Bosco

All the gay Muslims I know or know of were born into Islam. If there are some that are reverts, Well, that would be different.

Why would it be different?

i'd guess that it might be that they were born a muslim in one case, but in the other they had realized their orientation before they reverted?

I don't see the relevance.

All the gay Muslims I know or know of were born into Islam. If there are some that are reverts, Well, that would be different.

Why would it be different?

Gay People are link Anyone Else

Most Muslims believe that homosexual acts are a sin. Many believe that simply the fact of being gay is a sin. I disagree. The Qur’an, like the Bible, has passages about the people of Sodom. Two things are apparent from the story. First, it is a story of intended rape – the men who come forth from Sodom intend to have their way with Lot’s guests regardless of whether they want to or not.

But more than that, it is a story of a town where orientation has been turned on its head. Men who are naturally heterosexual have abandoned their wives in favor of fulfilling their desires with men. Much as men in Afghanistan commonly take young male lovers as a sign of status -- whether or not either or both of them are heterosexual -- so too the people of Lot had wholesale abandoned their natural proclivities.

That, I can see, is a perversion of nature. It says nothing, however, about men who do not have those proclivities to begin with.

... read the full article at the link above

A gay convert Muslim leader:

A Man for All Seasons

Imam Daayiee Abdullah offers a gay Muslim's insights for the holidays

Interview by Will O'Bryan email

Photography by Todd Franson email

Published on 12/21/2006

This time last year -- as in other years past -- there was a holiday-season ''smackdown.'' Once again, voices on the right warned of the ''War on Christmas.'' From Bill O'Reilly to the American Family Association, these culture warriors bemoaned the absence of the phrase ''Merry Christmas.'' Less specific seasonal greetings left them cold.

Into the fray marched an unexpected voice: Imam Daayiee Abdullah, an openly gay Muslim from Washington, D.C. As a member of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Religious Leadership Roundtable, Abdullah penned a column that ran nationally in The Advocate, which was disseminated widely.

''Perhaps if the leaders of the religious right had the true Christmas spirit in their hearts, they would avoid insulting friends and fellow citizens with their insistence on public dogmatism, and spread some peace on earth and good will to all people,'' he concluded.

Imam Daayiee Abdullah

This year, with the Christmas battlefield relatively quiet, a cheerful Abdullah took time from his day-to-day life of running his own foreign-language software company to speak with Metro Weekly. With an educational background in Chinese and Arabic languages, Middle Eastern studies, the Koran and law; extended periods of time spent in Beijing, Cairo, Damascus, Taipei, among other global spots; and decades of activism in the gay community, including moderation of an Internet group for gay Muslim men, there turned out to be quite a lot to talk about.

METRO WEEKLY: Were you raised a Muslim or did you convert to Islam?

IMAM DAAYIEE ABDULLAH: I was born to a Southern Baptist family. But my parents encouraged me. They always said one needs a religion, because we as human beings at some time in our lives need to call on something greater than ourselves. What you call it is not as important as having the connection, the spiritual liaison, so that you can survive the struggles in our lives.

As a child, 8 or 9 years old, I'd been to synagogue, Hindu temple, and a variety of different Christian denominations. I got exposed to a lot of things. My parents were very much about education, so we were exposed to the world outside. We traveled every summer, things like that, so we got to see what the world was really like. Then we could choose what we wanted to become in it.

MW: Were you raised in a large family?

ABDULLAH: Yes, I have six brothers and a sister who is the youngest, and then I have a half-sister who is the eldest from my father's first marriage.

MW: Did you grow up in the D.C. area?

ABDULLAH: No, Detroit. I came here in 1978 for a conference. I was working for Gov. Jerry Brown's (D-Calif.) office in San Francisco at the time. Then in 1979, I came for the [National March on Washington for Lesbian and Gay Rights]. I was one of the San Francisco coordinators, so I got here about a week beforehand and I had a chance to go out a little bit. After the march, I had another week of vacation so I stayed. And I said, ''Well, this is my Mecca.'' I went back to [san Francisco] and two weeks later I decided I was going to move to D.C. About a month later, I was living here.

MW: When did you find your spiritual home, Islam?

ABDULLAH: While I was doing my tenure at Beijing University in the early '80s, studying Chinese language and literature. Some of my classmates were Chinese Muslims from the Ürümqi area in far-western China. Through our conversations, study times, visits and dinners together, they asked me if I knew anything about Islam. I told them I had, in terms of what the Saudis had been teaching, but also the Nation of Islam. And they said, ''No, no, no -- real Islam.'' It piqued my interest. They invited me to go to the Beijing Mosque. That sparked my initial interest.

MW: When these fellow students spoke of ''real Islam,'' were they talking about sects, like Sunni or Shia?

ABDULLAH: They never spoke in terms of a particular sect. [Their families] had been Muslim for over 1,100 years, by the trade that had extended itself through the Silk Route. That's how Islam entered into China. That's how they became Muslim. I would presume that they had a high Shia influence, but not necessarily so. It may have been a mixture of both. Those caravans were carrying people and their goods from all over the area.

MW: Looking at the differences of Shia and Sunni, is that just the surface? Is there far more differentiation, interpretation of Islam?

ABDULLAH: There are a lot of [controversies], but they came over time -- particularly after the death of the Prophet. Afterwards, there was a group of men who came together as a council, so to speak. They chose among them a person who should lead them. When that happens, you're always talking politics. After the Prophet's death, everything became politics, because you have various tribes who are competing, and things of this nature. It's like political parties.

Almost 20 years after the Prophet's death, the issue of the Shia and Sunni schism sort of developed. So as the Prophet died, different things began filtering through. That started the historical schisms that separated the different groups. Just like in Christianity, you know? It's people being human.

MW: When did people start calling you ''Imam''?

ABDULLAH: I can't really say when that started. I presume it would have been sometime in 2000. When I joined [the online group, Muslim Gay Men], there were [online] discussions and some of the people who came in claimed that they were gay, but their purpose was to try to change people, versus understanding people for who they are. They would resort to ''ancient scholar so-and-so who such-and-such.'' I would always challenge them because our belief is Koran first, then Sunna [the Hadith] of the Prophet. If we don't find anything there, we go to what they refer to as the Sahaba [companions of Muhammad]. There's nothing in the Koran that speaks against homosexuality. The Lut [a.k.a. Lot] story speaks about heterosexual men who use homosexual sexual acts as a form of punishment. When you read it literally, it says, ''men who turn away from their wives or mates.'' Gay [men] don't tend to have [female] mates unless it's a cultural situation they're forced into, by family or culture. During this same time, they had something they refer to as the mukhannathun -- something like the hijras in India, sort of a male-female, cross-dressing types. They existed. And they also lived or worked in the household of the Prophet. Aisha, one of the Prophet's wives, indicated that there were men who worked in the household. They were mukhannathun. That generally meant that they were not necessarily castrated, but not having an interest in women. If the Prophet had mukhannathun in his household who served him and his wives, it seems that he wouldn't have had an aversion to these people.

As a religious leader -- knowing that he was a religious leader -- I'm certain that if he had something to say about it, he would have. But as a religious leader and as a governmental leader, he never had a legal case that dealt with homosexuality. There are several Islamic legal scholars who supported that point. So if it's not something he did, those Haddith -- or stories about the Prophet -- that came out later are fabrications.

MW: That would seem similar to Christianity, in that Jesus never seemed to say anything about homosexuality.

ABDULLAH: It's similar to Christianity in that it's a political move in order to maintain control over peoples' lives. People like to nitpick to take the issue away from the real problems of how individuals live their lives in the peaceful way their particular book calls for. That's what the issue really comes down to.

Imam Daayiee Abdullah

MW: When did you come to terms with your own sexual orientation?

ABDULLAH: I told my parents when I was 15. The way it worked in my household, when you graduated from high school, you were your own person. You started making decisions for yourself. I went to summer school every year, so at 15 I finished high school and went off to college. And at 15 I told my parents I knew that I was gay.

MW: What was the reaction from your family when you came out?

ABDULLAH: There really wasn't a major shock per se. They asked the typical questions of the '70s: ''Are you sure? Is it something I did?'' I told them it was nothing they had done. I had known this for quite a period of time and that through my soul searching, as well as research, I felt there was nothing wrong with me. I loved men, and had since I was a young kid. When I was about 5 years old I knew there was something uniquely special about men.

MW: Did that sense of courage, of confidence, come from your parents?

ABDULLAH: Of course. My parents always told us to let them know first -- that way, they would support us. But if we were to lie about things, then we couldn't expect support. When we were very young, my father and mother had a rule for us: ''If you want to act like a criminal, we'll treat you like one.'' So if you did something you weren't supposed to do, all your stuff was taken away -- your toys, your privileges, all of that -- and we learned very quickly that society is not going to put up with that. Also, my mother used to tell us ''I'm queen of this household. Your father is king and you are all young princes. And one day you'll rule your own kingdom. So you must learn the proper rules of etiquette and behavior.'' Both of my parents are deceased now, but it's something that definitely makes me see that I had very good parents.

MW: The gay Muslim community, looking for religious leadership, does not have many people to turn to.

ABDULLAH: I agree.

MW: Is that why you became the imam, because you were giving advice to gay Muslims?

ABDULLAH: There were some gay Muslims who had died from AIDS and no one would do their Janâzah, their funeral prayer. Stepping forward to do those things put me in that position, rather than me seeking that position.

MW: You performed funeral services?

ABDULLAH: For one gay male who had died of AIDS-related illness. Then I did same-sex marriages, both for women and men. Then counseling for Muslim men and women who have had problems with their families.

MW: You have performed wedding ceremonies for two Muslims of the same sex?

ABDULLAH: Yes, I have. And mixed marriages as well -- both gay and straight. I've married Muslim and Jewish, and Muslim and Christian. I have a particular belief that since we're all sister religions, we're all part of the Abrahamic faith, that within the Koran itself it says that we can interact with each other, marry with each other. But because of the way some people have read the Koran and interpreted it, they have misconstrued information within the Koran because they are not [considering] when certain things came about.

When the revelations came, it was on a timeline. But the Koran is more by categories, if you will, or subject matter. So things that may have happened over the 22 years [of Mohammed's revelations] are somewhat accumulated together on certain subjects, so they confuse issues. [For example,] when Islam was developing, hatred was expressed towards them, some of the members were murdered, some were beaten. Their society was attacked, their economic stability was attacked, because people wouldn't patronize them. That's when the revelation came that you should fight back because these people's hearts are sealed. They are not going to ever change towards you. So fight back and protect yourselves.

When you pull this historical information together and when the Koran was finally compiled, you have all these things put in together. Now some people use the terms that some rules were abrogated. Others said there was never abrogation. So some of the rules, they don't know when they were used and when they were ended. And with other ones, they say it started here and ended here.

Part of the Koran's message says that it came to correct innovations that were made in the Judaic and Christian religions, so many of the stories are the same. But some of the facts and things around the edges aren't necessarily there or there's something slightly different.

The mainstream Islamic community uses [the destruction of Sodom story] to say that homosexuality is not a permissible form of sexual interaction. I believe that they are very incorrect about that because the Koran does speak allegorically and very clearly that sex is an important aspect of each human being's life, in that a man and a wife both have responsibilities and rights -- and rites -- involved in their sexual relationships.

The Koran does not say that same-sex individuals should not have loving relationships. In the allegory they say that you should have your ''protector and your cloak.'' Your protector being someone who provides for you -- be it your housing, your food or [physical protection]. And in your ''cloak,'' meaning there's someone who is your sexual intimate. Therefore, when it says that -- and not in terms of male and female, but in terms that people should have that -- that's the broader understanding.

If people were able to get their brains around that, it's a better understanding because God is not so specific. God is much bigger, because when God gives us something he gives us diversity. If you take a flower like a carnation, you have miniatures, standards and large, but they're all carnations. Why is it that God provides us diversity in it? Yet when it comes to human sexuality, there's only one thing. That goes against the very universal rulings of God, and there's only one thing that Allah says or God says to us: We should worship no one other than God. That's consistent throughout. Everything else is how people interpret it, and how God's mercy will be given to us.

MW: Then what is your understanding of God and homosexuality?

ABDULLAH: My understanding is that how we treat each other in our relationships is based upon the kind of person you are. How do you treat your mate? Are you cheating on them? Those types of things are very important. I think our problem in the gay community is that we've been so accustomed to having no regulations. Go to bars, have free sex -- it happened in San Francisco in the 70's, I know what people did. All those things were treating people sexually as objects.

We should never treat each other as objects, but yet that's part of the gay community. I think we'll be held accountable for that no matter what your faith or anything. As gay people, we'll be held accountable. Why did you treat that person as an object rather than a loving, caring individual? I think God judges us on how we interact with people. What is your intention in how you're dealing with people? If your intention is to ''have'' that person as a sexual object, then you've turned that human spirit into an item, an idol if you will, that's supposed to be lifeless and soulless.

MW: In a loving, same-sex relationship, sex is allowed then?

ABDULLAH: Yes. I believe so. Because the Koran says that we should have good sexual relationships.

MW: Do you have a partner?

ABDULLAH: Yes, of 10 years.

MW: Is he Muslim as well?

ABDULLAH: No, actually he is Christian. This is one reason why I do interfaith marriages. When God puts people together and they find love with each other, who am I to say it's not possible? If the two people can find love with each other, then why can't I support that?

Although I've done several same-sex marriages, I've done more [mixed-faith] heterosexual marriages. [These couples] would look for someone who thought outside the box -- the community is asking for this.

This takes us back to last year in the article. Why can't I say to my Jewish friends whom I've known for a number of years, ''Happy Holidays,'' and for them to know that I'm wishing them a happy Jewish holiday? And with my Christian friends, to be able to say to them, ''Happy Holidays''? And to my African friends, [celebrating] Kwanzaa and various other [holidays], I can say to them also ''Happy Holidays.'' And to my Muslim brothers as well.

A few years ago, all the holidays fell together right in that Thanksgiving-Christmas period. I found that was one of the most peaceful times here in the United States, because everybody was celebrating and not paying attention to whether they're better or we're better.

MW: You said you know of one other openly gay Imam in the world, in South Africa.

ABDULLAH: Yes, his name is Muhsin Hendricks.

MW: Do you confer with him?

ABDULLAH: Oh, yes. We're very good friends. I've been to South Africa. They had a conference two years ago and they invited me to speak. It was dealing with being gay and Muslim, and also how we find a sense of who we are. One of the problems that's always associated with the Muslim faith -- and sometimes mirrored in other faiths -- is that homosexuality is all based on sex, the sexual act. It's not based upon one's orientation. If you don't have sex, you can still have a gay orientation. So the issue is not really about sex. It's about how people interpret the way in which they are able to love another individual. That's one of the things I try to stress with parents, with other people who are non-gay but also Muslim.

MW: In America today, do you think it's easier to be gay or to be Muslim?

ABDULLAH: It's on the spectrum of different things. If you're not heterosexual, you're on the other side of the equation. When I was at Georgetown [university], there were people from all around the world. When South Africa was doing apartheid, I knew black South Africans and white South Africans. I would talk to both of them. But I also came to realize, too, that in the spectrum of things, some people would like me because I'm black, and some wouldn't. Some people like me, or not, because I'm gay.

Being a black man in white, gay society, I've grown greatly accustomed to this diversity, being the ''other.'' When I walk down P Street or Christopher Street or Castro Street, I'm that black man -- not necessarily ''my black gay brother.'' When they find out I'm Muslim, or that I'm a former lawyer, or that I like to play pinochle, or that I like pistachio ice cream, they may still not like me.

MW: And in the Muslim community?

ABDULLAH: Whenever I go to places for prayer, in most places I'm not harassed. People know who I am. I think that shows the quality of those Muslims in those particular centers. However, I have had others who wanted to attack me. I've told them, ''Be my guest if you want to do so, but I assure you I will go to the full extent of the law to have you put in jail or sent back to where you came from.'' Plain and simple. I've been the topic of discussion for years now, so it's not like it's something new.

MW: Do you have a holiday message for Metro Weekly readers?

ABDULLAH: Let us let go of our fear of each other and fill that space with happiness. Knowing someone different is a blessing. I would like for the gay community to better understand that it's going to improve its position by being more knowledgeable about other peoples' positions. In return, [the gay community] can ask that [others] become more knowledgeable about their position. Through that exchange, you find common ground.

I like this line from your post:

Because, after a while, you get real. That doesn't mean you don't miss each other, but the kids, the schedule, the demands of life build in practicality. I traveled alone lot during my first marriage, so did he. Life fills the spaces in your life, and you learn to cope.

I was married nearly 30 years. Just an observation based on experience that has nothing to do with levels of love, missing or anything else other than you just learn to deal with the absenses. You have to or you crumble. Crumbling in marriage is a bad thing.

If getting "real" means having to accept long absences of my husband, then I will never get "real". I miss sharing my day with him and just having his presence around. The funny thing is that everyone is still in shock that I am this way, including myself. I was totally independent and enjoyed my own time before I met my husband. I had even been in some relationships but still enjoyed A LOT of space. It is different now that I have met my soulmate (and I truly see Hicham as that). I feel we were separated for ALL of my life and I really don't want to have to spend any more time apart. That being said, it was me who pushed him to travel. One of the things I love about him the most is how he feels for his family. It has been a long time since he has seen them. Since his parents are no longer around, he needs to go back and see his younger siblings and make sure everything is going ok for them.

T,

Straying here, but I am so glad you have what you have with Hicham. I know how much you give of yourself in other realms of your life.

What do you all think of this lady? I'm curious about your opinions. The review implies that although she claims to have come to her opinions about Islam through logic, she may be very influenced by her personal experiences and there are many inconsistencies in her arguments.

In the fall of 2002, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, then a junior researcher for the social democratic party in the Netherlands, was invited to stand for election by the rival conservative party. She thought about it, and decided that if she were to enter politics, she would embark on a “holy mission” to have the statistics of female victims of so-called honor killings around the world officially registered. Honor killings are common in (but not unique to) Muslim societies, where the shame of adultery, or even rape, is such that for some men it can be wiped out only by murdering the women involved.

Hirsi Ali’s stated aim was commendable, even if her claim that this “is the largest, most important issue that our society and our planet will face in this century” is perhaps a trifle overblown. But her choice of words is curious. Why a “holy” mission? By her own account in “Infidel” she “had left God behind years ago.” Once a devout Muslim, she was now an atheist: “I was on a psychological mission to accept living without a God, which means accepting that I give my life its own meaning.” Hence the title of this fascinating account of her life.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/books/re...KbulrK6ICS/iIOw

Here's a story about Ayan Hirsi Ali from Beliefnet:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/212/story_21294_1.html

I feel she is trying to make a name for herself riding on the anti-Islam train.

Obviously she knew that, hence the joke she made.

I know me better than anyone on this site. I'm not worried about me, nor am I worried about pleasing any of you gossipy women. That's my position. Like it or lump it. I don't define myself by trips to this site, although I'm sure you'd be thrilled if I gave you that kind of power over me. Don't hold your breath!

So maybe you should stop trying to size up others by their visits?

Bosco and peezy both have their SOs here, so their frustration levels must be low. While they have every right to post here, this is what they spend time doing.

Oh scholar, thank you for letting me know my rights.

But since you want to talk about what people spend their time doing, one needs to look only at the join dates and number of posts

ETA: One also only needs to stroll over to OT to see this type of situation follows you wherever you go. Have to wonder when you will stop blaming the people around you and realize that maybe, just maybe, the problem is you?

Hell, yeah, they will continue, just like your EMPTY threats. Worried? No, I have no reason to be worried. Conspiacy theorist? No, we all have read the conspiracy admitted here on this thread. I've done nothing to expose you, you expose yourselves. Jean was right when she expressed disgust for what happens here. Doodle was right to question why someone would do to Private what was done. I'm right to stand up to people who so indignantly point their poisoned fingers at others. You think you're so in control, but you're not. You're merely posturing. You have nothing to back up your claims about me or anyone else, but what else are you going to say? What else can you say? Talking out of both sides of your mouths about wanting things to be good here, while claiming at the same time to be gathering "incriminating" evidence about people to try to shut them down is LOW. You say I've got a problem? Oh, honey, I don't stoop to that level, and never will.

You are hysterical The drama of it all. "think you're so in control", "try to shut them down", "I don't want to hear another word". This is funnier than the cloaks and cabal.

Things I read were not on B-net although someone pointed B-net out to me after that post thinking that is what I was referring to; it was not.

However, since B-net has been now mentioned by name, I suspect others will soon know what is being referred to.

How will others know?

Because now that the forum has been named, they can look it up themselves.

NOW?

It was named back in the thread when you associated her name with that site. If it was a mistake I don't know why you didn't correct yourself.

I feel bad that she's gone and I am kind of shocked that she didn't stick up for herself more. She didn't seem the type to back down that easy in the past.

When I associated her name with that site, I was unaware of those particular messages. Someone PM'ed me and sent me the link to those messages after reading my post.

Things I read were not on B-net although someone pointed B-net out to me after that post thinking that is what I was referring to; it was not.

However, since B-net has been now mentioned by name, I suspect others will soon know what is being referred to.

How will others know?

Because now that the forum has been named, they can look it up themselves.

Things I read were not on B-net although someone pointed B-net out to me after that post thinking that is what I was referring to; it was not.

However, since B-net has been now mentioned by name, I suspect others will soon know what is being referred to.

Ppl gave Private a hard time here because of the way she behaved. I'd be more sympathetic if ppl gave her shitt for nothing but they didn't.

I'd be more sympathetic if criticism of behavior was more consistant over all and not limited to those less liked.

Looking in the mirror?

I've said that many times, but as long as it keeps being thrown out that some favored folks leave because of unfavored others, it's fair game.

And Private has posted other reasons elsewhere. If JP posts or posted other reasons elsewhere, I would acknowledge them.

Your acknowledgment is not required.

Thanks for letting me know dear. Can you tell me what is not required while you are at it since you love to inform us all of the hows and whats?

Tell us again why people leave because of other people, Bosco. When I do the same, you object. Apparently, you claim some monopoly on the subject, dear.

I didn't object. I pointed out that she has stated other reasons elsewhere.

I've said that many times, but as long as it keeps being thrown out that some favored folks leave because of unfavored others, it's fair game.

And Private has posted other reasons elsewhere. If JP posts or posted other reasons elsewhere, I would acknowledge them.

Your acknowledgment is not required.

Thanks for letting me know dear. Can you tell me what is not required while you are at it since you love to inform us all of the hows and whats?

Maybe she left for both reasons.

I agree, which is why I stated in my first post "other reasons were involved". I think it is likely people here contributed, and in part the way GEG stated, but also because Private realized that some of the reasons she gave elsewhere had become common knowledge here.

Since I brought it up, I will clear it up. There is no implication involved. Private left because of people here. Fair enough.

I really don't think that is fair enough. It would be easy enough to show everyone what Private has posted elsewhere as her reasons, but I don't think that is a road we want to go down. She may have said one thing to you, but she has put out a different story in several other places.

You say you know why JP left based on your personal relationship with her. I know the same based on what I know off the board about Private.

And Private has posted other reasons elsewhere. If JP posts or posted other reasons elsewhere, I would acknowledge them.

Since I brought it up, I will clear it up. There is no implication involved. Private left because of people here. Fair enough.

I really don't think that is fair enough. It would be easy enough to show everyone what Private has posted elsewhere as her reasons, but I don't think that is a road we want to go down. She may have said one thing to you, but she has put out a different story in several other places.

I'm sorry if this offends... but the last post is an exact example of why many do not post. I agree, Jenn, that it would be more beneficial to all concerned on this entire forum if everyone could post without hesitating.

Again, I apologize. I have no problem with the poster, just the post.

I don't think this is entirely fair. The implication was made that Private left as a result of the people here. Many of us frequent other forums where Private has given other reasons for leaving. MPB was simply stating what Private has stated herself elsewhere -- other reasons were involved.

And often they didnt see they to were part of the problem it has always been easier to blame someone else, as was explained before there is a ignore button and you dont have to interact with someone you dont get along with. I just find it hard to believe and adult couple starting a life will continue on as always. Friends are friends not just here and not just part time. If you leave because other people make it not so enjoyable then you "let" them do that to you.

Well looking back, JP offered to make peace many times and that wasn't received very well, was it? And when Ewok posted his warning, JP apologized for her role; others saw fit to make it look like Ewok was only acting on their behalf by thanking him as if his message didn't address them at all. This keeps coming up - the record is clear as to who owned up to having a role, who tried to bury the hatchet and who didn't.

ETA: JP is in touch with the friends she made. Unfortunately, she is no longer here to make new friends or to share her experience and knowledge about the process, as well as her insight about Arab culture. I always appreciated her insight.

To me it seems people would in time leave normally. Couples reunite, start their lifes, have children, move, work, its all bound to change. People that have made special friends, still have their special frineds. I made a special friend on here and they dont post much but i still talk to them most every day. How many of our friends from school do we still talk to every day, things and people change. These are grown couples with lifes they dont need the computer except maybe occasionaly just to drop in and see how everyone is doing if they wanted the friendships to continue they will out side of VJ.

I am sure there are members that move on in the way you describe; however, recently members have stated this is not why they have left but because other members have made the forum a place they could no longer enjoy.

Well, I think I'm going to retire from VJ. I was just going to slip quietly off into the sunset, but then I thought, OMG, people will PM me and I won't know what they say, hehe.

If anyone wants to get in touch with me, I can be reached at rahmaa @ gmail.com (just remove the spaces).

Thanks to all the friends and happy people I've encountered in my nearly 2 years here. I hope those of you still waiting for a visa get it soon!

Now, must...stay...away...

don't be suprised if i can't though,

link

Rabat - Moroccans were Thursday preparing for several days of festivities to mark the birth of Princess Lalla Khadija, the second child of King Mohammed VI.

The baby was born at a clinic at the royal palace on Wednesday. The 4.16-kilo girl and her mother, Princess Lalla Salma, were reported to be "in perfect health".

Celebrations to mark the arrival of the new royal are expected to match those marking the birth of her brother three years ago, in a signal of growing respect for female children.

Dozens of people gathered in front of the palace, where the 43-year-old monarch made an appearance to greet citizens.

Cannons fired 21 shots and national television showed images of the monarch holding the newborn.

Special books were also to be laid out at regional government offices for people to congratulate the royal house.

According to Muslim tradition, the main celebrations were set to begin seven days after the birth - next Wednesday - and last several days.

Lalla Khadija's birth follows that of Crown Prince Moulay Hassan, named after King Mohammed's father Hassan II, in May 2003.

The warm reception for the new princess is seen as being in line with the "feminist" views of King Mohammed.

His regime is known as one of the foremost champions of the rights of women in the Arab world, according to analysts in Rabat.

The government has, for instance, reformed family law, raising the age of marriage for women, making polygamy almost impossible and improving the rights of women in situations of divorce.

For weeks already, Morocco had been preparing for the birth of the royal baby. Streets were decorated with flags, lanterns, and flowers, and pavements were repaired in the capital Rabat.

Celebrations, starting Wednesday, are to include the slaughter of sheep, prayers, banquets and music over several days throughout the Alawite kingdom.

In the coming days, Moroccans also expect to see images of the newborn with her mother.

The nation never saw Mohammed's mother, but the king has modernized protocol, giving a discreet public role to his wife Lalla Salma, an attractive red-head engineer whom he married in 2002.

The palace has also sought to reduce the aura of secrecy surrounding royal life, immediately announcing the birth of Lalla Khadija to counter rumours that she had been born days earlier.

Despite the huge gap separating the elite from the poor masses in the kingdom hungry for change, King Mohammed has retained a certain popularity, and the birth of the new princess has been welcomed as a joyful event.

The palace was skilled at protecting the king from criticism by "blaming anything negative on the government," one observer quipped.

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Happy Wednesday everyone! I'm blissful as can be. I got an email at 4:30am this morning with out interview date in Amman - and it ain't a seven month wait either. Alhumdulilah!!! Looks like I'll be cancelling my March 30th trip and heading over the first of May.

Hope everyone has a productive week!

Congratulations!! Looks like Amman is speeding things up.

How is it fraud? It will be an asset in my name. How the heck are they going to know I am going to pay it back? Once we get the Green Card they will not have access to my finances (I'm assuming).

So I will rephrase the question - Has anyone ever gotten a gift from a friend or family member to help you when filing for the i864.

A debt is not an asset, representing it as such would be fraud.