The Right Wing's Latest Argument Against Public Health Care -- We'd Like It Too Much

[Danno 1,228]

The top dog of the United way in my city was Pulling in over 2 million in salary and benefits, so what does that tell you?

I don't understand this point. Look at what the top dogs at the pharmaceuticals are pulling in.

Pharmaceuticals are a Business, they sell products.

The United Way is a Non Profit organization. (which shakes down many employees in their drives)

Since we are not compelled to give money to either, (unlike the Gov't), I could not care less how much they make or spend.

[Danno 1,228]

Wow this thread sounds like a socialist revolution just waiting to happen!

If "quality Healthcare" is a "right" than why isn't quality housing or quality food or quality transportation.... or or or...

The list can go on and on when it comes to basic human needs.

This argument is a fallacy. How about "If quality healthcare isn't a right, then why is the fire department, police department, air traffic control...or or or...the list can go on and on and on."

I wonder if the "big hearts" on here who feel so strongly about giving all this healthcare away are doing that right now with your own resources??? Do you help pay for a neighbors premium?

Then why would you, who feel so strongly about doing it... yet don't....

demand it of others?

Also a non-starter. You could say that about anything. If you believe in the Iraq war so much, why aren't you out there fighting it? If you believe in low taxes so much, why aren't you withholding what you consider to be excessive from the government? Just because you aren't willing to throw your entire life into a belief doesn't mean it's not a strong, serious belief.

I'm always amazed at the people who actually believe the Govt is going to get (even deeper) involved in healthcare... and it will be more affordable, that defies logic.

And yet study after study shows that it *can* be done. It doesn't have to be 100% government. And this is the United States, we are leaders in innovation. I think we can do socialized medicine better than France or Canada or whoever you care to list as a nation that does national health care poorly.

But let's be honest, you want the Healthcare system to run like the Post office; ya know..

you pay 42 Cents for a stamp and pretend you actually just paid the full postage to deliver a letter.

(as if the post office is self supporting).

You know why it's only 42 cents? Because everybody pays 42 cents. How much does it cost to send just a regular letter via FedEx? At least $7-$8. That's the difference between national health care and what we've got now in a nut shell.

When we demand that someone elses labor pay for our benefit... that's like SLAVERY.

Again...we demand that someone else pay for our police and fire protection, does that make us slaves? Are we slaves because we only fly once or twice a year and yet we are always paying for air traffic control? Are we slaves because we are paying for a military that keeps our borders safe?

If it were just a problem of cost, I could understand. But I do not understand the dogmatic resistance to a national health care system. If a socialized health care system could be shown to be a net overall positive to this country (in terms of curtailing disease, increasing worker productivity and increasing the US's ability to compete in international markets) wouldn't that be something worth supporting? Or do you oppose it based purely on ideology that paying for your neighbor to be healthy is bad?

That you would compare the obligation of "national security" or Courts and public safety with the Right to quality Healthcare, Housing, transportation, education or any other "elective" act of Gov't shows me I still have a lot of work to do here.

Honestly, my biggest concern is with everyone jumping off the cliff at once.

Why not do some of these Healthcare programs in a few states and see how it goes?

Once we start down this road, we know the natural reflex of Gov't is to fix failure with more Gov't. It will take over more and more of healthcare in order to "fix it".

If we at least had different states, doing it different ways we could compare and know if one style is working better than another.

I don't want to take a pot-shot but isn't that exactly what has happened with Education?

Can anyone say the average child has a better education today than a child 50 years ago?

(even with nearly unlimited dollars).

-------

As for the Post office, I am stunned that you think .42 cents is all it cost to send a letter.

I forget how much in tax dollars it takes to keep the Postal service door open (so your stamp is only .42) but I did just read, the US Postal service received 1.265 Billion (with a B) ..in just "emergency funds" since 2001.

How much money did or does Fedex get or UPS from the Federal Budget?

The Post office also has a Monopoly on mail, thats why you can't even put a flyer in a neighbors mail box without breaking the law.

In fact Fedex and UPS are the best thing that's happened to the US post office, remember the old days?

We are already now operating "In the RED" , let's just keep adding more Gov't give-a-ways before we figure out how to deal with existing ones that are snow balling on us now.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Dieing in line, wating to get care is good? Just like Carol's mom did. Now thats disgusting!

That's a straw man argument.

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute. Then, one attributes that position to the opponent. For example, someone might deliberately overstate the opponent's position.[1] While a straw man argument may work as a rhetorical technique—and succeed in persuading people—it carries little or no real evidential weight, since the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2]

She died in her home just after coming home from a public health facility! She collapsed on her mother from massive internal bleeding, but of course the anti-biotics they gave her for it, didnt help!

Have some STRAW,man.

[Mags 112]

Dieing in line, wating to get care is good? Just like Carol's mom did. Now thats disgusting!

That's a straw man argument.

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute. Then, one attributes that position to the opponent. For example, someone might deliberately overstate the opponent's position.[1] While a straw man argument may work as a rhetorical technique—and succeed in persuading people—it carries little or no real evidential weight, since the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2]

She died in her home just after coming home from a public health facility! She collapsed on her mother from massive internal bleeding, but of course the anti-biotics they gave her for it, didnt help!

Have some STRAW,man.

But, this happens with many patients regardless of whether or not it is privately or publicly funded...

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Dieing in line, wating to get care is good? Just like Carol's mom did. Now thats disgusting!

That's a straw man argument.

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute. Then, one attributes that position to the opponent. For example, someone might deliberately overstate the opponent's position.[1] While a straw man argument may work as a rhetorical technique—and succeed in persuading people—it carries little or no real evidential weight, since the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2]

She died in her home just after coming home from a public health facility! She collapsed on her mother from massive internal bleeding, but of course the anti-biotics they gave her for it, didnt help!

Have some STRAW,man.

You should probably cite your source.

You're using ONE incident to say that the entire concept is broken. THAT is a straw man argument--you are distilling the entirety of the argument down into one single incident for you to easily attack. It doesn't address the actual merits of the argument at all. Sometimes the Fire Department fails to save a home from burning down. That doesn't mean the entire concept of a fire department is flawed.

Yep! Thats it, she was the only one! Your fireman analogy is on fire son. Hope the sheep dog comes soon to put you back in the herd.

Lets just replace your loved one in the place of my wifes mom in my distilled facts. Im sure you wont be comparing firemen to fcking burning buildings.

[William33 110]

It's Christmas.....Let's not argue, ok?

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Ok well I can see it's pointless to engage with you at all on any subject. Best of luck to you.

It wasnt pointless, its just that the points were way to sharp for your dull argument. One more thing,be careful what you wish for.

It's Christmas.....Let's not argue, ok?

Comon Willie! Its a debate thats all! Sheesh. Do somethin important!

[William33 110]

Ok well I can see it's pointless to engage with you at all on any subject. Best of luck to you.

It wasnt pointless, its just that the points were way to sharp for your dull argument. One more thing,be careful what you wish for.

It's Christmas.....Let's not argue, ok?

Comon Willie! Its a debate thats all! Sheesh. Do somethin important!

I am Dude! I am prepping for Christmas dinner and drinking Gentleman Jack! A gift from a co-worker.

Meanwhile, posting here.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

It wasnt pointless, its just that the points were way to sharp for your dull argument.

Yes, the "your position is stupid because it's all about me and my pain" argument is whatchacall razor sharp and always teh win.

One more thing,be careful what you wish for.

I have no idea what you're talking about, but I really don't care either. Have fun.

I see I made my point! Back to the herd son!

Ok well I can see it's pointless to engage with you at all on any subject. Best of luck to you.

It wasnt pointless, its just that the points were way to sharp for your dull argument. One more thing,be careful what you wish for.

It's Christmas.....Let's not argue, ok?

Comon Willie! Its a debate thats all! Sheesh. Do somethin important!

I am Dude! I am prepping for Christmas dinner and drinking Gentleman Jack! A gift from a co-worker.

Meanwhile, posting here.

Right-on Willie sippin a little 8 year VO myself! ching ching!

[Empress of Groovy 373]

She died in her home just after coming home from a public health facility! She collapsed on her mother from massive internal bleeding, but of course the anti-biotics they gave her for it, didnt help!

Have some STRAW,man.

That's terribly sad, but that sort of thing happens in the U.S. all the time. A major difference between many countries and the U.S. is that here, not only are grieving family members dealing with the loss of a loved one, but also medical bills. If we're going to pull from anecdotes, my stepmother was paying medical bills related to my dad's esophageal cancer care for years after he died. This was 10 years ago, and they had what they thought was decent insurance through my stepmother's employer. I can only imagine what equivalent expenses would be now. Much of the bills were from repeated emergency room visits for complications from chemo, and a staph infection that he picked up in the hospital. He died after 14 months of aggressive chemo and radiation treatments, and terrible suffering. This, in the most glorious (and expensive) healthcare system in the world! Imagine receiving bills from the hospital that failed to save your spouse. Or indeed your child? A good friend of mine lost her 8-year-old son to cancer in 1994 after three heartbreaking years of illness and deterioration, and she would have gone bankrupt from medical expenses had it not been for the help of her family and numerous local charities (only one still exists). Should parents of critically ill children have to hold bake sales for their children's treatment? Here they do. What kind of society allows for this? One that has deluded itself into thinking that people should simply fend for themselves and that whatever is being charged in the free market is somehow fair. And people who blindly believe that our system is superior simply because it's more expensive.

Private, for-profit care does not equal better care, it equals more expensive care that suits few at the literal and figurative expense of many. This system f*cks many more people than it helps, as compared with universal systems that are free at the point of care.

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[Empress of Groovy 373]

It's Christmas.....Let's not argue, ok?

Well, it seems that many of us agree that this is a crazy request!

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Dieing in line, wating to get care is good? Just like Carol's mom did. Now thats disgusting!

That's a straw man argument.

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute. Then, one attributes that position to the opponent. For example, someone might deliberately overstate the opponent's position.[1] While a straw man argument may work as a rhetorical technique—and succeed in persuading people—it carries little or no real evidential weight, since the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2]

She died in her home just after coming home from a public health facility! She collapsed on her mother from massive internal bleeding, but of course the anti-biotics they gave her for it, didnt help!

Have some STRAW,man.

But, this happens with many patients regardless of whether or not it is privately or publicly funded...

I guess if you see a loved one layin in a hallway blowing up like a balloon and then sent home with some penicillin, is healthcare then just hand-out pistols with every diagnosis.Just cuz thats what you experienced doesnt make it good or right. The shite happens mentality aint workin.

[Empress of Groovy 373]

What's the matter, you?! This is riveting!

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