North Korea committs widespread torture.

[Heracles 417]

What did we do about Darfur? Or Kenya?

Well we know you guys would rather do nothing than flex a bit of muscle to 'rectify' the situation.

God forbid we use strong-arm tactics against a government who is killing hundreds of thousands of people. Apparently we need to do the Obama and sit down and talk with them. Clearly someone committing genocide against thousands of other humans is more than willing to 'discuss' how wrong he is. Discuss with the same group of people who refuse to get along with conservatives in their own country might I add.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

What did we do about Darfur? Or Kenya?

Well we know you guys would rather do nothing than flex a bit of muscle to 'rectify' the situation.

God forbid we use strong-arm tactics against a government who is killing hundreds of thousands of people. Apparently we need to do the Obama and sit down and talk with them. Clearly someone committing genocide against thousands of other humans is more than willing to 'discuss' how wrong he is. Discuss with the same group of people who refuse to get along with conservatives in their own country might I add.

Straw man and ad hominem arguments are all you've got. Ho-hum...another pointless thread on VJ.

[Heracles 417]

Straw man and ad hominem arguments are all you've got. Ho-hum...another pointless thread on VJ.

There is nothing straw-man about it. More like consequences or byproduct of one's actions or lack of. When you do nothing you are bound to get Sudans, Dafurs, Kosivos, N.Koreas and even another Holocaust. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Something proven time and time again.

I hate to use the cliche label of liberal but come on man. The one thing that always cracks me up is that liberals in the United States make themselves out to be educated. Which many are. Yet funny how for a bunch of educated folks you guys don't seem to acknowledge or accept the byproducts of a change or an attitude. Or the consequence of doing nothing.

Fact of life. Every action, or lack of, has an equal and opposite reaction. A side effect.

[Heracles 417]

What kills me is that every liberal I know always advocates diplomacy and discussion as a means of solving a problem abroad or with a terrorist group. Yet, ironically, these same people absolutely refuse to listen to or accept any views in their home country that differ from their own.

This liberal attitude towards everything is why I have no respect for liberals. Not only will you guys never admit that a change you championed for went sour or was a bad idea but you guys also obviously think that the rest of the world and anyone born prior to the 60's must be some some sort of idiot when compared to you guys.

I better go before I ruffle some feathers and get suspended again.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Boo-yah, arguing isn't masturbation - you've got to actually listen to the other person talking without deliberately mischaracterizing their viewpoint. You should try mirroring with your wife the next time you guys have a spat and then apply what you learned to arguing here on VJ.

[pedroh 21]

they should hire cheney and alberto.. so they can convince the world 'is not torture'

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

BY seems to be under the vague assumption that the world can be saved via the internet and the application of hot air. Perhaps he's one of those people who sends email forwards - thinking that by clicking "send" that he's actually helping.

Countries don't generally intervene in other countries for purely humanitarian reasons - to pretend otherwise is rather naiive.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Paul Daniels

[one...two...tree 2,762]

BY seems to be under the vague assumption that the world can be saved via the internet and the application of hot air. Perhaps he's one of those people who sends email forwards - thinking that by clicking "send" that he's actually helping.

Countries don't generally intervene in other countries for purely humanitarian reasons - to pretend otherwise is rather naiive.

PD, you are correct, but I don't think you'll ever straighten him out. When he gets so off base, it's futile to even try to argue with him.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

BY seems to be under the vague assumption that the world can be saved via the internet and the application of hot air. Perhaps he's one of those people who sends email forwards - thinking that by clicking "send" that he's actually helping.

Countries don't generally intervene in other countries for purely humanitarian reasons - to pretend otherwise is rather naiive.

PD, you are correct, but I don't think you'll ever straighten him out. When he gets so off base, it's futile to even try to argue with him.

It is. But he's fun to laugh at though - how a supposedly educated person can be so bone-crushingly stupid

[one...two...tree 2,762]

BY seems to be under the vague assumption that the world can be saved via the internet and the application of hot air. Perhaps he's one of those people who sends email forwards - thinking that by clicking "send" that he's actually helping.

Countries don't generally intervene in other countries for purely humanitarian reasons - to pretend otherwise is rather naiive.

PD, you are correct, but I don't think you'll ever straighten him out. When he gets so off base, it's futile to even try to argue with him.

It is. But he's fun to laugh at though - how a supposedly educated person can be so bone-crushingly stupid

He's a pretender.

[NickD 203]

Are the Soviets still aiding North Korea? Was a problem before, not only the Soviets, but the Chinese as well. And after some odd 60 years, we still have troops there. Would really hate to be a North Korean leader claiming his form of government is the better one, especially how well the South Koreans have done. It seems like the South Koreans with their industrial might could kick the hell out of the north. Or if nothing else, edge that 38th parallel northward a tad or two until it disappears.

Seems strange that back in the 50's in the Dominion Republic, just killing that one general what's his name changed the entire society from one of fear and torture to a free nation. Incomprehensible why the majority of the population puts up with that #######.

[britbird 4]

The reason the US doesn't do anything:

1) (really cynical answer) no oil...nothing to gain but a bunch of horribly undernourished brainwashed people and a few giant rabbits

2) (other cynical answer) Kim Jong may be killing the population sloooowly via malnutrition, but it's not genocidal enough for people to get upset enough to want to do anything (has to be worse than Rwanda...and that was about as horrific as it gets).

2) (perhaps more realistic answer) they may well have tactical nucs...but more than that, it's the China issue. China would get very very unhappy if a bunch of US soldiers turned up on its doorstep, much like we get very very unhappy with the idea of Russians putting bases etc on Cuba.

3) (resources based answer) our military is overstretched. Wars are unpopular.

4) (Castro-esque answer) North Korea may have wacky spies and some potentially very lethal nuclear bottle rockets, but they don't seem to work very well. Kim Jong won't last forever, and when he keels over the cult of the leader may very well implode like a flan in a cupboard. Just gotta wait...

5) (it's all Cheney's fault! answer) THe US has lost a lot of moral credibility overseas. How the heck can we lecture on torture given what's been going on at black sights/Bagram/Abu Ghirab/Gitmo (watch Taxi to the Dark Side and get angry!).

Reasons why we should do something

1) Spent the last 8 years (and before! Democrats aren't immune from criticism on this one!) going on about how dictators are bad, and freedom and liberty are great, and we got rid of Saddam because he was a threat to the US (oops!) and was killing his own people (sound familiar?), and ignoring the international community.

2) Human beings are suffering and it might be a good idea to do something about that.

And what I would really like to see: an end to people playing the 'this is conservative or this is liberal, and I'm going to put you in one of those two boxes and say you suck or rock depending on which one i favor' game. Because, let's face it, we are all a little bit of both.

End monologue.

(And my answer? I don't know what the heck to do. But I sure am glad I live here and not there!)

[NickD 203]

In the same light, don't like that many shipyards in Wisconsin are deserted today because all those ships are made in South Korea. All of our submarines used in WW II were made in Manitowoc, that town is falling apart along with many others.

Shouldn't the North Koreans be the South Koreans problem and not ours? It's their people they should be concerned about and since WW II due to executive orders we spend trillions plus the lives of our own troops to handle situations like this, and in consequence are severely paying the price ourselves making this not such a hot place to live in. Being taxed to death, plus have to sacrifice our loved ones. That isn't right either.

[britbird 4]

The difficulty is, it's not just about one country. It's about regional security and stability. I guess the calculation is that it would cost far more resources to deal with the Korean's kicking off again and then having Russia and China brought into the mix, than it would to throw money at the problem in a preventative (or band aid depending on your POV) way.

The other issue is the politics and spending cogs turn slowly, and it's oftentimes easier to go along with what administrations did in the past than open up a whole can of worms. Plus, the US has got other things to worry about at the moment. Kind of like "which kid do I deal with first? The one who is doing crystal meth, or the one who is shoplifting, or the one who is bullying a kid at school" it's all bad, but when you can't deal with everything all at once you've got to make choices.

[Heracles 417]

It is. But he's fun to laugh at though - how a supposedly educated person can be so bone-crushingly stupid

Ironically something you have said about pretty much everyone you disagree with. Yet when challenged to back it up you pull what is know as a PD and then make it out as if the member you are attacking who is challenging you is some sort of freak. Good try mate but this tactic of yours does not work with me.

But anyway. We must all be stupid unlike you, a writer of all things. One of the easiest courses/fields to get into at my old college. Actually the lowest SAT equivalent requirement of any field. After all 26,000 posts later and not even 2% of your posts actually involve discussing a topic or forming an opinion of your own about the topic. Rather, the other 98% involve your opinion of other member's posts or them.

What proof? Like many others, check out post 22 & 24 of this thread. That is your only posts in the thread of course.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Constellation