Georgia/Russia Conflict

[Brad and Vika 129]

There you go mox. My brother, do you still think Russia is acting properly? Dude - you know this isn't personal, look back at earlier posts. Is this the right way to treat a captive civilian population? Really??

I think you might have misunderstood me. I said an Army who doesn't use overwhelming force to accomplish their objectives is doing it wrong. From a military point of view, you either commit completely or not at all. Overwhelming force means military force, not terror and human rights abuses on the local populace. I can understand bombing military targets such as air bases and military installations, even if they are outside the zone of conflict. I cannot understand or endorse the abuses Kotenochek describes. That's not war, that's an abomination.

Kotenochek's report breaks my heart. I can only hope that these actions weren't endorsed by the Russian leadership, but for the average Georgian, it doesn't really matter. They still suffer. To say that it's horrible is to understate the situation by magnitudes, and it's something I wouldn't endorse in a million years.

I do think the West is not helping the situation by unilaterally supporting Georgia. Whatever the crimes perpetrated by Russian soldiers, it needs to be remembered that none of this would have happened if the Georgian President hadn't tried to take South Osettia by force. But now that we are in the situation, the US needs to engage in real, helpful dialogue. The Russians are not going to be intimidated by all this "the cold war is over" #######, especially from a nation that over the last 7 years has lost every bit of moral integrity it ever had.

And what nation would that be?? If you saw the press conference this morning - Conde (for all her many faults) managed to keep a straight face while Sakashvilli ranted for 30 minutes about Russian barbarism. No wonder Putin is pissed at him. That being said - I read that the pro-Russian paramilitary attacked the Georgians first.

[slim 1,533]

Actually I'm waiting for Oprah to have her special on Georgia. Maybe she'll give the entire country new cars.

She could afford it. I'm not really sure of Oprah's net worth, but I'm pretty sure it would rival the GDP of Georgia.

they line up Georgian male from houses and shott them and take women in sexual hostige,included kids...

Just all we can do is pray for all this to stop

That may be all we can do for Georgia.

But that's not all we can do for America. An armed people, trained and proficient in the use of those arms doesn't get lined up and shot and their women and kids don't get taken as "sexual hostages." When we allow ourselves to be victimized, even by a govt., we allow ourselves to become subject to the will of aggressors.

And, before you start arguing about guns just cause more war and more fighting, remind me of the last time America was invaded and atrocities were commited on our soil.

This is not to take anything away from Georgia's unfortunate situation, it's merely to illustrate that the U.S. has placed a very high priority, since it's inception, on being mightily armed. From the military abroad to the private citizen at home, armed people have a means to resist.

It is imperative that people remain armed and proficient in the use of those arms and any possible aggressors, from the lowest levels of govt. to the biggest foreign powers, are constantly reminded of that fact because when they keep that in mind, they tend to find someone else's toothbrush to steal.

Is this the right way to treat a captive civilian population? Really??

A captive people can be treated in any manner the captors feel they should be treated as they've lost their right to protest.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Actually I'm waiting for Oprah to have her special on Georgia. Maybe she'll give the entire country new cars.

She could afford it. I'm not really sure of Oprah's net worth, but I'm pretty sure it would rival the GDP of Georgia.

they line up Georgian male from houses and shott them and take women in sexual hostige,included kids...

Just all we can do is pray for all this to stop

That may be all we can do for Georgia.

But that's not all we can do for America. An armed people, trained and proficient in the use of those arms doesn't get lined up and shot and their women and kids don't get taken as "sexual hostages." When we allow ourselves to be victimized, even by a govt., we allow ourselves to become subject to the will of aggressors.

And, before you start arguing about guns just cause more war and more fighting, remind me of the last time America was invaded and atrocities were commited on our soil.

This is not to take anything away from Georgia's unfortunate situation, it's merely to illustrate that the U.S. has placed a very high priority, since it's inception, on being mightily armed. From the military abroad to the private citizen at home, armed people have a means to resist.

It is imperative that people remain armed and proficient in the use of those arms and any possible aggressors, from the lowest levels of govt. to the biggest foreign powers, are constantly reminded of that fact because when they keep that in mind, they tend to find someone else's toothbrush to steal.

Is this the right way to treat a captive civilian population? Really??

A captive people can be treated in any manner the captors feel they should be treated as they've lost their right to protest.

Wrong-O. All they lack is the right military advisors (i.e. ours) to teach them to not run away from the great bear.

And Oprah will NEVER give away cars in Georgia. They just don't fit under the audience' seats.

[slim 1,533]

Well, that and a GDP like Oprah's!

[Brad and Vika 129]

Well, that and a GDP like Oprah's!

Did Iraq need a GDP? They borrowed ours - and still do.

[slim 1,533]

Did Iraq need a GDP? They borrowed ours - and still do.

You don't see us invading Iran, do you?

6 months ago I'd have disagreed with you. But things have deteriorated so badly within this country, that I'm of the mindset now that a well armed populace is necessary to keep its own government in check. And while I absolutely don't advocate an overthrow of our government, I do believe it's necessary for our government to be afraid of its people. For the first time in my life, I'll probably own a gun within the next 4-6 months.

I also do not advocate the overthrow of our govt. It's not necessary!

mox, you should check out Project Appleseed. I'll make you a deal, if you set up an LTR and sign up for an Appleseed, I'll personally fly out to CA and instruct at the event you go to.

It's that good!

Modified...... if you sign up to go to an Appleseed, I'll fly out there with MY LTR and train you to shoot.

Edited August 16, 2008 by slim

[Okiebollweevil 0]

My wife was a lieutenant in the Russian military. She never fired a weapon. Now I have started her out on a cheapo 22 single action and she shoots pretty tight groups. She loves to shoot. (don't know who she imagines is the target and too afraid to ask) Will probably buy the S&W version of the target revolver to move her up to double action revolver and more accuracy. While shooting last time someone next to us was using a real hand cannon maybe a 454 Casull or something like that. I flinched while they fired and she calmly plinked away. Mox, a good gun for the home is a winchester defender or maybe a 357 large frame revolver loaded with 38 glaser rounds.

[Bobalouie 0]

And what nation would that be?? If you saw the press conference this morning - Conde (for all her many faults) managed to keep a straight face while Sakashvilli ranted for 30 minutes about Russian barbarism. No wonder Putin is pissed at him. That being said - I read that the pro-Russian paramilitary attacked the Georgians first.

Sakashvilli has admitted to invading South Osettia. His justification is that South Osettia is part of Georgia, and he has every right to do so. What he conveniently glosses over is the status quo situation that's existed for many, many years, of Russian "peacekeeping" forces in that region. Whether you agree that the Russians should have been there in the first place, they were there. As I said before, I think Sakashvilli naively believed that the US would come to his aid when the inevitable Russian retaliation came. Imagine his surprise when he realized that the US really has no desire to participate in a 3rd theater of war, especially against a foe with actual teeth.

But that's not all we can do for America. An armed people, trained and proficient in the use of those arms doesn't get lined up and shot and their women and kids don't get taken as "sexual hostages." When we allow ourselves to be victimized, even by a govt., we allow ourselves to become subject to the will of aggressors.

And, before you start arguing about guns just cause more war and more fighting, remind me of the last time America was invaded and atrocities were commited on our soil.

6 months ago I'd have disagreed with you. But things have deteriorated so badly within this country, that I'm of the mindset now that a well armed populace is necessary to keep its own government in check. And while I absolutely don't advocate an overthrow of our government, I do believe it's necessary for our government to be afraid of its people. For the first time in my life, I'll probably own a gun within the next 4-6 months.

Wrong-O. All they lack is the right military advisors (i.e. ours) to teach them to not run away from the great bear.

Actually the Georgian Army was trained by the US.

You are, of course correct, but no one seems to understand what the US military trained the Georgians to do. It was not trained to fight Russian armored columns, it was trained to engage in small unit counter insurgency tactics to keep some of the undesireables from crossing thier borders from Dagestan and setting up shop in thier remote mountain regions and causing trouble. Sakashvilli overplayed his hand, by thinking that a military trained in counterinsurgency work could take on a front line battle objective, and that the Russians would not get involved. The Roki tunnels destruction should have been the opening salvo of the battle, not the capital of S. Ossieta, to keep the Russians from an easy, quick route to the heart of the battle. Of course, this would only have prolonged the inevitable. The only reason that I can think of that they left that tunnel alone is that they didnt want to compound humanitarian issues as the closing of the tunnel would have left the S. Ossietans nowhere to go to escape the battle zone.

[Brad and Vika 129]

My wife was a lieutenant in the Russian military. She never fired a weapon. Now I have started her out on a cheapo 22 single action and she shoots pretty tight groups. She loves to shoot. (don't know who she imagines is the target and too afraid to ask) Will probably buy the S&W version of the target revolver to move her up to double action revolver and more accuracy. While shooting last time someone next to us was using a real hand cannon maybe a 454 Casull or something like that. I flinched while they fired and she calmly plinked away. Mox, a good gun for the home is a winchester defender or maybe a 357 large frame revolver loaded with 38 glaser rounds.

I keep a Ruger 357 handy, but loaded with low grain, soft-point 38s. I think what is most suitable depends on your living arrangement. Since intent does not follow the bullet in all places, I was always uncomfortable with the more powerful loads when I lived close to others.

[Brad and Vika 129]

And what nation would that be?? If you saw the press conference this morning - Conde (for all her many faults) managed to keep a straight face while Sakashvilli ranted for 30 minutes about Russian barbarism. No wonder Putin is pissed at him. That being said - I read that the pro-Russian paramilitary attacked the Georgians first.

Sakashvilli has admitted to invading South Osettia. His justification is that South Osettia is part of Georgia, and he has every right to do so. What he conveniently glosses over is the status quo situation that's existed for many, many years, of Russian "peacekeeping" forces in that region. Whether you agree that the Russians should have been there in the first place, they were there. As I said before, I think Sakashvilli naively believed that the US would come to his aid when the inevitable Russian retaliation came. Imagine his surprise when he realized that the US really has no desire to participate in a 3rd theater of war, especially against a foe with actual teeth.

But that's not all we can do for America. An armed people, trained and proficient in the use of those arms doesn't get lined up and shot and their women and kids don't get taken as "sexual hostages." When we allow ourselves to be victimized, even by a govt., we allow ourselves to become subject to the will of aggressors.

And, before you start arguing about guns just cause more war and more fighting, remind me of the last time America was invaded and atrocities were commited on our soil.

6 months ago I'd have disagreed with you. But things have deteriorated so badly within this country, that I'm of the mindset now that a well armed populace is necessary to keep its own government in check. And while I absolutely don't advocate an overthrow of our government, I do believe it's necessary for our government to be afraid of its people. For the first time in my life, I'll probably own a gun within the next 4-6 months.

Wrong-O. All they lack is the right military advisors (i.e. ours) to teach them to not run away from the great bear.

Actually the Georgian Army was trained by the US.

You are, of course correct, but no one seems to understand what the US military trained the Georgians to do. It was not trained to fight Russian armored columns, it was trained to engage in small unit counter insurgency tactics to keep some of the undesireables from crossing thier borders from Dagestan and setting up shop in thier remote mountain regions and causing trouble. Sakashvilli overplayed his hand, by thinking that a military trained in counterinsurgency work could take on a front line battle objective, and that the Russians would not get involved. The Roki tunnels destruction should have been the opening salvo of the battle, not the capital of S. Ossieta, to keep the Russians from an easy, quick route to the heart of the battle. Of course, this would only have prolonged the inevitable. The only reason that I can think of that they left that tunnel alone is that they didnt want to compound humanitarian issues as the closing of the tunnel would have left the S. Ossietans nowhere to go to escape the battle zone.

That is what I meant - trained for this type of conflict. I just can't accept that the current level of action is justified, although the statement about half measures is well taken.

[PJB 0]

Today's Los Angeles Times quotes an anonymous "American Official" saying that sanctions may be imposed against Russia. One of the sanctions he listed was restricting visas for Russians. This has me worried most of all............

[Brad and Vika 129]

Today's Los Angeles Times quotes an anonymous "American Official" saying that sanctions may be imposed against Russia. One of the sanctions he listed was restricting visas for Russians. This has me worried most of all............

I've got to believe that K visas would be the last sort to be restricted, because thet are done at the request of a USC. Especially a K-3.

[PJB 0]

But if America restricts visas for Russians, Russia will restrict visas for Americans (reciprocity). Which means those of us who have a spouse in Russia won't be able to visit during this long stupid visa wait. Also if we want to visit relatives there it could be complicated or impossible. Then our Russian spouses with American citizenship could have trouble trying to visit back home and may run the risk of not being able to get back here.

[Brad and Vika 129]

But if America restricts visas for Russians, Russia will restrict visas for Americans (reciprocity). Which means those of us who have a spouse in Russia won't be able to visit during this long stupid visa wait. Also if we want to visit relatives there it could be complicated or impossible. Then our Russian spouses with American citizenship could have trouble trying to visit back home and may run the risk of not being able to get back here.

It could get tough for USCs, but wouldn't she be in effect a dual citizen? So Russia wouldn't recognize her US passport, and she would use the Russian one. Vice-versa here.

[Ilya R. 0]

What about Cr-1 Visas, any ideas if they could be affected?