John Crawford Case: It’s Open Carry for Whites and Open Season on Blacks

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Keep living in the past and see how far that gets people. Keep claiming victimhood for things that happened before you were born etc. etc. I'm sure a lot of these immigrants have had WAY worse in their home countries. Look at some of the caste business that goes on in India and other places. Keep crying racism at every turn and see how far that goes in the long run. Eventually people will become tone deaf to it and will ignore it when an ACTUAL case of racism occurs.

To add to that, I have zero sympathy for anyone that has no desire to help themselves.

Who cries it?

When we post stats of income equality, it's the crime stats.

When we post about school equality, it's the crime stats.

When we post about black people who get hired less without criminal records than white people who do, it's about the crime stats.

When we post about black men with prison sentencing longer than white people, it's about crime stats and income.

Like I said, when you're self worth is constantly being targeted(I got lucky my mother fought this tooth and nail), it does something to you.

[Karee 4,191]

Who cries it?

When we post stats of income equality, it's the crime stats.

When we post about school equality, it's the crime stats.

When we post about black people who get hired less without criminal records than white people who do, it's about the crime stats.

When we post about black men with prison sentencing longer than white people, it's about crime stats and income.

Like I said, when you're self worth is constantly being targeted(I got lucky my mother fought this tooth and nail), it does something to you.

Nice try, but WRONG. It's the crime stats when when we're discussing why there's so many black people in prison. It's the crime stats when black people are claiming that they're the victims of racism in the criminal justice system. When people break the law it's the CRIME STATS.

As I've said before it's the income, not the race when it comes to prison sentencing.

Not sure what school equality has to do with crime stats.

But hey, keep blaming everything on racism. Let's see how far that gets folks. I suspect not very far.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

When black Americans start taking some ownership of the reasons they are not where they are today, instead of playing the race card when things don't work out for them, then maybe there will be progress. Not only that, but there have been countless social programs over the years to help black folks out, yet they still have the same percentage of folks blow the poverty line that they did 30-40 years ago. Why is it that immigrants that come here ( a lot not even knowing the language) seem to do well? Some of it probably has to do with the fact that they don't feel like they are owed something for things that occurred before they were born.

This racial sense of entitlement is part of the problem, and some of the self proclaimed black leaders of today have no problem feeding that sense of entitlement.

Keep living in the past and see how far that gets people. Keep claiming victimhood for things that happened before you were born etc. etc. I'm sure a lot of these immigrants have had WAY worse in their home countries. Look at some of the caste business that goes on in India and other places. Keep crying racism at every turn and see how far that goes in the long run. Eventually people will become tone deaf to it and will ignore it when an ACTUAL case of racism occurs.

To add to that, I have zero sympathy for anyone that has no desire to help themselves.

Nice try, but WRONG. It's the crime stats when when we're discussing why there's so many black people in prison. It's the crime stats when black people are claiming that they're the victims of racism in the criminal justice system. When people break the law it's the CRIME STATS.

As I've said before it's the income, not the race when it comes to prison sentencing.

Not sure what school equality has to do with crime stats.

But hey, keep blaming everything on racism. Let's see how far that gets folks. I suspect not very far.

What I was talking about earlier - this is an example of it.

I get that you are frustrated by something that you don't understand, but rather than try to increase your understanding you start throwing out arguments that lean towards the bigoted side of the fence.

I'd suggest it might be better to try and find the answer to your questions, before you dole out judgement.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Why is it that immigrants that come here ( a lot not even knowing the language) seem to do well? Some of it probably has to do with the fact that they don't feel like they are owed something for things that occurred before they were born.

Here's a possible answer for you:

Sociologists examine possible explanations for race, nativity gaps in U.S.

A larger proportion of immigrant black high school graduates attend selective colleges and universities than either native black or white students in America, according to a study by sociologists at Johns Hopkins and Syracuse universities.

Pamela R. Bennett of Johns Hopkins and Amy Lutz of Syracuse examined the destinations for those who attend college as reported by the National Education Longitudinal Study of 1988, a nationally representative study of students who were in the eighth grade in 1988 and who were followed for 12 years. Bennett and Lutz found that among immigrant black students—those who either immigrated with their families or are American-born children of immigrants—9.2 percent were enrolled in elite colleges, such as those in the Ivy League, compared with 2.4 percent of other black students and 7.3 percent of white students.

Bennett and Lutz investigated whether the immigrant population could be driving blacks’ relatively higher odds of college enrollment compared to those of similar whites, particularly in light of high levels of educational attainment among the adult black immigrant population.

High levels of educational attainment are but one of several factors that make black immigrants one of the most interesting groups at the intersection of race and immigration in the United States today, the researchers say. While America’s identity has been shaped by its immigrant-achievement narrative, in which newcomers are historically incorporated into the culture, black immigrants are also affected by the country’s historical racial hierarchy.

Differentiating between immigrant and native-born blacks revealed that immigrant blacks have the highest college attendance rate (75.1 percent), followed by whites (72.5 percent) and native-born blacks (60.2 percent). To examine possible explanations for these race and nativity gaps, Bennett and Lutz compared immigrant blacks to native-born blacks and whites to see what background characteristics the groups have in common.

The sociologists found that both groups of blacks were disadvantaged relative to whites in socioeconomic background, yet the educational experiences of immigrant blacks are more closely aligned with those of whites than native blacks. Immigrant black and white children are more likely than native black children to come from two-parent households and to attend private schools, two factors that have been shown to have a positive impact on attending an elite college.

Findings reveal that if immigrant blacks and whites were able to bring the same social and economic resources to the college-going process, immigrant blacks would be 3.9 times more likely than whites to attend four-year colleges and 17 times more likely than whites to attend selective colleges. Similarly, if native-born blacks and whites had similar social and economic resources, native-born blacks would be 2.9 times more likely than whites to attend four-year colleges and 3.7 times more likely than whites to attend selective colleges. In contrast to concerns that immigrant blacks may be outperforming native-born blacks due to cultural differences with respect to college attendance, the authors found no significant differences in the chances of enrolling in college between immigrant and native-born blacks from similar socioeconomic backgrounds.

“Our study shows that much of what prevents native-born black students from attending college can be found in disadvantages in their family socioeconomic background,” Bennett said. “Were it not for those disadvantages, we would very likely observe proportionately more black high school graduates than white graduates attending college.

“As we strive to achieve President Obama’s goal of leading the world in college graduates by 2020,” she said, “we can ensure that native black students are part of that progress by investing more federal resources in narrowing gaps in the family social and economic resources that native blacks and whites bring to the college-going process. Current proposals to expand the Pell Grant Program, if passed, along with a shift in student aid packages for low-income families from loans to grants would likely disproportionately assist black students with paying for college and contribute to a narrowing of the race gap in college attendance.”

“In thinking about the lower college enrollment rates of native-born blacks compared to their white and immigrant peers, researchers and the public often turn to the popular explanation that native-born black youth maintain a cultural stance that devalues higher education,” Lutz said. “However, the results of our research highlight the need to pay greater attention to the structural inequalities faced by native-born black students. In particular, we should think about the kinds of educational needs that native-born black youth from single-parent families and from public schools encounter, and which are perhaps not being met, as these youth complete high school.

“For example,” she continued, “one such need is a greater emphasis on college preparation in public schools, starting as early as middle school. Such preparation should include information about course work to prepare for college, counseling on the variety of college options available to students, assistance with filling out college applications and financial aid forms, preparation for college interviews and entrance exams, and better linkages between public school counselors and colleges and universities.

“This type of high-quality preparation for college is usually less available to public school students than private school students,” she said, “and single parents often have a limited amount of time and financial resources to pursue this with their children on their own. Because higher education is so important for the future of the United States, it is critical that all students have the best information about, and preparation for, the college-going process.”

Published by the journal Sociology of Education, Bennett and Lutz’s study, “How African-American Is the Net Black Advantage? Differences in College Attendance Among Immigrant Blacks, Native Blacks and Whites,” puts a finer point on previous, well-known studies that demonstrated that black high school graduates are more likely to attend college than white high school graduates with similar socioeconomic backgrounds.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Hail Ming!

[Karee 4,191]

What I was talking about earlier - this is an example of it.

I get that you are frustrated by something that you don't understand, but rather than try to increase your understanding you start throwing out arguments that lean towards the bigoted side of the fence.

I'd suggest it might be better to try and find the answer to your questions, before you dole out judgement.

What exactly makes you an authority on this? What makes you have some kind of understanding that I do not?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

An authority on what? Reading a slew of poorly conceived argument full of preconceived prejudice? It's not really that difficult.

You responded to this:

I don't believe anyone would disagree with that.

Chances are none of us here had anything to do with that, and that really isn't the point. The issue is that all of us here have to deal with the consequences of generations past.

The misunderstanding which is used as a red herring by many is not that you should feel guilty, so much as you should be able to recognize that through no fault of yours an entire class of Americans were denied many of the opportunities we always took for granted.

It would be ludicrous to demand anyone to be held responsible for what happened in the past at this point, but we are responsible for what happens in the future. Just because our ancestors got it wrong, it doesn't mean we need to shrug it off as though it doesn't affect us today. Just because a law was enacted in the 60's it doesn't mean the playing field was leveled to everyone, because it wasn't. As a simple matter of moral honesty none of us can really keep a straight face and say that black Americans today have no reason not to be on the same level as their white counterparts.

With this:

When black Americans start taking some ownership of the reasons they are not where they are today, instead of playing the race card when things don't work out for them, then maybe there will be progress. Not only that, but there have been countless social programs over the years to help black folks out, yet they still have the same percentage of folks blow the poverty line that they did 30-40 years ago. Why is it that immigrants that come here ( a lot not even knowing the language) seem to do well? Some of it probably has to do with the fact that they don't feel like they are owed something for things that occurred before they were born.

This racial sense of entitlement is part of the problem, and some of the self proclaimed black leaders of today have no problem feeding that sense of entitlement.

At a stroke you have completely ignored the premise put out by the person you are responding to, throwing in a load of loaded language and making a series of statements that appear to suggest that you think there's something fundamentally wrong with black Americans.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Hail Ming!

[Karee 4,191]

An authority on what? Reading a slew of poorly conceived argument full of preconceived prejudice? It's not really that difficult.

Ok that's what I thought.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Ok that's what I thought.

You asked...

[Merrytooth 5,748]

Here's a possible answer for you:

How much of the federal resources are the native black people receiving, compare to other minorities in US?

Are other minorities not doing well too?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Is it really so difficult to accept the idea that past injustices visited upon black Americans are the original reason for the race/class divide in the USA?

Why does that make people angry?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

How much of the federal resources are the native black people receiving, compare to other minorities in US?

Are other minorities not doing well too?

I don't know. What do you think?

[Karee 4,191]

An authority on what? Reading a slew of poorly conceived argument full of preconceived prejudice? It's not really that difficult.

You responded to this:

With this:

At a stroke you have completely ignored the premise put out by the person you are responding to, throwing in a load of loaded language and making a series of statements that appear to suggest that you think there's something fundamentally wrong with black Americans.

I like that "appear to suggest" Say something without actually saying it. I hope you don't mind if I use that in future debates.

I don't think there's anything wrong with black Americans at all. Sorry you're not seeing that. The problem I have is that racism gives people an excuse to not take responsibility for their own actions. And it's not just racism, it's all kinds of things with ALL different races. Half my family is on some kind of govt. assistance, and it's always someone elses fault they're in the mess they're in. If they were black, they'd probably throw that out there as well. As I've stated about 1000 times here, I'm not saying racism doesn't exist, but it's thrown around here like if there was no racism, that black people would be on par with all other races socially, financially etc. The sooner people stop blaming their problems on racism, the better off they'll be. It's a crutch that holds them back.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Thanks for clarifying.

I agree that people shouldn't use racism to excuse their own bad behaviour.

However, that's very different to recognising that black Americans (along with Native Americans) are at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder as the direct result of past oppressions. That a kid who ends up in a gang and on death row by the age of 21 could have ended up very different if they weren't born in those circumstances.

Recognising that doesn't require anyone to give anyone a pass for committing murder etc. only that social problems affect social outcomes.

[Karee 4,191]

Thanks for clarifying.

I agree that people shouldn't use racism to excuse their own bad behaviour.

However, that's very different to recognising that black Americans (along with Native Americans) are at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder as the direct result of past oppressions. That a kid who ends up in a gang and on death row by the age of 21 could have ended up very different if they weren't born in those circumstances.

Recognising that doesn't require anyone to give anyone a pass for committing murder etc. only that social problems affect social outcomes.

Both of those groups are at the bottom of the economic scale and are also the most dependent on govt. assistance. That's what needs to be fixed. Giving people money for doing nothing is hurting these folks, not helping them. Lots of nationalities. races, ethnic groups what have you have gotten raw deals over time. Black folks in America definitely got a raw deal, as did native Americans. So did Jews in Germany etc. etc. I'm not saying just forget about those injustices and move on. I'm saying the past is the past, and it can't be changed. You can sit around and blame your lot in life on things that happened 50 years ago and just get by, or you can move on and try to make a better life for yourself.

I disagree with you that it's a direct result of past oppressions. It's becoming an excuse and a crutch more than a direct result.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Both of those groups are at the bottom of the economic scale and are also the most dependent on govt. assistance. That's what needs to be fixed. Giving people money for doing nothing is hurting these folks, not helping them. Lots of nationalities. races, ethnic groups what have you have gotten raw deals over time. Black folks in America definitely got a raw deal, as did native Americans. So did Jews in Germany etc. etc. I'm not saying just forget about those injustices and move on. I'm saying the past is the past, and it can't be changed. You can sit around and blame your lot in life on things that happened 50 years ago and just get by, or you can move on and try to make a better life for yourself.

I disagree with you that it's a direct result of past oppressions. It's becoming an excuse and a crutch more than a direct result.

The race/class divide is entirely the result of the racism of the past - that's pretty undeniable imo.

You think that (racism) is used as an excuse for a person's bad behaviour or personal failures. I agree, but that's different.

On the bolded, I agree that a person can move on and improve their situation. The caveat there however is that difficult circumstances don't lend themselves to positive outcomes. If you grew up in poverty, come from a broken family and see you friends and peers turn to crime - the odds of you getting out of that, while not impossible, are certainly stacked against you.