psychasthenia

The reason we express things without a minimizer is that the motivation stands on its own two feet as something important and justified. It isn't something you want to make seem insignificant. It's a fascinating insight and one you should watch for in a relationship. Listen for minimizers like "just" and "only". This is your spouse telling you they aren't proud of what they've done. But they've made a strategic decision: one decision would be to validate the feelings they are implicitly admitting are justified in the spouse. The other decision is to attack the spouse covertly by insinuating they are unreasonable for their feelings: make the spouse feel even worse for the bad feelings they already have.

Rlogan, you have such a dense writing style that I sometimes struggle to comprehend what you write.

Also, as the resident psychologist on the forum, you would probably know the difference between manipulative behaviors and manipulators. You classify people left and right as manipulators when you know very little about them or their relationships.

"The reason we express things without a minimizer is that the motivation stands on its own two feet as something important and justified. It isn't something you want to make seem insignificant. It's a fascinating insight and one you should watch for in a relationship. Listen for minimizers like "just" and "only". This is your spouse telling you they aren't proud of what they've done."

Interesting insight. Both people who manipulate and people who are on the receiving end of that behavior minimize. There was one poster who wrote about her partner being a narcissist, but she continues to be in a relationship with him. What is this called?

"But they've made a strategic decision: one decision would be to validate the feelings they are implicitly admitting are justified in the spouse. The other decision is to attack the spouse covertly by insinuating they are unreasonable for their feelings: make the spouse feel even worse for the bad feelings they already have."

My goodness, you can;t attack someone covertly when you invalidate their feelings.

Other than this, carry on...

Yep....we have already been checking into that. It seems that she will have to take some classes and work under the supervision of an already licensed pyschologist before she can start practicing here. We already have a five year plan in place

SHe is under the impression that it will take her a few years to get everything done on that front based on what she has heard and read from other psychologists that have come here from Russia...but I still want to research into a bit more...not everyone's journey is the quickest or a straight line. That's definitely good advice on the bringing of credentials...we will definitely be doing that. She thinks her biggest hurdle is learning the english terminology that goes along with her profession...but from what I have aeen of ability to soak up knowledge...I think this will be shortly overcome.

Congratulations on the visa! The process of becoming licensed as a (clinical) psychologist is going to be a very arduous process. In the US, a psychologist holds a Ph.D./Psy.D./ E.D. degree. The term psychologist is legally regulated and only doctoral level professionals can legally use it. ( I hear there are some states where master's levels call themselves psychologists in a school, which is a problem.) A clinical/counseling psychologist has to complete a predoctoral internship program at the end of graduate school. Usually they defend their dissertation and meet all their degree requirements before leaving for internship.

Does she have a Ph.D. in Psychology? In addition to pursuing additional classes to obtain her Ph.D., she will probably need to complete the internship program. I doubt that this requirement will be waived for her, and she may not want it to be waived because it will jeopardize future employment opportunities. The internship process is extremely stressful and competitive. Here is an article that describes the problem: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/health/views/internship-shortage-frustrates-psychology-students.html?_r=3&adxnnl=1&hpw=&adxnnlx=1322530393-RiEHA2SOxK9+JDoLM3Q+dw

It holds some inaccurate information over how the Match process actually works, but you can get a sense of the nature of the problem. Also know that if she wants to be competitive and be employed, she will need to complete a program accredited by the American Psychological Association. These are the competitive programs. There are some that are accredited by other institutions, but she will probably encounter problems when seeking employment. Most sites specifically require an APA-approved internship.

In addition to the internship, she will need to complete a postdoctoral year of training. This is probably what you were thinking about when you mentioned that she needs to be supervised by a licensed psychologist. She would need to be supervised during internship as well, but she will also be required to participate in classes while on internship. During postdoc, she has the option of pursuing formal or informal opportunities. She would be taking classes in a formal postdoc. No classes in an informal program. Only after she has accumulated between 1500-1750 clinical hours will she be eligible for the license. She will then need to pass an exam, Examination for Professional Practice in Psychology that covers 11 content areas in psychology (all the specializations in psych). A lot of the content areas that are tested are not even relevant to a clinical psychologist, but she will need to know about them. After she passes this exam and accrues her hours, she will be licensed and able to practice independently. Here is another article about what can happen when one does not properly transfer their license across states (http://online.wsj.com/article/AP5a1163e607c44f639a2e22b1d26b4179.html)

I would be happy to answer any questions you have about this process. There are other options that she could consider that would allow her to eventually conduct therapy and also make money. A clinical psychologist does not usually make a lot of money... Good luck!

and no im NOT wrong. i dont know in USA, im european , and there IT IS!! legal to do it without their consent because borderline IS a branch of schizo. dont tell me i dont know what im talking about because ive been dealing with this my whole life . damn old people who think they know everything under the sun

DeeDee, borderline personality disorder is not a branch of schizophrenia. Some individuals with borderline PD will sometimes have micropsychotic episodes (paranoia, auditory hallucinations) under extreme stress. Borderline is meant to suggest that people with this disorder are at the border between neuroses (most of us have them) and psychosis (difficulties with reality testing). This is the original conceptualization of this disorder.

OP: Diagnosing your wife with borderline personality disorder will not help you much. If she is unwilling to seek treatment for her difficulties, there is not much you can do other than accept her as she is or get out (look at distress tolerance in dialectical behavior therapy).

I don't know where you got your information about mental illness and the law but your information is WRONG. He cannot force her into inpatient OR outpatient treatment without her consent. Period end of story. As for borderline being "treatable", that's doubtful. Borderline is one of the rare psychiatric conditions that not only has a genetic component but an ENVIRONMENTAL component as well. These patients are very difficult to treat and impossible to cure. They are manipulative, deceptive, cunning, often dangerous and many other adjectives that I could put down in writing. Please refrain from giving advice on a subject that you clearly know little about.

Interesting. Borderline is one of the rare psychiatric conditions that has both a genetic and an environmental component? Would you be surprised to know that most, if not all, psychological conditions have a biological (sometimes genetic) predisposition that becomes activated by psychological stressors (abuse, poverty, neglect, etc)? By the way, the etiology of borderline personality disorder is yet to be clarified. So far, there are no "borderline genes."

Can you point me toward treatment outcome studies which state that "these patients being difficult to treat and impossible to cure"? As a side note, the "manipulative, deceptive, cunning, often dangerous" description refers to antisocial personality disorder, not borderline personality disorder. You know very little about this or other disorders.

DeeDee, in the US, the husband cannot hospitalize his wife for a psychiatric condition. She will need to be an imminent threat to herself or others before she would be involuntarily committed. And, borderline personality disorder is a condition which can be treated (as you said). There are also individuals who outgrow it on their own.

This is not the only place I have said so - at least three times then. So I have a question for you: If I say something at least three times, what is it that you are trying to do by saying the same thing back to me as if I had never said it?

Honestly, I did not read your posts entirely, so I missed those statements However, although you said that he was not ready to change, you insisted on showing him that he may have co-dependency issues. I don't think that helps him much.

I am guilty of this myself in my personal and professional life. I see the problems and I think I can help. But it's premature and it backfires. I'm still learning how to use my knowledge in such a way that it's actually helpful.

Don't you think RLogan and I should at least LIVE together first before he diagnoses me?

Oh, and sure I *like* it.

RLogan, can you come over for a couple months so you we can share some quality time mutually diagnosing each other?

PhilN, you don't need to live with someone in order to diagnose them . But I do think that you do need to interact with the person over a period of time before making a diagnosis.

Rlogan, PhilN is not ready to hear everything you write. The more you try to convince him of his problems, the more he will disagree. Also, sometimes insight is not even necessary for change.

Anyway, I'm still processing all this. I'll probably post some more updates later. I'm just glad it wasn't a "spousal maintenance" hearing like the other guy whose story I posted.

Hey, PhilN, I am glad to read that you are trying to process the whole situation now. I hope you are talking about emotionally processing it. In order to move on and learn from what happened, it might help you to actually grieve your loss. Only you know what dreams and hopes you had about this woman. Only you know what you went through. You are the arbiter of this and you know best, but it seems that your focus on BPD prevents you from dealing with the emotional sequalae of your loss.

PhilN, I did scold you. That's true. I have an issue with non-professional people diagnosing psychological conditions. That's the narcissism in me speaking

I hope that you follow through and actually separate from this woman. Irrespective of her diagnosis, your relationship is very unhealthy.

Wow, thanks for posting. I wanted to post again....I mean I REALY wanted to post again but I was afraid if I posted twice in a row I might be labled an OCP, (Obsessive compulsive poster).

OK here it is. I have a confession to make................................................I made up the screaming rule. I don't even know if there are rules for screaming. Life is better if we all follow the rules. But how can we follow them if we don't even know what they are? We were thinking about it and idiot is a a perfectly good screaming word and it does in fact have 3 syllables. Perhaps it is because the accent is on

the first syllable. If anyone out there knows the officially sanctioned rules for screaming we would like to hear what they are. And just for the record, I am %100 heterogenous most of the time.

Pretty funny! Cheers.

PhilN, I sincerely doubt that you will be ending your relationship with your fiancee. It's unfortunate because it sounds like it's quite toxic.

Your response to her comment about your hating her friends was excellent. Not because you responded well to her "BPD projection", but because you tried to understand why she would think that. You tried to clarify what she meant by that and what made her believe that. It showed that you were receptive to what she said even if her comment didn't make sense to you. I would suggest you stop using the fancy psychological jargon because it only creates emotional distance between you two. Most people project their feelings onto others, ranging from the most well-adjusted to the most primitive paranoid schizophrenic. We all use defense mechanisms. She seems to have difficulty tolerating strong, negative emotions.

That's why the belittling tactic does not work with me. You likely had a childhood where you saw this and other manipulative tactics used.

Let's see, should I say something belittling like "I see you have read some on this... good for you" and then invalidate you by saying you are not a clinical psychologist?

You have some kind of issue with me that really brings out the invalidator in you, and it is interesting.

You are heavily fixated on manipulation and seem to see it everywhere around you. That's quite interesting for me.

People who agree with your points of view are innocent people who fall prey to manipulative tactics. People who don't agree with you are the manipulators (who use manipulative tactics). You tend to see things in black and white. It's gotta be good. It simplifies life quite a bit

For me, it is clear that our conversation is absolutely meaningless. I am not really sure what you are trying to convince of. There is nothing that you will ever teach me about BPD. When you or PhilN will write on here about the difference between borderline personality organization vs. borderline personality disorder vs. borderline personality traits, I will take both of you seriously.

I only intervened in this conversation because of the BPD talk. If at least one person who reads here understands that BPD is a heterogenous category where people have different levels of impairment and respond to treatment idiosyncratically, I am happy. Some people with BPD outgrow it with age. Others benefit from treatment. Other people will never be able to adaptively manage the emotional dysregulation. You will not know how one particular person with supposedly BPD will respond to help. The ridiculous thing in this whole conversation is the fact that the poster's fiancee was actually diagnosed by her fiancee. He also happens to have zero background in psychology.

I was just about to write a message totally giving on up VJ for any further useful posts, and then you write this. Wow. Sincere thanks.

Yes, I agree PTSD is a strong possibility, even likelihood. There is more stuff like the drug addict ex in her background.

Maybe I'm wrong, and the PTSD is the major feature, and it triggers a latent and minor BPD tendency and set of behaviors in her. I don't need to humor you to see that your straw man theory is as plausible as any other, particularly the PTSD part. As far as "what if", well, at least I would know what I am dealing with, and be pointed in a more productive direction. It could even turn out that the "what you do about it" part is almost the same.

I'm not getting much out of the recent flurry of cynical armchair psychiatrist posts, but every now and then a true gem comes along, like this one from you. I will look at PTSD a bit more. She claims that she has never been physically abused in a relationship. I tend to believe her claims, because she is clever and skilled at getting others to do what she wants (what some would label "manipulative"). I have no doubt that she would be successful at getting many men in her life to behave like obedient little boys for her. She is a very strong woman in her own way. So for now I believe her claim of no physical abuse. However, I have to say, there was one time, when we were playing, I pretended as if I would slap her, and her reaction was one of immediate horror, anger, and "how dare you", instead of one of playfulness. So there could be something there as well, in past physical abuse. As the Russians say, "Ve trust, but ve verify."

PhilN, will you indulge me and respond how your diagnoses are going to help this woman? If you do find out that she meets criteria for PTSD, are you going to do exposure therapy to help her overcome her symptoms? Do you understand that diagnoses, when used legitimately by professionals, are used to help people? They inform treatments, they help professionals communicate with each other. How does it help you to diagnose your fiancee? Do you plan on learning about psychological treatments?

You seem to be very confused. You yourself seem to have a very inflexible way of approaching relationships. Think about that.

Really? and here I was representing myself as a clinical psychologist and all...

Maybe you could point out where I did that. The question is why you would insinuate I did so, or that I am too stupid to understand such an elementary thing. By the way in a lot of this literature that is specifically a tactic people with personality disorders do - they go on the attack "invalidating" anyone with knowledge of manipulative behavior. What they say is exactly what you just said: you are not a board certified clinical psychologist and therefore what you say is invalid. That is of course a logical fallacy. You have to show what it is someone says that is not true, and cite your source.

See how you feel qualfied to pose as a clinical psychologist yourself in handing out your opinion, like this one right here, without any background whatsoever? How are your actions consistent with your own words here?

If you want to point out as many of these authors do that remission is possible, or at least keeping it at bay is possible, well yes I agree and this "disagreement" is completely without basis. But there again neither of us is a clinical psychologist. So despite the fact we agree on this, there is no basis for either one of us saying it in the first place, despite the clinical psychologists themselves saying it. According to your premise.

Cheers anyway.

Rlogan, I do not need to pose as a clinical psychologist. And you should read up on board certified clinical psychologists. You probably meant to write licensed clinical psychologists. A very small minority of psychologists are board certified. It's not required and very few psychologists do it.

Again, I understand that you have read several books about personality disorders. Good for you. Your statement about the tactic is inaccurate. Some people who have personality disorders and are told about their diagnosis are actually relieved. They are relieved to know that there is a name for what they experience. They are glad to know that there are treatments out there for their difficulties. Other people with personality disorders do not respond the same way. It all varies. It also depends on who diagnoses them.

You seem to be fixated on the idea of manipulation. You seem to think that people with personality disorders manipulate others. Some do, some don't. Some do it consciously, some do it unconsciously.

I probably did not articulate my thoughts well last time. I meant to write that BPD is a an extremely heterogenous category with people who have different criteria and different levels of severity. You can never make sweeping statements about someone with BPD unless you know their particulars very well, their history, treatments, relationships, etc.

If you had known this about her from the beginning - a clinical personality disorder that is incurable and extremely difficult to contend with - you would not have forged ahead with engagement for marriage. You know what you are in for now. If people criticize you for sending her home, let them marry her. The questions to focus on now are how to do proceed with parting paths most civilly.

Rlogan, personality disorders are by definition clinical. I know that you have read a lot of psychology/self-help books, but that does not make you a psychologist. You make sweeping statements that are completely unfounded. There are people with BPD who have outgrown it. It happens. There are people who have BDP traits, and not the whole disorder. Treatment outcomes vary. From the poster's description, you do not know much about this woman. You know only his version of events, and it's extremely biased.

I appreciate your posts. I have read several of them; however, let mental health professionals talk about psychiatric diagnoses. The few or so books you have read - do not qualify you to speak about this area.

Here are my answers to your post:

PhilN, you do have a need to pathologize this woman. You are continually referring to her as having a personality disorder. A personality disorder is a serious condition, which only professionals should be diagnosing. I am not offended about your diagnosing her, I am surprised. But I understand that it helps you to devalue her. It helps you provide an explanation for whatever has happened between you two. You are in no way a mental health professional, so your "exceedingly clear" diagnosis is bogus.

You are right. I did not read a lot of your earlier posts. I read the original one where you described your situation; I sympathized with you because it's got to be difficult for you. When you started discussing BPD, I started wondering about your motivations. What are you trying to accomplish by writing here? I initially thought it was because you wanted to get information from others who are more experienced in immigration matters. Over time, your interest seems to have changed dramatically. You are diagnosing this woman, on an immigration forum. Are you looking for confirmation on your diagnosis here? Do you want support? Do you want somebody to reassure you in some way?

Wow, I am amazed at what you write. You go from referring to your fiancee as "my girl" (implying caring, protection, etc) to "potential BPD" (completely devaluing and belittling her). Of course the woman from the clinic was hostile and suspicious toward you. It is not typical for people to diagnose others and then to try and convince them that they have irreparable issues.

I know of several effective programs. Why would I be pointing them to you when I do not know whether this woman does have a personality disorder? I see what you are doing as abusive. If you do not believe you can have a relationship with this woman, cut your losses. How does it help you to have her in treatment? Logistically, how would she stay in the country for this treatment? I thought you were reconnecting with your American ex. How is the Russian fiancee fitting in this situation? You sure like to complicate your life. I highly doubt that you are as naive and gullible as you portray yourself to be.

PhilN, these "BPDs" are actually people who happen to have a personality disorder. Their diagnosis is one aspect of them. Lots of them are highly successful professionally and personally, but they do struggle with certain things. Just like we all struggle with things but to a smaller degree. It's incredible how much you need to distance yourself emotionally from this women. She got under your skin in some way...

Which daytime trash talk show would this be best for? We're a little high end for Jerry Springer and Maury Povich, and nobody's pregnant.

I am sharing this train-wreck as a cautionary tale for all who might experience similar things. It is, of course, 100% my fault for ignoring signs and bringing this woman here in the first place. I had the good fortune of never being in a relationship with a BPD, NPD, etc. before, so I just assumed my girl was just much more emotional than the average woman. Now I am getting a crash course in BPD.

Phil N, I am having some difficulty believing some of the things you write here. I find it quite interesting this need of yours to pathologize your former fiancee. Why are you trying to diagnose her? This is actually showing control issues on your side as well. By "diagnosing" her, you are creating a power differential in your relationship and identifying her as the "problematic" one. It's also interesting to see how much you externalize the responsibility for this situation. If this person meets criteria for borderline personality disorder, then there would have been signs about her relational issues throughout your relationship. You chose to ignore them for whatever reason. I would suggest you look into that. You seem to be provoking this woman as well, which suggests you have your own issues that you cannot address in an adaptive way.

I would think that if you genuinely suspected a personality disorder, you would have encouraged her to meet with a bona fide professional who could help her. It seems like you live in the Seattle area. In that case, you may know that there are several training clinics that provide therapy at a sliding fee scale. You are in no way qualified to make psychiatric diagnoses. I hope that your diligent reading about BDP highlighted that while this is a serious condition, there are several highly effective treatments for it. Linehan's program is only one of them.

Thank you for your input. I am applying for a MA in Counseling Psychology and the speacialization will be in School Counseling. Yes, I have talked mostly about my professional experience with children and about my graduation thesis that was an intervention project implementated in kindergarten. I believe I gave too many details about that graduation project and I am not sure if they need to know about methods of research, how many subjects did I administer questionairres to, etc. What to you think?

I agree. I don't think they need/want to know too many details about research methods. It's sufficient to list what analyses you used (ANOVAs, regression, factor analysis, etc), the population, and the results. If you want, PM me your email and I can forward you a couple of personal statements that I have. They are written for Clinical Psychology Ph.D. programs, but they can give you an idea about what others have written.

Hello everybody!!!

I have just finished writing my personal statement for a Psychology graduate program. I gave it to my mother in law to review it and she says "it is too long". My husband says it is very good the way it is, as it includes various and relevant professional experiences.

I must say it is a 4 pages essay and neither my mother in law or my husband webt through a graduate program. I was also aware of following a structure in writing my essay.

What do you guys think....Is it really too long?Has anyone applied for a graduate program that requested a personal statement?Any other tips that I should be aware of?

Thank you!!!!!!!

Juliava, I'm glad to read that you are applying to a Psych grad program. I am currently completing my pre-doctoral internship in Clinical Psychology (the last year before my PhD degree). In terms of your questions, a four-page essay is indeed a bit long . Committee members receive hundreds of applications; they don't have the time or interest to read long essays. In addition to length, content is very important. Are you applying to a Master's or a PhD program? Depending on the program and its focus, it is recommended that you talk about your research/clinical experiences in your personal statement. If you have other questions, I would be happy to help. Good luck!