48% of Americans would opt out of Social Security if given a choice

[Peikko 1,575]

It all depends if you honestly believe that everyone has an equal opportunity to earn more than the day to day living requirement. I honestly do not think that's true. There are too many 'subsistence' level jobs. During their normal working lives most people work extremely hard, they do all they can do to not be a burden on society, to take care of themselves and their families but if you are in a subsistence job if anything goes wrong, you are sunk. This idea that there are lots and lots of people out there too irresponsible to bother with their future is absolute bunkum. There are a few, sure, but most are not like that, not at all.

Whether SS is the best way to deal with this situation is another matter though. It does not appear to be a very adequate solution to the problem.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Whether SS is the best way to deal with this situation is another matter though. It does not appear to be a very adequate solution to the problem.

SS retirement does a great job of helping people who don't need their help

[Peikko 1,575]

If people are too irresponsible to save for their retirement, then they deserve what they get. I feel no compulsion to help my fellow citizens with non-essential services. Healthcare is a primary need for all men and women. Retirement is not something that can be planned for on any macro level, nor is it the responsibility of the government or its citizens. It is a personal, or family matter that needs to be addressed individually.

Food and shelter are non-essential but healthcare is essential? That's a rather odd view...

My point is that there are some responsibilities that are that of the individual, and some that are more communal.... Healthcare is more communal, whereas providing your family with food and shelter is an individual responsibility.

So that takes us back to the scores of old folk sitting hungry in the streets. But at least in your world they'll have health care available to them. Awesome!

So i'm supposed to help pay into some general retirement fund for those who weren't able to do it themselves? That's not my problem, nor is it my responsibility, and neither is it the job of the government.

Who's problem is it? The church? You are part of a society, we all are. If we benefit from being in a society that everyone contributes to then we should at least recognise that we have a responsibility to that society too. Part of that responsibility is to take care of those who genuinely can't take care of themselves, be it through disability, illness or that fact that there are not enough jobs for everyone that pay beyond day to day living requirements.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

If people are too irresponsible to save for their retirement, then they deserve what they get. I feel no compulsion to help my fellow citizens with non-essential services. Healthcare is a primary need for all men and women. Retirement is not something that can be planned for on any macro level, nor is it the responsibility of the government or its citizens. It is a personal, or family matter that needs to be addressed individually.

Food and shelter are non-essential but healthcare is essential? That's a rather odd view...

My point is that there are some responsibilities that are that of the individual, and some that are more communal.... Healthcare is more communal, whereas providing your family with food and shelter is an individual responsibility.

So that takes us back to the scores of old folk sitting hungry in the streets. But at least in your world they'll have health care available to them. Awesome!

So i'm supposed to help pay into some general retirement fund for those who weren't able to do it themselves? That's not my problem, nor is it my responsibility, and neither is it the job of the government.

But many of those that would be left stranded without SS in their old age are contributing to the pool today whilst they would not if they didn't have to. That's all I'm saying. There's a reason, I suppose, that SS contributions are taken from income up to 90K or so only and not on income earned above that point.

[The_Dude 1,142]

Whether SS is the best way to deal with this situation is another matter though. It does not appear to be a very adequate solution to the problem.

SS retirement does a great job of helping people who don't need their help

There are far too many people who look at SS as THE retirement. It's not a primary retirement package, only a supplemental one.

How many people are willing to pay higher taxes and subsequently lower their own standard of living in order to accomodate everyone who wasn't able to? I don't mean to sound calous about this because I do feel compassion for those who aren't able to make enough money to save beyond their current situation. I just don't think it is the responsibility of the citizens of this country or the government to provide a retirement package for people. But then again, I'm a Libertarian

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

You can't run a country if everyone is an engineer or accountant or quant or lawyer or doctor. You still need manual labor, quite a bit of it. Therefore, by definition, suggesting that people should go get skills/jobs that pay more is actually quite undesirable. You don't want that. What you do want is for people to do those jobs and you want them to not end up on the streets when that combination of old age and stress of the job wears them out.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

You can't run a country if everyone is an engineer or accountant or quant or lawyer or doctor. You still need manual labor, quite a bit of it. Therefore, by definition, suggesting that people should go get skills/jobs that pay more is actually quite undesirable. You don't want that. What you do want is for people to do those jobs and you want them to not end up on the streets when that combination of old age and stress of the job wears them out.

[rebeccajo 14]

You can't run a country if everyone is an engineer or accountant or quant or lawyer or doctor. You still need manual labor, quite a bit of it. Therefore, by definition, suggesting that people should go get skills/jobs that pay more is actually quite undesirable. You don't want that. What you do want is for people to do those jobs and you want them to not end up on the streets when that combination of old age and stress of the job wears them out.

Isn't common sense a wonderful thing?

[Niels Bohr 72]

If people are too irresponsible to save for their retirement, then they deserve what they get. I feel no compulsion to help my fellow citizens with non-essential services. Healthcare is a primary need for all men and women. Retirement is not something that can be planned for on any macro level, nor is it the responsibility of the government or its citizens. It is a personal, or family matter that needs to be addressed individually.

Been to countries where people don't have social security, and government benefits?

[Heracles 417]

You can't run a country if everyone is an engineer or accountant or quant or lawyer or doctor. You still need manual labor, quite a bit of it. Therefore, by definition, suggesting that people should go get skills/jobs that pay more is actually quite undesirable. You don't want that. What you do want is for people to do those jobs and you want them to not end up on the streets when that combination of old age and stress of the job wears them out.

Isn't common sense a wonderful thing?

I thought you where pro illegal aliens though. Supporting blue collar workers yet advocating for cheap imported labor, contradicts itself.

[The_Dude 1,142]

If people are too irresponsible to save for their retirement, then they deserve what they get. I feel no compulsion to help my fellow citizens with non-essential services. Healthcare is a primary need for all men and women. Retirement is not something that can be planned for on any macro level, nor is it the responsibility of the government or its citizens. It is a personal, or family matter that needs to be addressed individually.

Been to countries where people don't have social security, and government benefits?

Yes I have. You're point being?

[alienlovechild 75]

This idea that there are lots and lots of people out there too irresponsible to bother with their future is absolute bunkum. There are a few, sure, but most are not like that, not at all.

The savings rate has been near 0% for most Americans and the debt is widespread. It doesn't necessarily track with income as many simply spend more with added income.

SS is a vast Ponzi scheme doomed to failure. The likely outcome will be a lessening of benefits and more people

living with their kids has they have for centuries. Retirement in luxury was a rare thing for a reason- have a huge portion of population doing nothing while continuing to tax a shrinking tax base doesn't end well.

[Heracles 417]

If people are too irresponsible to save for their retirement, then they deserve what they get. I feel no compulsion to help my fellow citizens with non-essential services. Healthcare is a primary need for all men and women. Retirement is not something that can be planned for on any macro level, nor is it the responsibility of the government or its citizens. It is a personal, or family matter that needs to be addressed individually.

Been to countries where people don't have social security, and government benefits?

Yep Australia. No SS there. We have the pension and the superannuation scheme. Comparing a third world country to the US is silly. What you should do is compare other first world countries to the US. That is, compare their retirement systems.

PS Rob and Mel is not talking about benefits.

[The_Dude 1,142]

Lol, this is just one of those topics where us Libertarians tend to side with the conservatives

[rebeccajo 14]

You can't run a country if everyone is an engineer or accountant or quant or lawyer or doctor. You still need manual labor, quite a bit of it. Therefore, by definition, suggesting that people should go get skills/jobs that pay more is actually quite undesirable. You don't want that. What you do want is for people to do those jobs and you want them to not end up on the streets when that combination of old age and stress of the job wears them out.

Isn't common sense a wonderful thing?

I thought you where pro illegal aliens though. Supporting blue collar workers yet advocating for cheap imported labor, contradicts itself.

Oh, stop trying to pick a fight. There's not a single member on this board that is "pro illegal alien" or advocates "cheap imported labor".

As for myself, I simply believe that US immigration policy is too rigid to allow modern day immigrants a chance to come over and sink or swim. I don't condone people circumventing the system. But I'm not going to up and label them all criminals. I haven't walked a mile in their shoes.

Hokey - ain't it?

Edited May 5, 2009 by rebeccajo