He asked that Congress pass the legislation before its August 2007 recess. On August 3, 2007, the Senate passed a Republican-sponsored version of FISA (S. 1927) in a vote of 60 to 28. The House followed by passing the bill, 227–183. The Protect America Act of 2007 (Pub.L. 110-55, S. 1927) was then signed into law by George W. Bush on 2007-08-05.[36]

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

For one Eric Holder has already cited executive privilege in regard to the disposition of Guantanamo Bay prisoners. That's pissed off quite a few human rights groups who were hoping the Obama administration would draw a firm line under the Bush administration's approach.

As to FISA - here you go.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Private Pike

[Heracles 417]

I apologize I didn't actually read it all at first. I assumed it was another Obama is the best fan club post; while fox news sucks.

Fox News does suck. All cable news sucks. The commentary is either driven by an ideological agenda or designed to create conflict and scandal. It spoon feeds opinion as fact, or news, instead or presenting facts and letting you make your own decisions.

No, I'm not in the Obama fan club. I'm pissed that he's reversed himself on things like FISA and secret tribunals. I believe in my country, and the rule of law. I think Obama is continuing a legacy setup by the second Bush administration and pushed by the media (for which Fox News was a major contributor).

For those who wanted four more years: congrats - you got it. The democrats elected it for you. Politics in america is always more of the same, but some have been fooled into thinking there's a huge riff between two parties which are both built on such large internally competing agendas that they have no way of being effective at any one thing. We are stuck with mediocrity.

I want an America where all people are awarded due process. What happened to habeas corpus?

I want an America where the government has to prove a case before it can invade someones home.

I want an America where the government is open and transparent.

I want an America where the elected official work for the people who elected them, and not special interest groups.

I want an America..... that could go on forever.

This is where we are going to part views. The media is not to blame for this countries endless woes. The few things that I have observed and noticed while living here are:

1. System of government. Sorry guys but the presidential system and county oriented approach is flawed.

2. Legal system. One that allow me to sue for something trivial like spilling hot coffee on myself or one that permits a group like the ALCU to push their own agenda, by means of the inefficient US legal system and ultimately affect our lives. Change should come via democratic means, such as voting or a referendum, not by the ridiculous power of US courts or the people who exploit it. That is, the power of a judge whom we do not even appoint.

3. Obsession with irrelevant issues. such as Gay rights, marriage rights, abortion rights. Give it a rest. Focus on the real issues for a change, like crime and poverty.

4. Influence of lobbyist, private conglomerates and special interest groups.

5. Mega rich raping the country for their own benefit. Like the waltons. Pay people who work 40 hour weeks minimum wage while you pay negligible tax on the billions you earn for doing absolutely nothing.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Constellation

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The media has a role to play in any democratic society - as an independent mechanism of oversight of government. The US mass media was bought out years ago - its a homogenised, sanitised, sensationalised morass of garbage.

[mawilson 2,133]

No, I'm not in the Obama fan club. I'm pissed that he's reversed himself on things like FISA and secret tribunals. I believe in my country, and the rule of law.

Selective rule of law, I presume?

Because... according to the rule of law, senior bondholders are to be first in line during any bankruptcy

process.

According to Obama's rule of law, senior bondholders (who have a contractual right to seize the assets

of the failed GM) will see their $27 billion reduced to just a 10% equity stake.

[Gussy 0]

]

This is where we are going to part views. The media is not to blame for this countries endless woes. The few things that I have observed and noticed while living here are:

1. System of government. Sorry guys but the presidential system and county oriented approach is flawed.

2. Legal system. One that allow me to sue for something trivial like spilling hot coffee on myself or one that permits a group like the ALCU to push their own agenda, by means of the inefficient US legal system and ultimately affect our lives. Change should come via democratic means, such as voting or a referendum, not by the ridiculous power of US courts or the people who exploit it. That is, the power of a judge whom we do not even appoint.

3. Obsession with irrelevant issues. such as Gay rights, marriage rights, abortion rights. Give it a rest. Focus on the real issues for a change, like crime and poverty.

4. Influence of lobbyist, private conglomerates and special interest groups.

5. Mega rich raping the country for their own benefit. Like the waltons. Pay people who work 40 hour weeks minimum wage while you pay negligible tax on the billions you earn for doing absolutely nothing.

I'm glad you have expressed your opinion in this way. What it tells me is that we're more aligned in ideology than we are apart. It also tells me that you fit neither the mold of a democrat or republican. I'll address all five points.

1. I agree. First, the electoral college is stupid. It creates a situation where some states have more power than they would if every vote was created equal. This might make sense in a situation where each "state" acted like a state in the way the member states of the EU work. But they don't - the federal government at the end of the day has way more power than was ever originally intended. This may not actually be such a bad thing (our first charter was pretty much thrown away because the states couldn't agree to do anything together) - but it should be recognized as it is.

The senate should be realigned. It should still be a smaller body than the house, but based solely on the number of residents in each state. Why should people in Montana have more of a say than California? The senate gives large land owners more rights than their fellow citizens. I thought people came here to leave european feudalism?

Districting for the house needs to be mandated federally using a consistent system for all districts. The system is gamed by the parties - and that's to nobodies advantage - especially the third party candidates!

This is not a view, however you'll see on Fox News - it runs counter to the agenda of the party the support.

2. I sort of almost agree. The question of frivolous lawsuits as your described can be solved using the loser pays system. This system has proved to keep BS lawsuits down in most other western countries.

However, you have to understand our entire system is built on law. Some questions have to be answered by interpretation of the most important legal document in our country: the constitution. I know that in many countries, even western european ones, the law is the law and is not subject to interpretation. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not - but here, when there's a question of ambiguity with regards to the law we consult prior decisions, as well as written documents which leads me into 3...

3. Yes and no. You seem like a Fox News supporter. Gay Rights and Abortion are wedge issues that both the dems and repubs use to energize their base. And Fox News exploits this to the extreme. They phrase as it as 'saving the institution of marriage' and 'protecting unborn children'. These issues for the right are meant to keep the fundamentalist religious people voting for them.

But for the woman who can't have children because many years ago she got an abortion from a coat hanger doctor - this is issue is about more than energizing the base. It's about their life - about their life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. Abortion itself does not make anyone happy, and I have my own personal opinions about this which differ from both the left and the right (which includes forced sterilization for repeat offenders - NOBODY likes my opinion : -)

For gay people its a practical question. To be able to choose to pull their loved one off of life support, power of attorney in financial matters etc. I have no problem with separate but equal designations.

Now - if you got rid of these two wedge issues - what would the cable news companies have to talk about for 86400 seconds a day? Where would the voting demographics on either side of the issues go? These wedge issues stay the way they are because they give both parties power.

4. Agree, no arguments. I say personal contributions of no more than $100 a piece and federally financed elections (for major elected offices). I also say electronic voting with a full paper trail for audit.

5. I agree. But lets not just talk about individual families - conglomerates, shadow corporations, off shore tax havens. Fix the whole mess. Both parties say they want to do it - but neither does.

But lets be honest here. If you disagree with these practices, you have to recognize that while both parties have sucked - Obama has started the crack down on the tax shelters. He has pushed for a higher federal minimum wage. Guess which news agency slammed him for this?

And then you have the estate tax. I think this deals directly with family empires like the Waltons - and not paying their share. Find out who pushed most for repeal - is that he party you support?

Large corporations leverage public infrastructure and public resources. Have you read about the interior department's hooker and cocaine parties with gas executives footing the bill? Yeah the guys who hand out the rights to these same companies to tap the nation's resources...

I don't know dude... You're liberal or conservative. It seems to be you have an open mind - one that I think would see through the garbage that spews from cable news. Heck, television in general...

"Television, the drug of a nation

Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation"

For me, I listen to the radio (NPR, BBC World Service, Deutsche Welle, Aljazeera English, etc etc) and I read a lot of stuff online. Defending fox news or biased CNBC pundits is like defending the behavior of a racist old uncle "he's old, he just doesn't know any better". There's no excuse for poor behavior - or bad journalism.