Giuliani cites Glasgow attack in call for immigration policy

[Dan J 277]

I gave you my reasons, or did you just skim over them?

The non-logical reasons, compassion and forgiveness. Which are values that are part of the bible. Which makes no sense, since many of those opposed considered themselves Christian. I have compassion for those risking their lives crossing the desert, many of whom end up dead. And in my opinion anyone can be forgiven, more so if their crime is not one that harms or kills another human being.

Economic reason, we will go into a recession with job loss in all sectors if we remove 12 million people from the economy, I would much prefer to keep my job, thank you. The impact is simply way beyond just low skilled jobs. The economy is completely interconnected. You change one area of the economy very significantly, and you will see the rest of the economy change with it. Some businesses, not directly related to providing low skilled jobs have grown indirectly due to illegal immigrants. Which means they have added more jobs to fill their needs. Now, remove those 12 million people, and even other companies will end up downsizing. And it could cost you your job. But hey, low skilled jobs will be looking for workers

Cost vs Benefit, enforcement alone is expensive, and it will be a cost we will continue to have to pay every single year. But also looking at our enforcement efforts in other areas such as the war on drugs, I don't see immigration enforcement as having much success. Albiet its easier to smuggle drugs than people. You can build a wall, but as long as the demand is still there, illegal immigrants will still find a way in, although they will be forced to take much more dangerous routes. Saying that enforcement will work on its own, is totally ignoring reality and history. Without understanding history, we are simply doomed to repeat it.

Image reasons, Do you understand how bad putting up a wall and militarizing it looks? Sure its a physical wall, but its also a symbolic one as well. I don't expect many people to understand this. Considering there was majority support for the Iraq war without really considering its impact on public diplomacy and foreign relations. Due to our participation in ending WW2, we were looked at as a great nation and had a lot of good will. But we have since squandered that, and a wall only further cements that.

There are other reasons to, as long as the immigrants remain illegal, there will be employers willing to exploit them for wages way below minimum wage. As long as they are illegal, they have no recourse. This is also a problem with the current guest worker program, as employees are not able to switch employers. Making them legal, gives them rights and power to deal with employers who would rather exploit than be fair. The illegal immigrants are poor, is partly out of this.

And as to who will pay for college? Well we already have a lot of grant and low interest loan programs for college. If you don't qualify, your likely already making enough to pay for it on your own. What else do we need?

[smoke20 0]

I gave you my reasons, or did you just skim over them?

The non-logical reasons, compassion and forgiveness. Which are values that are part of the bible. Which makes no sense, since many of those opposed considered themselves Christian. I have compassion for those risking their lives crossing the desert, many of whom end up dead. And in my opinion anyone can be forgiven, more so if their crime is not one that harms or kills another human being.

Economic reason, we will go into a recession with job loss in all sectors if we remove 12 million people from the economy, I would much prefer to keep my job, thank you. The impact is simply way beyond just low skilled jobs. The economy is completely interconnected. You change one area of the economy very significantly, and you will see the rest of the economy change with it. Some businesses, not directly related to providing low skilled jobs have grown indirectly due to illegal immigrants. Which means they have added more jobs to fill their needs. Now, remove those 12 million people, and even other companies will end up downsizing. And it could cost you your job. But hey, low skilled jobs will be looking for workers

Cost vs Benefit, enforcement alone is expensive, and it will be a cost we will continue to have to pay every single year. But also looking at our enforcement efforts in other areas such as the war on drugs, I don't see immigration enforcement as having much success. Albiet its easier to smuggle drugs than people. You can build a wall, but as long as the demand is still there, illegal immigrants will still find a way in, although they will be forced to take much more dangerous routes. Saying that enforcement will work on its own, is totally ignoring reality and history. Without understanding history, we are simply doomed to repeat it.

Image reasons, Do you understand how bad putting up a wall and militarizing it looks? Sure its a physical wall, but its also a symbolic one as well. I don't expect many people to understand this. Considering there was majority support for the Iraq war without really considering its impact on public diplomacy and foreign relations. Due to our participation in ending WW2, we were looked at as a great nation and had a lot of good will. But we have since squandered that, and a wall only further cements that.

There are other reasons to, as long as the immigrants remain illegal, there will be employers willing to exploit them for wages way below minimum wage. As long as they are illegal, they have no recourse. This is also a problem with the current guest worker program, as employees are not able to switch employers. Making them legal, gives them rights and power to deal with employers who would rather exploit than be fair. The illegal immigrants are poor, is partly out of this.

And as to who will pay for college? Well we already have a lot of grant and low interest loan programs for college. If you don't qualify, your likely already making enough to pay for it on your own. What else do we need?

thank you. thats an answer. i don't agree w/ you, but its an answer.

sorry lucy, gemvita & everyone else. back to topic.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Who does ID theft to get a job, harm?

It harms the person that the identity belongs to. It affects that person's credit score and will have an adverse effect if that person happens to be eligible for SS benefits. Many people have to fight the SSA for their benefits that are being denied because the SSA record shows that you're still working while it's actually some illegal alien that is working using your identity.

Not to wish anything bad on anyone but it would be rather intersting to see how you'd feel when it's your ID that is "harmlessly" stolen. When you can't qualify for credit to buy that car or that home because lots of credit has been extended to you already - just that you're not aware of it.

ID theft is a criminal offense for a reason. There is no such thing as a harmless ID theft. Once you're the victim, you'd probably understand.

[Dan J 277]

Who does ID theft to get a job, harm?

It harms the person that the identity belongs to. It affects that person's credit score and will have an adverse effect if that person happens to be eligible for SS benefits. Many people have to fight the SSA for their benefits that are being denied because the SSA record shows that you're still working while it's actually some illegal alien that is working using your identity.

Not to wish anything bad on anyone but it would be rather intersting to see how you'd feel when it's your ID that is "harmlessly" stolen. When you can't qualify for credit to buy that car or that home because lots of credit has been extended to you already - just that you're not aware of it.

ID theft is a criminal offense for a reason. There is no such thing as a harmless ID theft. Once you're the victim, you'd probably understand.

I think there is a misunderstanding on what is meant by ID theft. With illegal aliens most ID theft will just occur to get someone a job. Which will have no effect on the person who might own the number. Other than they end up with more social security benefits then they are entitled too. And for a fake number well SS and taxes get paid for a person that doesn't exist. Ones credit score will likely not be affected.

Now the ID theft that your talking about is different. Thats ID theft used to get credit and commit fraud. Since many illegal aliens can get help from the Mexican embassy with matrícula consular to get credit and cell phones, they don't need to resort to ID theft to do so.

There are people committing ID theft, but this isn't a specifically immigration related issue.

thank you. thats an answer. i don't agree w/ you, but its an answer.

sorry lucy, gemvita & everyone else. back to topic.

Then we can agree to disagree, may the best man or woman win.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Who does ID theft to get a job, harm?

It harms the person that the identity belongs to. It affects that person's credit score and will have an adverse effect if that person happens to be eligible for SS benefits. Many people have to fight the SSA for their benefits that are being denied because the SSA record shows that you're still working while it's actually some illegal alien that is working using your identity.

Not to wish anything bad on anyone but it would be rather intersting to see how you'd feel when it's your ID that is "harmlessly" stolen. When you can't qualify for credit to buy that car or that home because lots of credit has been extended to you already - just that you're not aware of it.

ID theft is a criminal offense for a reason. There is no such thing as a harmless ID theft. Once you're the victim, you'd probably understand.

I think there is a misunderstanding on what is meant by ID theft. With illegal aliens most ID theft will just occur to get someone a job. Which will have no effect on the person who might own the number. Other than they end up with more social security benefits then they are entitled too. And for a fake number well SS and taxes get paid for a person that doesn't exist. Ones credit score will likely not be affected.

Now the ID theft that your talking about is different. Thats ID theft used to get credit and commit fraud. Since many illegal aliens can get help from the Mexican embassy with matrícula consular to get credit and cell phones, they don't need to resort to ID theft to do so.

When a person has a legitimate claim for SS benefits due to a disability, for example, the SSA will not honor that claim if the record shows that contributions from employment are coming in under that person's SSN. The person in need of the benefits then will need to clear up the fraudulent use of his/her SSN before receiving the benefits they are due. That's not harmless. ID theft is never harmless. Ever.

If you feel differently, maybe you ought to volunteer your SSN up for use by illegal aliens. Since no harm will be done to you, you shouldn't have a problem with that. Would you walk the walk? I didn't think so.

Edited July 2, 2007 by ET-US2004

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Dan + Gemvita,

You realize most illegal immigrants don't undergo a medical exam or background check? How do you feel about that. I don't like it one bit.

[Dan J 277]

Dan + Gemvita,

You realize most illegal immigrants don't undergo a medical exam or background check? How do you feel about that. I don't like it one bit.

Legalization could change that, and any guest worker program would likely require that. You cant require something of someone who is not suppose to be here.

[Dan J 277]

Who does ID theft to get a job, harm?

It harms the person that the identity belongs to. It affects that person's credit score and will have an adverse effect if that person happens to be eligible for SS benefits. Many people have to fight the SSA for their benefits that are being denied because the SSA record shows that you're still working while it's actually some illegal alien that is working using your identity.

Not to wish anything bad on anyone but it would be rather intersting to see how you'd feel when it's your ID that is "harmlessly" stolen. When you can't qualify for credit to buy that car or that home because lots of credit has been extended to you already - just that you're not aware of it.

ID theft is a criminal offense for a reason. There is no such thing as a harmless ID theft. Once you're the victim, you'd probably understand.

I think there is a misunderstanding on what is meant by ID theft. With illegal aliens most ID theft will just occur to get someone a job. Which will have no effect on the person who might own the number. Other than they end up with more social security benefits then they are entitled too. And for a fake number well SS and taxes get paid for a person that doesn't exist. Ones credit score will likely not be affected.

Now the ID theft that your talking about is different. Thats ID theft used to get credit and commit fraud. Since many illegal aliens can get help from the Mexican embassy with matrícula consular to get credit and cell phones, they don't need to resort to ID theft to do so.

When a person has a legitimate claim for SS benefits due to a disability, for example, the SSA will not honor that claim if the record shows that contributions from employment are coming in under that person's SSN. The person in need of the benefits then will need to clear up the fraudulent use of his/her SSN before receiving the benefits they are due. That's not harmless. ID theft is never harmless. Ever.

If you feel differently, maybe you ought to volunteer your SSN up for use by illegal aliens. Since no harm will be done to you, you shouldn't have a problem with that. Would you walk the walk? I didn't think so.

You are describing a problem that can be easily solved through amnesty and legalization. It doesn't really matter, it will pretty much go away in either solution.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Dan + Gemvita,

You realize most illegal immigrants don't undergo a medical exam or background check? How do you feel about that. I don't like it one bit.

Legalization could change that, and any guest worker program would likely require that. You cant require something of someone who is not suppose to be here.

It's called the 'law'. So.... If I'm in your house and I'm not supposed to be there it's OK to steal your things? Hey... don't mind me.. "I'm not supposed to be here".

[Dan J 277]

Dan + Gemvita,

You realize most illegal immigrants don't undergo a medical exam or background check? How do you feel about that. I don't like it one bit.

Legalization could change that, and any guest worker program would likely require that. You cant require something of someone who is not suppose to be here.

It's called the 'law'. So.... If I'm in your house and I'm not supposed to be there it's OK to steal your things? Hey... don't mind me.. "I'm not supposed to be here".

Still legalizing them would solve it. They would get a background check and medical check. If they refuse it, they can go home. Amnesty is not about circumventing the standard immigration process. Its only making them eligible to use it.

We still have to reform the temporary worker program and make it possible for those who want to, to immigrate here.

So really, another issue that will be more or less solved regardless of what path we take. And not an argument against amnesty, or for enforcement. Just a problem that will be solved in either case.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Dan + Gemvita,

You realize most illegal immigrants don't undergo a medical exam or background check? How do you feel about that. I don't like it one bit.

Legalization could change that, and any guest worker program would likely require that. You cant require something of someone who is not suppose to be here.

It's called the 'law'. So.... If I'm in your house and I'm not supposed to be there it's OK to steal your things? Hey... don't mind me.. "I'm not supposed to be here".

Still legalizing them would solve it. They would get a background check and medical check. If they refuse it, they can go home. Amnesty is not about circumventing the standard immigration process. Its only making them eligible to use it.

We still have to reform the temporary worker program and make it possible for those who want to, to immigrate here.

So really, another issue that will be more or less solved regardless of what path we take. And not an argument against amnesty, or for enforcement. Just a problem that will be solved in either case.

But they won't go home. They are breaking immigration law now. Why would they honor it later?

[Dan J 277]

Dan + Gemvita,

You realize most illegal immigrants don't undergo a medical exam or background check? How do you feel about that. I don't like it one bit.

Legalization could change that, and any guest worker program would likely require that. You cant require something of someone who is not suppose to be here.

It's called the 'law'. So.... If I'm in your house and I'm not supposed to be there it's OK to steal your things? Hey... don't mind me.. "I'm not supposed to be here".

Still legalizing them would solve it. They would get a background check and medical check. If they refuse it, they can go home. Amnesty is not about circumventing the standard immigration process. Its only making them eligible to use it.

We still have to reform the temporary worker program and make it possible for those who want to, to immigrate here.

So really, another issue that will be more or less solved regardless of what path we take. And not an argument against amnesty, or for enforcement. Just a problem that will be solved in either case.

But they won't go home. They are breaking immigration law now. Why would they honor it later?

They don't have to go home. We allow for adjustment of status for those already here. And you have to go through the Medical and background checks before they are granted a green card.

I think most people would rather have legal status, it would make their life easier and they wouldn't have to live in the constant fear of deportation.

Immigration enforcement with 100,000 or even one million people is a hell of a lot easier and cheaper than 12-20 million people. With amnesty, and immigration and temporary worker reform, we will create a lot of goodwill in communities that support illegal immigrants. Which in turn will make the job of enforcement and deportation of those that don't qualify for legal status alot easier. Amnesty and reform can work to make enforcement cheaper and easier.

[GaryC 7]

Right, solve the problem by making what they do legal. That makes a lot of sense. I would like to rob banks. It isn't hurting anyone. Only the FDIC will lose money. Can we make that legal?

[Dan J 277]

Right, solve the problem by making what they do legal. That makes a lot of sense. I would like to rob banks. It isn't hurting anyone. Only the FDIC will lose money. Can we make that legal?

Sure you can do that if you want. I'll be on my way out by then, I would rather not be around when the economy collapses.

But legalizing illegal immigrants wont have such and impact, other than pissing of people like you. Who really haven't justified why amnesty is a bad solution to the problem. I know why some people don't like amnesty, and well, try to find other reasons, as their real reasons would be very politically incorrect. There are probably good reasons, outside of "No More Amnesty!" to not do it. But lets keep the debate about those reasons rather than polls, and biased research.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Who does ID theft to get a job, harm?

It harms the person that the identity belongs to. It affects that person's credit score and will have an adverse effect if that person happens to be eligible for SS benefits. Many people have to fight the SSA for their benefits that are being denied because the SSA record shows that you're still working while it's actually some illegal alien that is working using your identity.

Not to wish anything bad on anyone but it would be rather intersting to see how you'd feel when it's your ID that is "harmlessly" stolen. When you can't qualify for credit to buy that car or that home because lots of credit has been extended to you already - just that you're not aware of it.

ID theft is a criminal offense for a reason. There is no such thing as a harmless ID theft. Once you're the victim, you'd probably understand.

I think there is a misunderstanding on what is meant by ID theft. With illegal aliens most ID theft will just occur to get someone a job. Which will have no effect on the person who might own the number. Other than they end up with more social security benefits then they are entitled too. And for a fake number well SS and taxes get paid for a person that doesn't exist. Ones credit score will likely not be affected.

Now the ID theft that your talking about is different. Thats ID theft used to get credit and commit fraud. Since many illegal aliens can get help from the Mexican embassy with matrícula consular to get credit and cell phones, they don't need to resort to ID theft to do so.

When a person has a legitimate claim for SS benefits due to a disability, for example, the SSA will not honor that claim if the record shows that contributions from employment are coming in under that person's SSN. The person in need of the benefits then will need to clear up the fraudulent use of his/her SSN before receiving the benefits they are due. That's not harmless. ID theft is never harmless. Ever.

If you feel differently, maybe you ought to volunteer your SSN up for use by illegal aliens. Since no harm will be done to you, you shouldn't have a problem with that. Would you walk the walk? I didn't think so.

You are describing a problem that can be easily solved through amnesty and legalization. It doesn't really matter, it will pretty much go away in either solution.

It'll go away if the illegals are not be treated as if they were above the law.

Use a fake ID, we'll track you down and kick you out. Problem solved.

No amnesty needed.