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[slim 1,533]

What's not being said here is the outside factors that will undoubtedly affect Russo-American relations more greatly than anything else - the third (and subsequent) country factor.

Who cares what's going on between Russia and the U.S. when China starts to engulf it's neighbors. And when Pakistan and India go at it, even if we (quietly) choose different sides to make money off of, we're still going to be holding hands on the White House lawn or in the halls of the Kremlin when we "attempt" peace for the sake of all humanity.

There's way more at stake than just keeping the peace. Both of our nations are so greedy, it's almost impossible for an escalation of tensions to reach proportions where nationals married to foreigners would be barred re-entry.

[Nancy2015 2]

I have one word for it. Paranoia. My husband is one of those older generation Americans with memories of bomb shelters and Cold War and all that stuff, and quite frankly, this was the major thing that kept driving us apart. Some people just can't relax.

[Danno 1,228]

Your comments about the "certainty of a nuclear exchange" and how few voices were available to add calm is one reason, I am 80% certain in a decade we will be amazed the whole world (actually the .. just the western world) were certain that Global warming was going to destroy us all.

For some reason the voices of doom and gloom always seem to have the microphone.

My G_d, could you imagine if the Global warming experts were around during the years of the Dust bowl era, they would have charged us all a ton of money (taxes) implemented their plans and then took all the credit with Nobel prizes and magazine covers a few years later after the weather normalized.

[Nancy2015 2]

and I'm sure a majority of Russians felt that way too.

Nope, they didn't.

I can't imagine what it would be about that era that's driving you and your husband apart, unless of course you're an unapologetic Communist,

You do understand that communism and the Soviet system are not the same thing, don't you?

Well, you are obviously a lot older than me, so it's very hard to relate. It may seem at first that generation gap is easy to overcome, but it's not.

[Nancy2015 2]

and I'm sure a majority of Russians felt that way too.

Nope, they didn't.

I bet if you talked with relatives who grew up in the 80's they'd tell you differently. I spent much of the late 80's and early 90's in the Navy in a job where I...er..."studied" the Russians a lot. I'd never tell you that I know your people better than you do, but from my vantage point the average Russian and the average American had a lot in common when it came to cold war fears.

My brother-in-law did the same, but in the Air Force.

Americans tend to take things more seriously, in my opinion. We didn't get half as paranoid after all our terrorist attacks as you got after 9/11. I may be full of it, but it's my impression. It can be wrong, and solid arguments against it may very well convince me otherwise.

Edited November 14, 2007 by Sid and Nancy

[russ 1]

The Russian Revolution, for example, is just something we have nothing to compare to. Americans have been very fortunate. We have never really had to face true adversity.

There was this thing called the "American Revolution."

And the American Civil War, the bloodiest war the US has ever seen, which was not so different.

[russ 1]

Agreed but we have no "institutional" memory of either of these wars. For most Americans the Civil War is all about the Gettysburg Address (which most Americans have never read or even know what it's about) and Gone with the Wind. I read a survey sometime back where 70% of responding high school kids believed George Washington fought in the Civil War. That's sad.

Over 500,000 died during the civil war, it was hardly a trivial event.

The American Revolution was similar to the Russian one, we both had a King, and both got rid of him. Our new government just lasted a bit longer.

For sheer bloodiness, the Russian Revolution probably beats the American Revolution and the American Civil War combined and several times over. And that's just one example of Russian upheaval. We've never had to experience the likes of World War I,

Again, I would have to disagree. The 116,000 Americans who died during WWI would probably disagree as well. The Russians avoided the worst of it, as the government collapsed during the war. Most Russian deaths were from the revolution that began during the war.

The British, French, and German losses during the Great War were truly disgusting. I've been to many of the WWI battlefields. Entire generations of young men were wiped out in Canada, New Zealand and Australia fighting this war.

Canadians still certainly remember it, probably moreso than WWII. I have a red poppy for Nov 11th.

nor the sheer death toll in World War II. The Soviet Union lost over 20 million people in WW2. The United States lost just over 400,000. Post WW2 was almost as bloody. Nobody knows how many died to Stalin, but it was in the millions. It could in fact be worse than the Nazi Holocaust.

Actually the Soviet Union lost over 20 million before WWII even started. By almost every academic tally, Stalin killed far more Russians than Hitler did. (I don't think either of them were very nice people.)

After WWII was not as bloody. After Stalin's death, the purges ended almost completely.

As I say, we have nothing to compare this sheer loss of humanity to. What's more, the Russians study it from an early age. (this may be less true these days, which would be a shame) There is a clear institutional history, a connectedness to their past that we lack, and I think that's to our detriment. We simply don't know how to deal with adversity when it comes our way, and so we overreact because most Americans have nothing to compare it to.

History in Russia has still largely been whitewashed and altered. Many Russians would not believe that the US and UK even fought in World War II. Much of the destruction in the Soviet Union was a result of the poor planning and poor strategy of the Soviets at the beginning of the war. Remember, the Soviets were an aggressor in this war (they annexed Finland and Poland, which both caused great losses on thier own, and sped up the German offensive).

Still a sore spot with my (Finnish) family.

[Jasman0717 9]

I would hope we are done with the "cold war" era

[Nancy2015 2]

History in Russia has still largely been whitewashed and altered. Many Russians would not believe that the US and UK even fought in World War II. Much of the destruction in the Soviet Union was a result of the poor planning and poor strategy of the Soviets at the beginning of the war. Remember, the Soviets were an aggressor in this war (they annexed Finland and Poland, which both caused great losses on thier own, and sped up the German offensive).

Still a sore spot with my (Finnish) family.

Some of the statements in your post are not entirely correct, and the one in bold is just plain wrong. I really don't understand why you came to this conclusion.

[Nancy2015 2]

The American Revolution was similar to the Russian one, we both had a King, and both got rid of him. Our new government just lasted a bit longer.

In a sense it was similar, but on the other hand, it was entirely different. We're talking about the October revolution of 1917, correct? There were three revolutions at the beginning of the 20th century, 1905-07, February 1917 and October 1917. The bloodiest thing was the Civil War that followed the one in October, and the Intervention. No one ever remembers the Intervention...

I don't think Russians are in any way "stoic" or anything like that - we just don't give a ####### most of the time. I certainly don't, unless I'm being pushed. Then I push back

[Danno 1,228]

As far as global warming goes, <snip> some of the brightest climatologists in the world, and I can tell you that they're convinced that global warming is real, .........

I don't doubt they do believe it's real, in fact this type of group-think backed up with "science of the day" has, historically happened over and over on down through time yet we always have the utmost confidence in the latest round of science... as if we have "finally arrived."

Perhaps this time they will be correct, but I can promise you if they are not, there will be no public flogging, no one will ask "how they could have been so certain and yet so wrong".... Nope, it will be on to the next Doom and Gloom story line.

[Danno 1,228]

Agreed but we have no "institutional" memory of either of these wars. For most Americans the Civil War is all about the Gettysburg Address (which most Americans have never read or even know what it's about) and Gone with the Wind. I read a survey sometime back where 70% of responding high school kids believed George Washington fought in the Civil War. That's sad.

Over 500,000 died during the civil war, it was hardly a trivial event.

Um...I didn't say that it was.

Actually, I believe it was more like .........................600,000.

Thats a lot of friggin people, I think Iraq is right around 4000.

[russ 1]

Actually, I believe it was more like .........................600,000.

Thats a lot of friggin people, I think Iraq is right around 4000.

It was a big deal. It was the first case of modern warfare, machine guns, etc. The US was a much smaller place then, there were only 27 million of us at the time. We are ten times larger now, it would be like 6 million Americans dying if such a war happened today.

[slim 1,533]

Thats a lot of friggin people, I think Iraq is right around 4000.

4,000 people, or 4,000 Americans?

I guess we're not counting Iraqis and others as people anymore. Too bad, because they sure count themselves as people.

[Danno 1,228]

Thats a lot of friggin people, I think Iraq is right around 4000.

4,000 people, or 4,000 Americans?

I guess we're not counting Iraqis and others as people anymore. Too bad, because they sure count themselves as people.

-------------------

Sure people are people.

We can count civilian deaths in Iraq as well, only problem is, the "numbers" are hard to know because groups at both end of the spectrum seem to be adding or minimizing according to their

political goals.

Since 5 American wars were mentioned here ... why is it you only feel the need to count civilians when "Iraq" came to the table?

Someone with more time than me please post civilian casualties for some other wars.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Danno