alicia98981

The State Dept is NOT at fault...a visa decision is not preordained....but when certain demographic applicants sbow up, whose prior behavior with tourist visas have been questionable at best, and whose stories for returning are the same, well, what are the COs supposed to do? Believe everyone just because some American bf thinks his pedigree means something? Refuse everyone because of historic abuse of visas? Or, interview everyone, ignore promises of compliance by everyone, and make their best judgment? I think the latter is what is currently true by and large. If there were not so many visa cheats and 'mind changers', perhaps more folks could get a tourist visa.

I didn't say that. I said the State Department has preconceived notions based on a certain demographic or profile. The law states that everyone much be treated with immigrant intent to prove other wise. It is up to each individual to convince and change the mind of the CO that that is not the case. Maybe you have't heard of the stories of wealthy business men denied B1 visas for failure to establish strong ties who then set up their businesses in Canada or else where. If you scour these forums, you will find similar stories with similar questions and backgrounds. One was denied, the other approved. The law says that the decision is premade based on immigrant intent until that individual an convince the CO otherwise of your intentions, regardless of what your real intentions are deep down in the bottom of your heart. You essentially answered your questions.

See this consular officers's statement for example: http://tribune.com.pk/story/563982/tips-on-getting-a-us-visa/

She says

"After a brief interview, the visa officer makes a decision about the applicant’s eligibility and explains it to the applicant. Unfortunately, not all applicants are eligible for visas, a fact driven by immigration law, not the officer’s personal opinion".

Not true according to

• 9 FAM 41.31 N2.3 Mere Suspicion Not a Reason for Refusal (CT:VISA-1034; 09-24-2008) Suspicion that an alien, after admission, may be swayed to remain in the United States because of more favorable living conditions is not a sufficient ground to refuse a visa as long as the alien’s current intent is to return to a foreign residence.

• 9 FAM 41.31 N3.1 Period of Time in United States
  Consistent with Purpose of Trip (CT:VISA-701; 02-15-2005)The applicant must establish with reasonable certainty that departure from the United States will take place upon completion of the temporary visit. . . provided that you are satisfied that the intended stay actually has a time limitation and is not indefinite in nature.

So the CO determines the acceptable time frame to whatever the nature of the trip is, is how I interpret this.

• 9 FAM 41.31 N2 RESIDENCE ABROAD 9 FAM 41.31 N2.1 “Residence” Defined (CT:VISA-1365; 10-29-2009) The term “residence” is defined in INA 101(a)(33) as the place of general abode; the place of general abode of a person means his principal, actual dwelling place in fact, without regard to intent. This does not mean that an alien must maintain an independent household in order to qualify as an alien who has a residence in a foreign country and has no intention of abandoning. If the alien customarily resides in the household of another, that household is the residence in fact.

• 9 FAM 41.31 N4.1 Unlawful Activity While in Visitor
  Status (CT:VISA-1753; 10-21-2011)The law contemplates that an alien is traveling to the United States for legal purposes. Therefore, an application for a visitor visa must be denied in those cases where you have reason to believe or know that, while in the United States as a visitor, the applicant will engage in unlawful or criminal activities.

• 9 FAM 41.31 N4.2 Adequate Funds to Avoid Unlawful Employment (CT:VISA-701; 02-15-2005) The arrangements which the applicant has made for defraying the expenses of his or her visit and return abroad must be adequate in order to prevent their obtaining unlawful employment in the United States.

And finally,

• FAM 41.31 N5 IMPORTANCE OF FACILITATING
  INTERNATIONAL TRAVEL You must be satisfied that the applicants have overcome the presumption of intending immigration.

That alone speaks volumes.

• 9 FAM 41.31 N3.2 Specific and Realistic Plans (CT:VISA-701; 02-15-2005) The applicant must have specific and realistic plans for the entire period of the contemplated visit.

And honestly a lot of ones I have seen are kinda vague: I want to visit (insert family member), I want to see this city, I'm having a baby ( although I don't know how much more plan than that you can get).

So I don't know how else you want to spin. That's my interpretation of the law how I read it, and based on what com mentors have stated as their own personal experiences, the law gives premeditated decisions that must be overturned by a CO.

9 FAM 41.31 N2.3 Mere Suspicion Not a Reason for Refusal

(CT:VISA-1034; 09-24-2008)

Suspicion that an alien, after admission, may be swayed to remain in the United States because of more favorable living conditions is not a sufficient ground to refuse a visa as long as the alien’s current intent is to return to a foreign residence.

Personally I think this is a form of discrimination on the State Department's part. I understand that it is automatically assumed that every B-2 applicant has immigrant intent. But if that's the case, I don't understand why the US allows certain people to apply to begin with. Sounds like a "we collect a fee to tell you we made a decision of 'No' before we even saw you, this interview is just a formality". Essentially there should be further guidelines as to what the requirements to apply are for certain countries as there are with European nations such as how much minimum finances you have, catergories of jobs and length of time being employed, etc. Each case is unique and individual and shouldn't be compared to every one else's. I read a story of a spouse who was filing for his mother in law to assist him with his first child after the daughter of said MIL end up in critical condition from complications with child birth. And of course, the MIL was denied for not having strong enough ties to home country despite having a job (though low paying), years with that job, a bank account, and home. How do you define someone's intent based on opinion? If having an itinerary, round trip tickets, a home, and a steady job aren't enough to prove intent, what is? If you're almost certain to be denied for not having strong ties as defined by CO who will by the way tell you strong ties vary from country (i.e the opinion of the CO), then essentially the State Department is collecting donations off people's desire to legitimately visit family and friends - of those trying to do things the legal and right way. Of course this is the fault of people who abuse the visa system but then again, how is there anyone to abuse the system in the majority of visas are denied anyway? So the question is, why is there a definitive answer as to what strong ties are if it is up to the CO to determine what those are as a strong reasoning for the CO may not be the same for another individual? For example, my whole life is in the Philipines regardless of how I live it, but if I'd like visit a family member in the US at that USC's invitation, I'm going over to the US with the intention of never returning to the Philipines according to the CO. Confused how this logic is determined before arriving for the interview, and without ever looking at documental proof.

Sorry just needed to vent some frustration at our "American Paranoia" . . . .

If that's the case you should take down the other two as well as they were personal attacks that contributed nothing to the conversation or discussion.

Ask your county officials on how long the actual process takes because after the judge signs your certificate, they just have to record and finalize it and mail it out. Depends on how big your county is and how many people get married there.

I130 documents don't have to be original. We didn't send anything original, all photocopies or certified true copies. The originals you save for the interview. If you're planning to multitask and if you're the one prepping the paperwork anyways, you might not even need the entire maxmum 6 months (assuming that's what he's given at POE) plus an extension. He just needs his signature for the G325a, proof of relationship, birth certificate... pretty much all he needs.

Thanks! That's good information and great advice! I honestly assume that wehad to use original documents!

I have a question for the OP. If he is stating as a tie to Morocco that he is reluctant to leave his Mother alone for too long, will he be willing or able to leave her behind permanently, once you successful get the Visa you decide on?

He has asked before if I were willing to move to Morocco instead because we knew up front immigration would be difficult. However with my military commitments and the fact that I have several more years on mu contract makes that difficult. We wanted to do the B-2 so that he could make periodically return trips back and forth since I have flight benefits and he could stay in Morocco to assist his mother as she relies on him for paying the bills, assisting with business transactions etc. His father left the homes he owns to his mother and his eldest brother has taken the home his father left to him. Therefore his mother has agreed to place the homes in his name on hopes that we can use this prove to the CO his commitment to return to Morocco, even though the guidelines above state he doesn't need to own a residence to establish residence in his country which if brought up he will in turn explain to the CO the reasoning behind this. When he gets to the US, the quickest way to guarenteed work is joint the military. We have already contacted a recruiter who has stared as long as we marry and he can legally work in the US, he can join plus Imad has the added benefit of speaking 5 languages, one of which is critical to the needs of US Military. The hope and desire is we can make periodical trips back and forth to Morocco to ensure his mother his taken care of as well as send money home. When his younger brother becomes legal, he will assume guardianship of the minor sister - his other reason for not wanting to be away too long.

If they discover that upon entry your fiance has a bunch of items that would enable him to apply for an AOS, they can deny him entry as the CBP may feel he has immigrant intent. Even with a visitor visa etc... The final call is the CBP's. They have even denied K1 visa holders because they believe they're already married, even if they had a ceremony that wasn't legally binding. It's something to be very careful of, because you should also never lie to the CBP, it will come back to bite you.

Exactly. That's why I want to enter with through the POE and hope that we have enough documentation to prove our intentions when he arrives. . .

I would take approval rates from the embassy's websites with a grain of salt. It said that ours has a 75% acceptance rate and I seriously doubt that it's that high.

He really doesn't need to be in the US for the filing of the petition. That was our plan too but with the K1 visa. Didn't happen and I don't think it makes a difference to USCIS whether both petitioner and beneficiary are in the same location when the petition was filed.

I went to the US on a tourist visa, unexpectedly got knocked up (was told by my doc that I'm infertile) and we got married. I had to fly back to my country before we gathered all the documents needed. I just prepared what I had to prepare from home, put it on our Dropbox and he printed it out, collated it and sent it in. I gave very specific instructions as to the sequence of documents and each part had labels and page numbers. Even a 1st grader could've done it.

I don't know how long it takes for a marriage license where you are but it took us 1 day to apply for a license AND get married. The certificate arrived by mail in 2 days. Granted it was a non-traditional wedding. We just walked to the court house and did it. My family is traditional too but they know that we'll be having a more appropriate wedding in the future. Our highest priority is to minimize the time apart once the baby gets here.

From what I gather with the state I live in, it will take roughly 6-8 weeks to recieve the marriage certificate, but this is unconfirmed. We picked a Central American honeymoon based on the location of where I live so having the B-2 would be in our favor. However, the K-1 seems to be for right now a more likely way of marrying in the US. Since documents have to be original anyway. We figured he just bring them with him. The hope was with the B-2 was that we could complete the 8 week marriage counseling, simultaneously plan a wedding, honeymoon, while I file the documents for the CR-1, he returns home to complete the interview process, and showing his brothers how to take over the household, and wait for me to return from my deployment, IF the orders go through. If I ended up having to deploy, we were hoping all of this could be taken care of while I was deployed essentially knocking out two birds with one stone as far as the periods of seperation. He he has to return home anyway whether I deploy or not and we'd hate for him to be barred from coming permanently when the time comes because he over stayed. As said before, B-2 will definitely be risky which is why we are also thinking we may have to go back to the K1 route to prevent being denied on the assumption that he will overstay his visit. It's not ideal, but it may be the only option we have.

A tourist visa denial is unlikely to have negative consequences on the K1. Tourist visas get denied because of believed immigrant intent - K1s are for exactly that purpose.

This is the reason we decided a few days ago to chance it with the B-2 visa:

I agree with the others who said the odd of getting a B1 is almost slim to none of a chance. It's rare that people from Morocco who applies for a visitor visa will get approved even if they get the support from the host family. People who have gotten tourist visas to come to America must have an extraordinary connection to America.

I would guess families of "royalty" or government connection or someone who is so established like owning their own business like Venezia Ice. But sending a son over for a visit would not be a viable reason when it's an applicant coming from Morocco. Sad to say. It's just that scrutinized and biased.

Why can't you get married in Morocco and then go the CR1 route? That would be the most logical way if you really want to be married as husband and wife before being deployed.

we want to marry in the US so that my family can be there, my dad can perform the ceremony since he is a minister, and because my dad is traditional and wants to meet him before we marry - essentially my dad wants him to ask permission. Not to mention with this possible deployment coming up, I rather he have already have met my family, us to be already married, and him waiting in a place he's familar with such as morocco while waiting for the cr1 to pass. During that time if I am deployed, at least he can spend that time waiting in moroccoand we can start our marriage after I return. Neither of us like the idea of him spending his first few months alone in foreign country without me while I'm deployed.

I think sometimes in these immigration situations people tend to forget that these are life changing family events and some people are so focused on actually being married and being together that they forget that. I'm not going to marry someone who has not met my family that's just silly. I really hope we can at least be given a chance instead of really being at the mercy and whims of someone's preconceived opinion . . .

Not all premarital counselling is 8 weeks long. I know people who only did maybe 4 sessions in the period of 2 weeks. For your church it may be that way however, which would eat up a great deal of his stay obviously (and also most of your 90 days for a K1...) Also there are many states where you can get the marriage certificate same day, double check on your state/county. You may just need to shift the wedding to another county to make it quicker.

Anyhow the point is, with Morocco as the country of origin, the chances of a B2 is VERY slim. You can try but don't get your hopes up. Also never lie to the consular officer, this leads to misrepresentation and a lifetime ban which obviously isn't the route you're wanting to go.

Best of luck to you.

you're right, probably best to stick with the K1 instead of trying to find loopholes . . .

If you have no intent to immigrate, why do you need a B2 for six months AND an extension? Plenty, in fact most, couples make sure their documents are in order even if they're not physically together. Sounds fishy.

He'll probably get denied anyway, being from a high fraud country and all. Better is K-1. They're not stupid, if you lie about your intentions they WILL find out. There is little to no "mercy" with immigration processe.

Actually, forget the K-1, I'd go for CR1 right now.

I'm guessing in your self righteous attempt to be negative you miss the part about extending to wait for all paperwork to be finished in the US? The premarital counseling is 8 weeks long. It takes weeks to get a marriage certificate which we need before we can start the I130. Why should he spend those weeks waiting the majority of the months it will take to finish the cr1 in morocco when he can finish out his b2 here and go back and wait the last portion of it? Why not file the documents here together eliminating time and costs to gather them? This is only an alternative I was asking for advice on, not a bash session. I asked for for advice, not ugly attitudes . .

No, I think it's fine. There was a correction to a respondent who seemed to have wires crossed, but I think everyone knows that your intent is not to immigrate on the tourist visa.

However, as I and others said, obtaining the B2 - even with some evidence that you're only going to marry and then return to Morocco to do the immigration processing paperwork - may be nigh on impossible.

Your fiancé can obviously go ahead and try and get the B2, but it wouldn't be a surprise to see that be denied with an American fiancée + marriage plans in action.

You might want to revise your plan so it doesn't rely on obtaining the B2 in order to do the meet-and-greet, premarital counselling etc., incase that doesn't pan out.

Remember, the K1 path gives you 89 days in the USA together before you absolutely must be married (assuming you married on the last possible day - the 90th), so you would have almost 3 months in which to do meeting and counselling and get actually married. You can get wedding planning done, to a degree, before you are reunited in the USA, but there are many many couples on VJ who follow the K1 path and manage to get all the meeting and planning and marrying done in that 90 day window just fine.

Alternatively, you find a way to do those things whilst in Morocco and marry there, then begin the I-130 for CR-1 process.

hmmmm, I agree. We were thinking that if the B2 Plan didn't work, we could still go with our original for the K1 instead. I read on the state department website their is a 21% chance of him as a residentof morocco getting denied, so we're kinda hoping for that route to work first. The real question is do we be completely honest about our marriage plans or do we we just stick with the visiting route? I was kinda hoping that sheer honesty and demonstrating a complete understanding of what our options are would show us some mercy LOL. But we are definitely prepared for the K1 route worst case scenario.

We're all agreed that marrying in the US on a B2 visa is legal but acquiring that B2 visa with prior intent to marry (and immigrate) will be extremely difficult.

well again our intent is not to immigrate on a b2 but rather meet family, complete premarital counseling, and then return to morocco to start the immigration process. I don't want to confuse anyone coming to the thread with new information.

No matter what was said to you, it is illegal to travel to the US on a tourist visa with the intent to marry and adjust status. There is no gray area

no one said anything about coming with intent to change status . . .

Been searching this blog for hours each day, so maybe one of you guys could help. Smart @ss remarks not appreciated. My fiance and I met almost 2 years ago on a work trip to Morocco. After several visits there, he proposed to me about a year and a half later. Because I am in the military and pending a possible deployment, we'd like to marry soon. With that being said, we'd like to apply for a B2 visa to allow him to visit long enough to do the 8 weeks of marriage counseling, meet my family, all while simultaneoulsy planning a wedding. My finance has also determined that he wants join the US military as soon as possible. Given that he wants to join the Air Force and he is coming up on his 27th birthday, time is critical. Is it possible to apply and have the B2 extended pass 6 months long enough to wait for the marriage certificate and then apply for the CR1 visa which will require him to return to Morocco for the interview? We figure that this is a better option than the K1 visa which would force us to complete everything in 3 months.

Here is background informaition if this helps:

• Met April 2012
• 4 vistits between 2012 - 2013, the longest being a month long stay between Sept - Oct 2013
• Engaged Oct 2013
• Planning to file B2 mid January
• Wedding date based on US government
• We have over 300 pictures of my visits that include me with his family and him, including Moroccan holidays
• Almost 2 years worth of daily Facebook, Skype, and Google Hangouts chats
• Plane ticket stubs
• I will file proof of support
• I will send a letter of invitation with copies of my passport, copies of the stamps, and my military ID
• A copy of the letter addressing our enrollment in premarital counseling
• A tentative travel itinerary
• Essentially any proof that I will support his visit
• He is in the proccess of getting the two homes his family owns in his name
• He does have a bank account
• He is self employed, but does have work history
• He is currently the head of household at his mother's house

Our biggest fear of course is denial. My fear is that he will be grilled excessively hard to prove his ties to Morocco. We have been practicing interview questions and I have made it clear to be totally and completely be honest about our intent to marry during the B2 visit after the the completion of marriage course but his desire to return to Morocco after the marriage to complete the CR1 interview. We don't know how to make it as clear as possible that we want to do everything legally, such as not filing for the AOS on the B2 but rather he return home first so that he can return with Conditional Status. Plus the added benefit that it is much cheaper than to do the orignal route of the K1 as we were previously prepping our paperwork for. Essentially what I'm asking is, is it possible to apply for the B2 for 6 months, marrying during the six months, apply for an extention of the B2 to ensure we have all documents prepared for our I130, apply for the CR1 while he is still in the US and then apply for advance parole to leave the country long enough to do his CR1 interview in Casablanca and wait for the results (or return based on the conditions of his advanced parole, leaving to return to Morocco if he has to)? We know that it will difficult for him to return on B2 with a CR1 pending if he can't convince customs that he will return to Morocco without over staying, but unlike the K visas, this gives us more time to plan and prepare for the wedding and spend time together. Any suggestions, tips, and advice greatly appreciated.