It's the (Tanking) Economy, Stupid

[mmmbop1976 1]

Gary, sorry I couldn't respond earlier...

It's not bashing corporations - it's calling a spade a spade. If corporate profits are at a 40 year high, then why are wages at a nearly 60 year low? I've asked this question before - what are corporations doing today, and in particular CEO's, that make it reasonable to you for their chunk of the pie to be bigger, while employees' slice of the pie has gotten smaller?

I understand why we get into these arguments - you believe that our economy should be driven entirely by a free market. You believe that a free market by nature works to the benefit of all. I, on the other hand believe that a free market only works when it is fair and it is only fair when the government acts as a referee to ensure that all the teams and players are abiding by the rules. I keep using the analogy of the NFL because I think it is a perfect example. Can you imagine what kind of season of football we'd have if the NFL got rid of the ref's? Or even the rulebook? Competition does bring out the best but it also can bring out the worst - some will lie, cheat and steal just to beat out the competition and corporations are no exception. As I've said before, I don't think corporations are evil, they have no soul - they operate for the sole purpose of it's benficiaries.

steve, one of your problems is that you assume that the pie is the same size, it's not. even a smaller slice of todays pie is bigger than the bigger slice of the pie from 40 years ago. if you want to have an even bigger slice of the pie, buy some stock in those corporations making the profit. stop being so hung up on who's trying to screw you and take care of yourself. you sound so paranoid.

second, the tone of your posts (and from liberals in general, not saying your one, but this is one thing you do have in common), is that any corporation making a large profit is evil. even though you say specifically in your post that you don't think they are evil, the rest of the tone of your posts suggests differently. sure there are some unethical, evil corporations, enron comes to mind, but what made enron evil was the few evil people at the top. there are bad people that make corporations bad. but by and large, people are good, and so are corporations by and large good. most corporations use their profits to reinvest in their business, if you don't your competitors will pass you by and you'll quickly become a failing business. you hear a few stories on the news about some ceo gettting a big wage for leading a faltering company, but those are just a very very small percentage of ceo's and companies in this country. it's just that bad news is what get's reported. you could do stories for days on end about good ceo's from good companies being socially responsible in their communities. because all good corporations understand that their number one asset is their people.

as for your analogy of football, well, yes there is some role for government in all this, but a small role. you seem to think that if any corporation is making a good profit then it must be that somebody is getting screwed at the bottom and the government should step and take those profits and give it to the little guy. well, just sounds like envy to me. (and socialism)

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Gary, sorry I couldn't respond earlier...

It's not bashing corporations - it's calling a spade a spade. If corporate profits are at a 40 year high, then why are wages at a nearly 60 year low? I've asked this question before - what are corporations doing today, and in particular CEO's, that make it reasonable to you for their chunk of the pie to be bigger, while employees' slice of the pie has gotten smaller?

I understand why we get into these arguments - you believe that our economy should be driven entirely by a free market. You believe that a free market by nature works to the benefit of all. I, on the other hand believe that a free market only works when it is fair and it is only fair when the government acts as a referee to ensure that all the teams and players are abiding by the rules. I keep using the analogy of the NFL because I think it is a perfect example. Can you imagine what kind of season of football we'd have if the NFL got rid of the ref's? Or even the rulebook? Competition does bring out the best but it also can bring out the worst - some will lie, cheat and steal just to beat out the competition and corporations are no exception. As I've said before, I don't think corporations are evil, they have no soul - they operate for the sole purpose of it's benficiaries.

steve, one of your problems is that you assume that the pie is the same size, it's not. even a smaller slice of todays pie is bigger than the bigger slice of the pie from 40 years ago. if you want to have an even bigger slice of the pie, buy some stock in those corporations making the profit. stop being so hung up on who's trying to screw you and take care of yourself. you sound so paranoid.

second, the tone of your posts (and from liberals in general, not saying your one, but this is one thing you do have in common), is that any corporation making a large profit is evil. even though you say specifically in your post that you don't think they are evil, the rest of the tone of your posts suggests differently. sure there are some unethical, evil corporations, enron comes to mind, but what made enron evil was the few evil people at the top. there are bad people that make corporations bad. but by and large, people are good, and so are corporations by and large good. most corporations use their profits to reinvest in their business, if you don't your competitors will pass you by and you'll quickly become a failing business. you hear a few stories on the news about some ceo gettting a big wage for leading a faltering company, but those are just a very very small percentage of ceo's and companies in this country. it's just that bad news is what get's reported. you could do stories for days on end about good ceo's from good companies being socially responsible in their communities. because all good corporations understand that their number one asset is their people.

as for your analogy of football, well, yes there is some role for government in all this, but a small role. you seem to think that if any corporation is making a good profit then it must be that somebody is getting screwed at the bottom and the government should step and take those profits and give it to the little guy. well, just sounds like envy to me. (and socialism)

If we're using the health insurance industry as an example, the whole industry is geared towards profit at the expense of service - which represents a huge conflict of interest. Evil? I'd say so.

[Heracles 417]

...the share of the GDP that goes to wages and salaries has reached a 59-year low, while the share going to corporate profits is at a 40-year high.

A free market is a misnomer... it assumes that true competition exists, and you're errantly assuming that the job market works that way. It can only work that way when someone is being the referee. Just like you wouldn't expect NFL teams to referee themselves, nor should we expect corporations to regulate themselves.

Having a sustainable economy requires true competition. True competition only exists when all the teams are playing by the same rules.

I don't think there is a quick fix or simply an economic fix. There are a lot of cultural and other problems plaguing and restricting the growth of the US, therefore the growth of the average American.

First things firsts, the illegal immigration issue has to be sorted out. As long as you have people able to enter illegally and work for peanuts in the country, the general living standard will decrease. Decreasing taxes in the upper spectrum is not the issue when you have illegal immigrants and their ‘US employers’ paying the bare minimum or no tax at all.

The other issue is that the future of America, the kids and teens, are being bombarded daily in magazines or from watching TV that you are basically a loser to go to school and work hard and build an honest future for yourself. When considering you can become and athlete, actor or singer and live like a king. The direction kids are pushed by the liberal media in the US is a joke. Kids are not pushed to become doctors, scientists, engineers etc but rather persuaded to worry about what is cool and what is not and how to shake their booty.. Thus, the “like whatever!!” ####### I hear from kids. All the garbage kids see and is permitted in today’s society has lead to kids having absolutely no respect for adults.

The third issue is that the education system is a joke. It's plagued with run down schools, underperforming principal, mile long red-tape bureaucracy and uncooperative parents. The US education system is forcing most of the elite teachers to move into other fields or simply be depressed and feel overwhelmed. In such an environment there is no way a school will produce successful students. Parents also need to bear quite a bit more responsibility for their children’s learning. My old state in Australia is passing laws to reinforce this responsibility on parents.

It just amazes me at how stubborn people in the US have become. Instead of talking ###### like middle eastern and south American nut jobs, how about analyzing and 'learning' from successful countries who are doing things much better...Then again as long as partisan politics continues in this country, the living standard will never ever improve..

If we're using the health insurance industry as an example, the whole industry is geared towards profit at the expense of service - which represents a huge conflict of interest. Evil? I'd say so.

Simply implementing a universal system is not the answer. A bet you a lot of countries with federal health systems are plagued with long waiting lists and an under-performing health system.

The answer could be to implement a hybrid system. A purely universal health system would fail here because there are so many people earning cash money..

[mawilson 2,133]

High house prices are a fact - although apparently not in Australia where every street is Ramsey Street, and a person can own a six bedroom house without a discernable day job

[Heracles 417]

High house prices are a fact - although apparently not in Australia where every street is Ramsey Street, and a person can own a six bedroom house without a discernable day job

PS Melbourne is the most liveable city in the world.

Edited September 14, 2006 by Infidel

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Actually I thought the problem with the media was that it gives kids the idea that they can all be rock musicians and movie stars, regardless of any natural talent or (more importantly) hard work.

Ever wonder why there are so many media-related degree courses? Many of the people stuck in repetitive bad jobs they hate are BA graduates who opted for 'useless' degrees with no serious career path because they assumed it would all 'fall into place'.

Simply implementing a universal system is not the answer. A bet you a lot of countries with federal health systems are plagued with long waiting lists and an under-performing health system.

Some are, the UK system has its problems certainly - but the German (and to a lesser extent, French) systems seem to do ok.

[mawilson 2,133]

where every street is Ramsey Street, and a person can own a six bedroom house without a discernable day job

Didn't everyone work at the coffee shop? There was a clinic there as well

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

where every street is Ramsey Street, and a person can own a six bedroom house without a discernable day job

Didn't everyone work at the coffee shop? There was a clinic there as well

Pretty much - though when it variously burned down and blew up (at least on one occasion that I can recall) it didn't seem to cause any significant unemployment.

There was a doctor's office and a pub - at least there was when I used to watch it.

[mawilson 2,133]

where every street is Ramsey Street, and a person can own a six bedroom house without a discernable day job

Didn't everyone work at the coffee shop? There was a clinic there as well

Pretty much - though when it variously burned down and blew up (at least on one occasion that I can recall) it didn't seem to cause any significant unemployment.

There was a doctor's office and a pub - at least there was when I used to watch it.

Right..... Harold and Madge's coffee shop, Carl's clinic and Lou's pub. No idea what happened there since '99 or so.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

where every street is Ramsey Street, and a person can own a six bedroom house without a discernable day job

Didn't everyone work at the coffee shop? There was a clinic there as well

Pretty much - though when it variously burned down and blew up (at least on one occasion that I can recall) it didn't seem to cause any significant unemployment.

There was a doctor's office and a pub - at least there was when I used to watch it.

Right..... Harold and Madge's coffee shop, Carl's clinic and Lou's pub. No idea what happened there since '99 or so.

I know Madge died. Harold came back after spending 10+ years working for the Salvo's with complete Amnesia. A bit like the Bourne Identity without the shooting and fist-fights. I believe they killed him off though (again). I only watched it to see Helen Daniels (Dracula) get killed off. Had no interest after that - except that the girl that played the Doctor's secretary was extremely sexy. I think the Doc had an affair with her - couldn't blame him really

[one...two...tree 2,762]

...the share of the GDP that goes to wages and salaries has reached a 59-year low, while the share going to corporate profits is at a 40-year high.

A free market is a misnomer... it assumes that true competition exists, and you're errantly assuming that the job market works that way. It can only work that way when someone is being the referee. Just like you wouldn't expect NFL teams to referee themselves, nor should we expect corporations to regulate themselves.

Having a sustainable economy requires true competition. True competition only exists when all the teams are playing by the same rules.

I don't think there is a quick fix or simply an economic fix. There are a lot of cultural and other problems plaguing and restricting the growth of the US, therefore the growth of the average American.

First things firsts, the illegal immigration issue has to be sorted out. As long as you have people able to enter illegally and work for peanuts in the country, the general living standard will decrease. Decreasing taxes in the upper spectrum is not the issue when you have illegal immigrants and their ‘US employers’ paying the bare minimum or no tax at all.

...

It just amazes me at how stubborn people in the US have become. Instead of talking ###### like middle eastern and south American nut jobs, how about analyzing and 'learning' from successful countries who are doing things much better...Then again as long as partisan politics continues in this country, the living standard will never ever improve..

Illegal immigrants aren't what has brought wages and salaries down. That's ludicrous. Job growth has exploded in the service oriented jobs which tend to be low paying jobs - in fact we have more low paying jobs then we have Americans to work them. We aren't producing and manufacturing in the U.S. like we were 40 years ago as most factory jobs have gone overseas and south of the border for cheaper labor. Without a comprehensive plan to protect American jobs, this trend will continue.

Let me ask this to all you free market capitalists...

What will keep U.S. companies here on American soil vs. relocating where ever cheaper labor can be found? And what is our only preventive strategy to keep U.S. companies here? If profit is the sole driving factor in the free market system, how do you balance the incessant pursuit of business to always be looking for cheaper labor?

Edited September 14, 2006 by Steven_and_Jinky

[mawilson 2,133]

I know Madge died. Harold came back after spending 10+ years working for the Salvo's with complete Amnesia. A bit like the Bourne Identity without the shooting and fist-fights. I believe they killed him off though (again). I only watched it to see Helen Daniels (Dracula) get killed off. Had no interest after that - except that the girl that played the Doctor's secretary was extremely sexy. I think the Doc had an affair with her - couldn't blame him really

Madge died?

I remember when Harold came back and Helen died.

The Doc's secretary = Sarah? Yep, she was niiice

Obviously, Billy Kennedy has left the show (he's now one of the docs in "House, MD" with Hugh Laurie)

I wonder what happened to Billy's girlfriend Ann and Lance Wilkinson....

Also Libby + that mechanic - did they end up together?

[mmmbop1976 1]

Considering George only recently realised that "more of our imports are coming from overseas", I'm not surprised.

ha ha ha...i bet u had a smug smirk on your face when you posted this...news flash....we have a lot of imports that come from mexico and canada...check your globe, that's not overseas

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Considering George only recently realised that "more of our imports are coming from overseas", I'm not surprised.

ha ha ha...i bet u had a smug smirk on your face when you posted this...news flash....we have a lot of imports that come from mexico and canada...check your globe, that's not overseas

'Overseas' is usually used to mean 'foreign'.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Considering George only recently realised that "more of our imports are coming from overseas", I'm not surprised.

ha ha ha...i bet u had a smug smirk on your face when you posted this...news flash....we have a lot of imports that come from mexico and canada...check your globe, that's not overseas

Geographically sure, but I hope you're not suggesting that road hauliers bring in more goods to the continental US than commercial shipping… I think you'll find that isn't quite true.