Freedom of Movement in the MENA Countries?

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Olivia, I was implying that I'd seek out an American expat living in Egypt who is married to an Egyptian, not an Egyptian expat living in US married to an American.

I know and I was pointing out two possible American Expats living Egypt, however several former American Expats who lived in Egypt did respond such as Tasha, and Jeanne. I know there are a few more that have as well before me and I wish they would also respond.

Bridget and Tamara are both formerly American Expats in Egypt to name a few.

[caybee 21]

I was also "hidden away" just one time. My then-fiance's relatives from the countryside made a surprise visit, and after I met the aunt, my husband's mom suggested that I go to my room for the rest of the night (it was already dark by then). It was a nice room with a TV, and my husband brought my dinner in and ate with me, then I went straight to bed, so it wasn't a problem. My husband told me later that the relatives were there to find out about me and report back, and my MIL didn't want to put me on the spot or give them much to talk about. That's the only time I felt hidden. I was introduced to my husband's friends and relatives from his neighborhood. No "strange men" came to the house, but I'm shy with strangers and probably would have hung out in my room anyway if there'd been any. But that room was comfortable, no windows but a skylight. Being sent to a small, disorganized room with no ventilation would have felt strange.

As to it sounding like the workmen were eating, they probably were. My husband told me when he did odd jobs for people, it was customary for them to feed him something while he was there.

[sereia 0]

I traveled freely throughout all of Morocco alone long before I ever met my husband....then after we met I was babied and not allowed to go anywhere by myself because I'm the American girl who obviously can't handle herself...I think its just natural for them to want to take care of us and make sure we're safe.

I fought with them a few times wanting to go on my own (I'm not scared at all, but understand totally why others could be, not putting anyone here down at all...) and they never would allow me. It got very frustrating because I'm a free bird and like to wander around alone sometimes! They always repeated how unsafe it was. I would get approached by men or my bag stolen or something according to them...

About the whole "hidden away in a room" thing... never happened but I've heard that happens very frequently.

I wish I could give advice to the OP on the question she actually asked but hey, I too agree she should ask someone actually living in Egypt, not a bunch of girls who haven't really been there that long to really know. But maybe the girls here who apparently did live there can give advice? Or better yet, talk to the consulate? Read travel.state.gov? I still think real government sources are a better bet. Good luck, I hope your answer is what you're looking for.

Edited November 23, 2008 by Sheherazade

[Staashi 371]

Olivia, I was implying that I'd seek out an American expat living in Egypt who is married to an Egyptian, not an Egyptian expat living in US married to an American.

I know and I was pointing out two possible American Expats living Egypt, however several former American Expats who lived in Egypt did respond such as Tasha, and Jeanne. I know there are a few more that have as well before me and I wish they would also respond.

Bridget and Tamara are both formerly American Expats in Egypt to name a few.

Sorry, I never heard the stories. How long did they live there - months or years? Did they bear children while there? I guess I would want to know as an American, what are my rights in Egypt or any country for that matter. That is why I suggested the State Dept as they could best tell you what you are entitled to do in Egypt beyond what your husband would allow you to do. They also might let you know what Egyptian law says can be punishment for a wife who disobeys her husband...which we aren't too familiar with over here anymore - you know "the rule of thumb" is passe. They might also have a posting as to when they'll intervene on your behalf and when they won't.

Just stuff to check into.

[sara535 15]

Bridget and Tamara are both formerly American Expats in Egypt to name a few.

maybe I am wrong but I dont think Bridget ever lived in Egypt. Visiting for a few weeks doesnt make one an expat.....

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Staashi apparently we have some Expats on here that could help shed light on the truth of some regions they live in. HLM is an Egyptian Expat in America now, and ninoquinn is an American? Expat living in Egypt, and there was another American? Expat living in Egypt names Aisha who commented in my Human Rights in Egypt thread several months ago. Who else... isn't Henia an American? Expat in Algeria as well? I'd like to hear from them.

Jeanne I don't know if Wael is right. Maybe legally but socially there are some constraints. I can recall one such incident where my Husband restricted my freedom of movement in his friend Waleed's house in Hurghada. I had just taken a shower and some men came over to clean the apartment and fix some electricity they said. So my Husband put me in the spare room and told me to stay in there until the men leave. I was locked in there for an hour before I had to open the window to the balcony to get some air in my dungeon. The men were taking some time. My Husband patrolled the balcony and would not let me even stick my arm out the window to let them see me. It was very controlling but gentle and I didn't understand what was going on but apparently if the men knew that there was a western woman in the apartment of two Egyptian Males they may seek the police because morally it looks bad even if I am the wife of one of the Egyptians. We were newlyweds visiting and we didn't have our marriage contract with us because it was in process in Cairo for translation to English.

Or maybe not everyone knows you are married to him.

My husbands family was furious that my husband left me in the apartment for days on end and dressed me up so crazily. They actually conspired to plan my escape and forced him to take me out and took me on car rides and out to see things and yelled at him about it.( He apparently didnt want his girlfriends to see me out) They ( his family) werent buying it and gleefully spied on him, told on him and took me places.

I think alot of these guys lie about being married in the first place ( dont tell people) Thats why they do this "hiding".

Scherazade, the people from the country who were sent to report back probably didnt know he was married either and she ( the mom) didnt want to get into explaining. I think some of the hiding is jealousy, some is showing the neighbors that you are a good muslim girl, some is saving him from gossip, and well...I remembered just now that the women from the dress shop in the market asked my sil how old I was 2 years ago and she lied and made me 35. I am not buying half the stuff anyone says to me to begin with now anyway... ( I have become like them LOLLOLOL)

Lets just say ANYTHING is possible. Also Olivia , you are smart and gorgeous believe you me with a wonderful personality and if he wants to be like he is,he ll find out real quick the gem he is married to. I told you to do your makeup , y our hair and enjoy your life and take pictures of yourself all kinds of fabulous places..Be happy in your own life ( I am having issues with that being that my main fantasies is about what kind of tombstone this one will have and that one) So if you have a chance to be shallow and happy,,,,please enjoy.. ( I never seem to be able anymore/// I have a permanent dark look in my eyes.. like I am empty) I dont believe half the stuff ANYONE says from over there just because I have seen so much non sense that I say follow your gut and enjoy yourself. Dont buy what he says.. Talk to people who have lived there one year or more

[Staashi 371]

Talk to people who have lived there one year or more

That's who I would want to know from...someone who LIVED there, not just a visit for a few weeks or months.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Talk to people who have lived there one year or more

That's who I would want to know from...someone who LIVED there, not just a visit for a few weeks or months.

Well I lived for several years in Northern Europe and believe you me, you find out stuff when the honey moon wears off

Interesting article about gigolos staashi

Sex, Sun, Stupidity and Gigolos PDF Print E-mail

Written by Diana Appleyard

Tuesday, 22 April 2008

The handsome young waiter's eyes followed Sarah as she walked across the restaurant, and she felt her heart beating faster as he leaned over to place a napkin in her lap.

"At 54, I was unused to the attention of young men, especially a handsome one in his 20s," she says. "Our eyes connected as I told myself not to be silly - he couldn't possibly be interested in me. But I was wrong."

Sarah Jarvis is 59 and has four grown-up children and four grandchildren.

Attractive, slim and smartly dressed, she has been divorced from her lawyer husband for 15 years, and had resigned herself to a series of uninspiring dates with overweight, balding men of her own age at home in Chester.

But here, on holiday with a girlfriend in the Turkish resort of Dalaman, was the promise of something very different.

For Sarah was about to become one of the many thousands of British women courted by the legions of young foreign men in such tourist hotspots as Turkey, Egypt, Jamaica, the Gambia and Kenya.

This summer, thousands of these middle-aged, single women will pour off the planes, to be met by countless fit, athletic-looking dark-skinned young men who will casually approach them, saying: "What a beautiful lady you are. Can I help you find your hotel?"

The chance of a harmless sexual fling, or something more sinister?

Writer Jeannette Belliveau, a self-confessed former "sex tourist" and author of a book called Romance On The Road, says the problem is becoming endemic and that these women are deluding themselves about the dangers such flings present.

"The ultimate risk is death," she says, bluntly. "In the past two years three Western women have been killed for their money by their foreign 'toy boys'."

Some of these women tourists never went home after their holiday. Barbara Scott-Jones, 61, from Leeds fell in love with Jamaica and was building a home on the island when she was found dead earlier this year.

Labourer Omar Reid has been charged with her murder.

Police believe Barbara had been having an affair with the 30-year-old and had just ended, or was trying to end, the affair when she was killed.

The number of older women who form long-term relationships with holiday gigolos is growing year on year.

Statistically, a third of all cross-cultural "marriages" end in divorce, and Jeannette says the naivety of the women involved is unbelievable.

"Most of them are middle class and intelligent, which makes their behaviour even more baffling," she says.

"These guys are after their money, pure and simple, and the ultimate goal is marriage so they can get a visa and move to the UK. The fact that they can fall for lines such as 'You are so gorgeous' is ridiculous."

Fifty-three-year-old Jeannette, from Surrey, divorced in her early 30s.

A few years later, despairing of the lack of dates in the UK, she began to travel the world and had numerous sexual encounters with young, foreign men.

Today, she is married to Lamont Harvey, a historian ten years her junior.

"The trouble is that for divorced or widowed women in their 40s, 50s and 60s, their male peers in the UK are either very unattractive or are looking to date much younger women.

"In countries such as the Gambia and Kenya, there is both a surplus of men and the fact that women there tend to marry men at least ten years older than themselves, which is the culture. So for 18-year-old and 20-plus men, there is no one to date.

"Poverty is rife. Then, over the past ten years, planeloads of mature single British women have started arriving, their handbags full of cash. They're fit, good-looking men and it didn't take them long to realise that there are rich pickings here."

Sarah now realises how deluded she was during her Turkish fling. She began sleeping with Mohammed, a waiter, almost as soon as they met.

"The sex was amazing," she says. "Either Mohammed was a very good actor - which is more than possible - or he genuinely enjoyed going to bed with me.

Pauline Collins played a bored housewife who fell in love with a Greek man on holiday in Shirley Valentine

"Imagine what it was like for me, a fifty-something women who felt abandoned, unloved and on the shelf, thinking no man would ever find me attractive again. Here was a beautiful young man with the most incredible, fit body, begging me to go to bed with him.

"Even though alarm bells were ringing, I thought: 'Why not? What if I never get this opportunity again?'

"He asked me to go for a walk with him when we were in the restaurant. My friend said 'You can't be serious', but I said: 'Why not?' And off we went. He kissed me and before I knew what was happening I was inviting him up to my hotel room."

At 54, Sarah had gone through the menopause and, deciding there was no risk of pregnancy, did not use a condom. "I can now see that this was extremely foolish, as I later discovered Mohammed had slept with hundreds of women," she says. "I could have picked up a sexually transmitted disease, not to mention the threat of Aids."

As they lay together, Mohammed told her he was 22. "For the rest of my holiday we spent most of the time in bed. It must have been awful for my friend, but I didn't care. I was on cloud nine.

"He would look into my eyes and cry, saying: 'I want to grow old with you, and I want to take care of you for the rest of my life.'

"When I left him at the airport he was in tears, making me promise to write every day and come back soon.

"As soon as I got home I phoned him. He mentioned that he needed some new shoes, and could I send a small amount of cash? Still besotted and with the memory of so much happiness, I sent him money.

"Gradually, the requests began to multiply. Could I send him the money for a DVD player, as he did not have one? Whenever alarm bells began to ring and I sounded a bit short with him, he made me promise to fly out and see him.

"Within that year, I flew back to Turkey four times, spending a fortune not only on plane tickets, but on gifts for him."

Meanwhile, back in the UK, her children were highly dubious of mum's new 'boyfriend'. "I didn't dare tell them how young he was, and played down the fact that he was a waiter," she says.

"I said he was in his 30s and ran his own business. They were saying: 'Look, Mum, this guy is clearly a conman.' I told them not to interfere, that I knew what I was doing."

As they lay together in Sarah's hotel bedroom Mohammed poured out all his financial woes: he was responsible for his elderly parents and was the only bread-winner in the family. "He made me feel guilty if I questioned his constant need for money," she says.

For the next three years, Sarah flew to Turkey five times a year. Not only did she give Mohammed thousands of pounds, she also flew him on holiday to Istanbul and the coastal resort of Marmaris.

"Sometimes we'd be walking down the street, hand in hand, and other British tourists would look at us askance," says Sarah. "But I was very defiant - they didn't realise that this was a real relationship, that we were in love."

Sex tourism by British women is not a new phenomenon. As far back as the 1890s, there are recorded incidents of single British women becoming involved with dark-skinned Italian and French men on their cultural 'tours' of Europe.

During the British Raj, it was not unknown for English matrons to fall prey to the darkeyed charms of young Indian men.

But in the past two decades, the phenomenon has escalated. Author Jeannette says that since the 1990s, hundreds of thousands of western women have had affairs with much younger foreign men.

"These are respectable middleclass women. Not all of them are unwitting victims to these sexual conmen," she says. "I have spoken to many women who fly to the Gambia or Jamaica specifically for the purpose of recreational sex."

Indeed, some British women are utterly shameless about it.

Nicky Jardine, 50, who has two adult daughters and runs her own headhunting business in Guildford, Surrey, goes on holidays with the intention of having sex with young foreigners.

"I see nothing wrong in being a sex tourist," she says. "My working life is very stressful. Holidays are a time when I can have fun. I have dated men here, but men my age want younger women, and they are also boring. Compare them to a fit, tanned 20-year-old Egyptian!"

Nicky first had sex on a holiday four years ago. She says: "I went on my own to Egypt. I didn't go looking for sex, but on the first day I became aware I was being eyed up by a very handsome young Egyptian who worked in the hotel complex.

"I told myself not to be silly, but then he approached me and told me I was beautiful." Nicky invited him to her room.

"It was amazing," she says. "Maybe he'd targeted lots of British women before - who cares? I wasn't looking for a long-term romance.

"Of course, you have to realise that these people might be living in poverty. You could be robbed, or even kidnapped. But I felt quite safe when I was with him."

Now she is settled into a pattern of wild holiday flings totally at odds with her respectable image. Indeed, many would argue that her insouciance about such promiscuity is rather demeaning.

Last year, Nicky enjoyed a Caribbean cruise. "A young crew member made advances," she smiles. "We had the most amazing times in my cabin. I'd taken my mum with me, and she knew what was going on. In fact, she said: 'I wish I was 50 again!'"

"I totally understand why more and more British single women like me are going on holiday looking for sex. It's the easiest thing in the world to pick up a young, handsome guy who will tell you are beautiful and make passionate love to you. All it takes is a bit of cash for presents, and I have plenty of that.

"I always practise safe sex, so no one gets hurt. But I would tell women to be careful. Always use a condom and don't go off with these men. They are strangers, after all."

Five years on and Sarah Jarvis no longer looks back on her holiday romance with rose-tinted glasses. "I must have spent more than £20,000 on Mohammed," she says. "On my final trip last year, I rang his mobile as usual when I arrived at the airport. There was no reply.

"I drove to the hotel where he worked as a waiter, and stormed into his tiny room. He was in bed with an elderly, white woman - like me. He rang me, sobbing, saying it was all a mistake and he loved me.

"Later I marched up to the woman in the hotel dining room and asked her, very calmly, what she thought she was doing. She looked at me in surprise. 'But he's my boyfriend,' she said. 'We are in love, and I have been flying backwards and forwards from the UK to see him.

"I told her I had, too. She said she had promised Mohammed she would leave her husband and marry him. I said she was a fool."

Sarah then told Mohammed that his lies had been exposed and ended the relationship. "Speaking to some of the hotel staff, I found out Mohammed had at least 40 white girlfriends," she says. "It must have been a real juggling act making sure we didn't all arrive at the same time. Goodness knows how much money he was making out of us all.

"I know people will think: 'How could you be so stupid?' But you have to realise just how seductive it is, if you feel fat, old and ugly, to have a beautiful young man saying he cannot live without you and making love to you as if you were a stunning creature."

But Sarah adds: "More than anything, I want to send out a warning to all the British women planning a holiday romance this summer: don't do it!

"It will cost you thousands of pounds, and you will end up feeling ridiculous and despised. These are practised conmen - they don't think you are beautiful; they laugh at you behind your backs."

Jeannette agrees. "Wise up," she says. "At the very least you will be fleeced out of hundreds, maybe thousands of pounds. In Kenya and Africa generally, Aids is endemic and you are putting yourself at serious risk.

"Some of these guys are so poor they have nothing to lose, and they may turn violent. If you go off alone with them and change your mind, they may well rape you anyway.

"I know I have been guilty of sex tourism in the past, but there is no way I would take those risks now, knowing what I know."

[Staashi 371]

That is wild! I say, go for the sex...just don't get involved. Wear a condom, give someone the wrong phone number and never look back. Play the player, but don't get played.

Edited November 23, 2008 by Staashi

[Ihavequestions 419]

I'm an American living in Egypt (again).

Women are free to move about as they choose in Egypt and women are free to leave Egypt without their husband's permission.

That's the legalities, however there are also the cultural and husband issues to consider.

Egyptian women married to Egyptian men run the gamut when it comes to permission to leave the home. Some wouldn't consider doing it without asking, others come and go as they please. The western women I know who have married Egyptian men and are living here have reached an amicable compromise with their spouses.

As for having men in the home and stuffing the western wife in a room, yeah, I would say all of the reasons other people have given certainly apply. There is another one: when the repair man comes, if he sees the western wife the price for whatever he's doing will most certainly go up because if he can afford you, he can afford to pay more. It's the mentality.

My experience with police checkpoints never resulted in the investigation of my passport, but it does always require the driver to pass some baksheesh (money in the form of a pay-off) on over to the police officer at the window. Then we are free to move on.

[JeanneVictoria 55]

I was never locked away or told to go to another room. My freedom there was just like it is here. I was free to go anywhere by myself and Wael never told me what I could or could not do. I met many people, went to the salon, went walking, shopped and was treated with respect and kindness.

[sara..... 371]

my elder sis is married to Egypt man she has lived over seas for a few years and says she has no problem infact if a usa women was to even go eh another words make a should of distress the police would be there for any usa person

the country takes the safety of the usa person very serious

[Ihavequestions 419]

They also might let you know what Egyptian law says can be punishment for a wife who disobeys her husband...which we aren't too familiar with over here anymore - you know "the rule of thumb" is passe. They might also have a posting as to when they'll intervene on your behalf and when they won't.

Punishment most certainly can include a beating. Here, it's legal for a husband to beat his wife, his mother, his sister(s), or any other female relative, and that's just the way it is.

When will who intervene? Do you mean the husband? That's up to the husband whether he comes to his wife's defense or not. The decision will most certainly be based up whether he believes she deserves whatever is happening at the moment or not. The police? Well, if you can find one who's actually awake, it's certainly possible you'd get some help, but those are few and far between. Regardless, whether the husband or the police will help, the Embassy will ALWAYS help a US citizen, up to and including a plane ticket home.

[Aymsgirl 0]

I agree repair men and such would charge more. My husband had the price of our flat raised more than 100 pounds a night when they seen he was with me.

I will tell you I had issues with the American Embassy in Egypt and way back when and they didn't walk on water and weren't always there for the American. I won't go into the entire store but they led me out in a back street with no money and said bye bye. Now if they cared they would have made sure I knew where they let me out at knowing that they let my husband out of another door and I had enough cash on me to beg to use somebody's phone or a payphone of some type. Don't always bet they are there for you. I have heard things have changed and I sure hope to God that they have since I had my experience with them and the ones we dealt with aren't there any more.

Edited November 23, 2008 by Aymsgirl

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Good read HIT. Thx for the info peeps. The beating of the wife thing does bring up some issues. I was playing fighting with Waleed in Luxor hitting each other back in forth not uncommonly called "love pats" here. Well the play fighting quickly turned to real pain hitting. I told him where I come from it is ok for a female to hit a male but a male must not hit back. Then I told him the reason behind this is the female can not hit hard and certainly not as hard as a male that doesn't recognize his own strength. My Husband didn't seem to buy that explination of where I came from. So I asked him not to hit many anymore because he doesn't recognize his own strength. To this day I don't know if he is convienced he should not hit me because his hits hurt. The mentality as you said there is it is ok for the men to beat the females. I think my Husband thinks it is ok too because even in the Koran it says this. I've tried to discuss the situation more with him but I don't feel I get anywhere so I frankly told him. If he ever hits me I am gone. There will be no explination and no goodbyes. I would just leave because I do not agree to be hit in my life. Even with that tone of seriousness I don't know if he believes me yet. He's reply is, "If you hit me I will hit back and you will wish you didn't start it." I say that I would never hit him then and I repeat that he better never hit me or I really will be gone for good. He then says I can't believe you would think I would ever hit you. Even though my Koran says it is ok to beat a wife I would never marry a wife that deserves a beating. But beating a wife sometimes is the best thing a man can do for a woman if she is really that disobedient.

Now is that a moderate muslim stand point or what? God help me if it ever came to that.