CA divorce/annulment

[confuseddd 0]

I went to speak to "We The People" today about the differences between divorce and annulment. They said they do not do annulments and she advised against it because it was difficult to prove. He either had to fraud me or be of an unsound mind. . He definitely has an unsound mind for many reasons I do not care to discuss on VJ, but how can you PROVE that? I have countless emails I've made discussing my problems, witnesses, etc. But what proof can I really have?!

Has anyone really had successful cases of annulment? Is it even worth it? I would rather have an annulment for my own selfish reasons... to delete this HUGE mistake I've made in my life...

if its at all possible, I will go for it versus a divorce.

[chispas 0]

I went to speak to "We The People" today about the differences between divorce and annulment. They said they do not do annulments and she advised against it because it was difficult to prove. He either had to fraud me or be of an unsound mind. . He definitely has an unsound mind for many reasons I do not care to discuss on VJ, but how can you PROVE that? I have countless emails I've made discussing my problems, witnesses, etc. But what proof can I really have?!

Has anyone really had successful cases of annulment? Is it even worth it? I would rather have an annulment for my own selfish reasons... to delete this HUGE mistake I've made in my life...

if its at all possible, I will go for it versus a divorce.

I live in California and I did research annulment. Either way, you are gonna pay. If you seek annulment, you have to prove that he defrauded you or doesn't have all of his faculties. With privacy laws, even if you had sufficient evidence of your own, its a long process to get the information. As you know, we are a community property state so be prepared to disclose all of your financial data and pray that he hasn't accumulated much debt without your knowledge. If he really committed fraud, there is nothing to stop him from claiming that those are community debts. A good lawyer will help, but it is costly. If you live in California and got married in Nevada, then you can seek annulment in Nevada. Sigh........

[tito 1]

The burden of proof for fraud in connection with a marriage is a formidable one indeed! While there might be some ammunition (for that, or for annulment based on unsound mind), it's a very substantial uphill battle that, if you lose, you might end up on the wrong end of an award for attorney's fees! And I can assure you that there are lawyers out there who do and will fight the fight and then turn around and stick it to the party claiming the right to annulment. They have psychologists, internests, psychiatrists, social workers...you name it!! And if you lived together legitimately as husband and wife, and shared a bed for as little as one night mutually as a couple, then there is no basis for fraud...and the Courts will give a lot of leeway to the principles that concern changes of circumstance to deny a finding of fraud.

Very tough uphill battle, although one that you CAN win under the right circumstances. Your chances of success, depending on the facts naturally, are about 15 - 20%, at best. Not good odds. But I'm not a family or immigration attorney, so for advice that is more sound and appropriate, you should seek the advice of counsel.

Good luck! And remember...sanity is relative!

[chispas 0]

The burden of proof for fraud in connection with a marriage is a formidable one indeed! While there might be some ammunition (for that, or for annulment based on unsound mind), it's a very substantial uphill battle that, if you lose, you might end up on the wrong end of an award for attorney's fees! And I can assure you that there are lawyers out there who do and will fight the fight and then turn around and stick it to the party claiming the right to annulment. They have psychologists, internests, psychiatrists, social workers...you name it!! And if you lived together legitimately as husband and wife, and shared a bed for as little as one night mutually as a couple, then there is no basis for fraud...and the Courts will give a lot of leeway to the principles that concern changes of circumstance to deny a finding of fraud.

Very tough uphill battle, although one that you CAN win under the right circumstances. Your chances of success, depending on the facts naturally, are about 15 - 20%, at best. Not good odds. But I'm not a family or immigration attorney, so for advice that is more sound and appropriate, you should seek the advice of counsel.

Good luck! And remember...sanity is relative!

Well said Tito. Our nalgas are at stake here

[diadromous mermaid 36]

I went to speak to "We The People" today about the differences between divorce and annulment. They said they do not do annulments and she advised against it because it was difficult to prove. He either had to fraud me or be of an unsound mind. . He definitely has an unsound mind for many reasons I do not care to discuss on VJ, but how can you PROVE that? I have countless emails I've made discussing my problems, witnesses, etc. But what proof can I really have?!

Has anyone really had successful cases of annulment? Is it even worth it? I would rather have an annulment for my own selfish reasons... to delete this HUGE mistake I've made in my life...

if its at all possible, I will go for it versus a divorce.

The single most important advantage to an annulment on the basis of fraud would be that it would invalidate the marriage, and thereby release the petitioner from the Affidavit of Support. Termination of a marriage through divorce does not really do the same thing. However, no local judge will annul a marriage without compelling evidence that the petitioner was induced into marriage through misrepresentations made by the respondent.

[tito 1]

It would also invalidate the initial K-1 visa, the application process...EVERYTHING! There's a lot at stake for the immigrant, and if the entire process was fraudulent, there might even be criminal implications (executed petitions, did the interviews, etc., all under penalty of perjury). You can still get out from under the Affidavit of Support, as long as a green card has not yet been issued. Annulment is not the only way, and the longer the marriage goes on, the more difficult the burden of proof for annulment. So, if annulment is being contemplated, it would seem that it's still early enough to pull the plug on the Affidavit of Support.

Nalgas, indeed!

Edited January 24, 2008 by tito

[confuseddd 0]

we've been married just a few months. i WISH we had gone to vegas to get married! thats a shame. Anyway, does anyone know what you need to prove an unsound mind? I do think he has serious mental issues. If I could convince him to see a doctor, get antidepressants, etc? Could that be enough? Could my witnesses and emails describing all that he has done to me, be enough?

PS. Our AOS has not been approved yet.

Edited January 24, 2008 by confuseddd

[tito 1]

we've been married just a few months. i WISH we had gone to vegas to get married! thats a shame. Anyway, does anyone know what you need to prove an unsound mind? I do think he has serious mental issues. If I could convince him to see a doctor, get antidepressants, etc? Could that be enough? Could my witnesses and emails describing all that he has done to me, be enough?

PS. Our AOS has not been approved yet.

Again...the burden of proof to show unsound mind as a basis for annulment is quite substantial. In addition to witnesses (who could only testify as to what they heard, saw, experienced, and so on, but NOT what it meant, or to any medical or psychological conclusion because they are not health care professionals, nor would their observations be admissible to prove the fact you are trying to establish because it would be HEARSAY), and correspondence (which, by themselves, would not be admissible because it would be considered HEARSAY to use them to prove the legal conclusion you are trying to make), you would need expert testimony...it would take at least a year, and about $50,000 in fees when all was said and done. AT LEAST $50,000. You would not be able to rely on statements of witnesses just as you would not be able to rely on correspondence to prove your case. A psychologist or psychiatrist MIGHT be able to draw conclusions from those things and render a professional opinion. But...that opinion would be contradicted by the professional opinion of your spouse's hired gun, and then it is a matter of whom the Court would believe as most credible. Even then, there is no guarantee.

For a complete legal analysis of the burden of proof for an annulment, I strongly urge you to seek advice from an attorney who specializes in family law and dissolution. The foregoing is just off the top of my head, and should NOT IN ANY WAY be relied upon. But do expect the process to be costly...upon THAT you CAN rely.

I wish I did a Vegas wedding, too!! Instead, I tried to fill a seemingless bottomless pit, and my spouse DEFINITELY has some serious psychological issues!! Total Narcissistic Personality Disorder...that totally consumed me. And all for nothing. When the source of narcissistic substance declined and she was in a position to have to contribute back to the relationship, rather than participate, she went with only her pride intact and it was off to someone else to feed off of. That was 6 months ago, and now the people who took her in are asking the same questions I asked: OK...what are you going to do to help yourself? TOTALLY unwilling to accept responsibility for her own actions, and is in to blaming everything on everybody else.

Sorry...I digressed in order to vent a little bit!!! But the most streamlined course would be regular dissolution. It takes 6 months + 1 day in California...from the date of service of process. With a marriage of such a short duration, it is unlikely that your support obligations would be that great, if anything at all. At the same time, since the AOS/green card has not gone through, you can DISAVOW your agreement. There is a thread on that, and a few 'key words' to insert in the letter to Homeland Security...be sure to write to EVERY office that ever handled your paperwork, where you sent it initially, where you got the NOA, where you did the interview...all those places. Up to and until the green card is approved, you may disavow your affidavit and effectively put an end to what would otherwise be 10 years of exposure!

BE CAREFUL OF CLAIMS OF ABUSE!!!!! There are threads here about how immigrants go crying to authorities about being the victim of an abusive US Citizen spouse!! If that happens, they can self-apply for adjustment of status, regardless of the affidavit of support, regardless of the K-1 status, regardless of ANYTHING! And they don't need to show much to gain that right. So, be careful!!!!!

Again, I would urge you to seek advice of counsel as soon as possible. Once you file for dissolution, you are no longer on the hook for the debts and obligations of your soon to be ex spouse. But from what I gather, I think that annulment based on fraud would be a VERY difficult case. An immigration and/or family lawyer would know best.

[LaL 418]

Tito/DM - with the AOS pending, isn't there a possibility of withdrawing the Affidavit of Support?

[chispas 0]

we've been married just a few months. i WISH we had gone to vegas to get married! thats a shame. Anyway, does anyone know what you need to prove an unsound mind? I do think he has serious mental issues. If I could convince him to see a doctor, get antidepressants, etc? Could that be enough? Could my witnesses and emails describing all that he has done to me, be enough?

PS. Our AOS has not been approved yet.

Again...the burden of proof to show unsound mind as a basis for annulment is quite substantial. In addition to witnesses (who could only testify as to what they heard, saw, experienced, and so on, but NOT what it meant, or to any medical or psychological conclusion because they are not health care professionals, nor would their observations be admissible to prove the fact you are trying to establish because it would be HEARSAY), and correspondence (which, by themselves, would not be admissible because it would be considered HEARSAY to use them to prove the legal conclusion you are trying to make), you would need expert testimony...it would take at least a year, and about $50,000 in fees when all was said and done. AT LEAST $50,000. You would not be able to rely on statements of witnesses just as you would not be able to rely on correspondence to prove your case. A psychologist or psychiatrist MIGHT be able to draw conclusions from those things and render a professional opinion. But...that opinion would be contradicted by the professional opinion of your spouse's hired gun, and then it is a matter of whom the Court would believe as most credible. Even then, there is no guarantee.

For a complete legal analysis of the burden of proof for an annulment, I strongly urge you to seek advice from an attorney who specializes in family law and dissolution. The foregoing is just off the top of my head, and should NOT IN ANY WAY be relied upon. But do expect the process to be costly...upon THAT you CAN rely.

I wish I did a Vegas wedding, too!! Instead, I tried to fill a seemingless bottomless pit, and my spouse DEFINITELY has some serious psychological issues!! Total Narcissistic Personality Disorder...that totally consumed me. And all for nothing. When the source of narcissistic substance declined and she was in a position to have to contribute back to the relationship, rather than participate, she went with only her pride intact and it was off to someone else to feed off of. That was 6 months ago, and now the people who took her in are asking the same questions I asked: OK...what are you going to do to help yourself? TOTALLY unwilling to accept responsibility for her own actions, and is in to blaming everything on everybody else.

Sorry...I digressed in order to vent a little bit!!! But the most streamlined course would be regular dissolution. It takes 6 months + 1 day in California...from the date of service of process. With a marriage of such a short duration, it is unlikely that your support obligations would be that great, if anything at all. At the same time, since the AOS/green card has not gone through, you can DISAVOW your agreement. There is a thread on that, and a few 'key words' to insert in the letter to Homeland Security...be sure to write to EVERY office that ever handled your paperwork, where you sent it initially, where you got the NOA, where you did the interview...all those places. Up to and until the green card is approved, you may disavow your affidavit and effectively put an end to what would otherwise be 10 years of exposure!

BE CAREFUL OF CLAIMS OF ABUSE!!!!! There are threads here about how immigrants go crying to authorities about being the victim of an abusive US Citizen spouse!! If that happens, they can self-apply for adjustment of status, regardless of the affidavit of support, regardless of the K-1 status, regardless of ANYTHING! And they don't need to show much to gain that right. So, be careful!!!!!

Again, I would urge you to seek advice of counsel as soon as possible. Once you file for dissolution, you are no longer on the hook for the debts and obligations of your soon to be ex spouse. But from what I gather, I think that annulment based on fraud would be a VERY difficult case. An immigration and/or family lawyer would know best.

Right again Tito. Maybe one nalga can be saved. Not even a 5150 or suggestion of mandatory internment helped me. There was an advocate there to help him out to show him the ropes and I had nothing.

[chispas 0]

I went to speak to "We The People" today

Who are the "We the People"? I know the textbook, but not the group.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

And if you lived together legitimately as husband and wife, and shared a bed for as little as one night mutually as a couple, then there is no basis for fraud

Not at all true. What is true is that if a plaintiff shares a bed after claiming that the marriage should be annuled for reasons such as fraud, then there is no basis for a claim. BIG DIFFERENCE! Anything can have occured prior to the individual having made the determination that there was deceit.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

Tito/DM - with the AOS pending, isn't there a possibility of withdrawing the Affidavit of Support?

Yes, of course. The petitioner can request that the Affidavit be withdrawn anytime prior to adjudication for whatever reason, be it that the sun is shining, they woke up and realised they didn't want to do this, etc. After adjudication (after the status has been conferred), then the request to withdraw the Affidavit would have to be on the basis that there was some sort of misrepresentation or fraudulent intent.

[Dan J 277]

I went to speak to "We The People" today

Who are the "We the People"? I know the textbook, but not the group.

Its a company that does document preparation services.

http://www.wethepeopleusa.com/

[tito 1]

"Not at all true. What is true is that if a plaintiff shares a bed after claiming that the marriage should be annuled for reasons such as fraud, then there is no basis for a claim. BIG DIFFERENCE! Anything can have occured prior to the individual having made the determination that there was deceit."

Sorry...that's not correct. All that the party being accused of deceit really needs to show as a threshold issue is that there were marital relations at some point in time. That's my understanding of the issue under California law, anyway. It's not a huge burden. If the parties lived in separate rooms and never slept together, that's a different story. But as long as they're BOTH holding themselves out as a married couple and living as such, it's extremely difficult to annul the marriage. One would have to show that the marital relations were a sham, and NATURALLY the immigrant isn't going to agree that was the case! If, the day after the wedding, irreconcileable differences arose that led to a separation, the legality and legitimacy of the marriage is still presumed...and ALL presumptions exist in favor of upholding the validity of the marriage. That is why the burden is so difficult to overcome.

Yes, the declaration of support can be disavowed, as I stated: "Up to and until the green card is approved, you may disavow your affidavit and effectively put an end to what would otherwise be 10 years of exposure!"

The immigrants will know EXACTLY how to pull the strings and work the ropes...they will be well-coached and they just couldn't bear to lose out on the opportunity to get a green card. So you better believe it will be a bitter battle.