Mexicans seething over Border Patrol killing of teen

[Heracles 417]

Walls don't solve the problem.

My firewall seems to work well and keep people out. No different to a decent border wall.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Booyah!

[The_Dude 1,142]

The walls back then were used to keep foreign armies out or people in. This wall is to keep individuals out, who clearly don't grasp, not their country. Precast reinforced concrete is actually very strong. Furthermore, is working extremely well for Israel and they have rockets fired at it. Now combine that with modern technology and you pretty much have an impenetrable border.

Good luck trying to pass this:

Again BY, you're living in a fantasy world. Yes, that is a great design for a wall. But you are missing an essential component here. We don't have the funds, or personnel to properly patrol that sort of wall, thus rendering it a speedbump. You are being quite dense about this BY. This is a bandaid fix to a much larger problem. Address the problem, not just the symptoms.

Impose massive fines for hiring illegals, and mandate e-verify. You will see a massive drop in illegal immigrants once they implement verification measures for both current and incoming employees. I think you would have to couple this with a shut off of non-emergency services (i.e. police and hospital) for illegals as well. You won't need a wall at that point. If you eliminate the reason for them coming here, you actually address the problem.

[Heracles 417]

Again BY, you're living in a fantasy world. Yes, that is a great design for a wall. But you are missing an essential component here. We don't have the funds, or personnel to properly patrol that sort of wall, thus rendering it a speedbump. You are being quite dense about this BY. This is a bandaid fix to a much larger problem. Address the problem, not just the symptoms.

Impose massive fines for hiring illegals, and mandate e-verify. You will see a massive drop in illegal immigrants once they implement verification measures for both current and incoming employees. I think you would have to couple this with a shut off of non-emergency services (i.e. police and hospital) for illegals as well. You won't need a wall at that point. If you eliminate the reason for them coming here, you actually address the problem.

There will always be a need for them to come here. After all, many are living in third world conditions in Mexico. It's amazing but expected, hello war on drugs, that you think one tactic will fix this. In the beginning, you need to fire everything you have at the problem to squeeze it. Nothing is stopping them from coming in by the thousands and then protesting and demanding rights and benefits. After all, the media would have a field day showing these poor Mexicans going hungry because they cannot get a job. Come on Rob, I know you are smart enough to know how the game is played in the US.

Billions upon billions are spent each year by America on illegals, therefore, the cost of the wall in the long-term will be an investment. Heck, $23 billion alone is remitted back to Mexico from them.

You are clearly against the wall because of idealistic reasons rather than logical ones. An adequate wall, like any wall, would keep people out. I mean a proper wall, not some wall that anyone with a ladder can scale*. That wall then needs to be manned, if anything using virtual surveillance. Naturally, this wall will be constructed at the same time as employment reform would take place, as would reform against being able to use US government services without any status check.

* Refer to my posts a while back of Google shots of the border from within Mexico.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Booyah!

[The_Dude 1,142]

There will always be a need for them to come here. After all, many are living in third world conditions in Mexico. It's amazing but expected, hello war on drugs, that you think one tactic will fix this. In the beginning, you need to fire everything you have at the problem to squeeze it. Nothing is stopping them from coming in by the thousands and then protesting and demanding rights and benefits. After all, the media would have a field day showing these poor Mexicans going hungry because they cannot get a job. Come on Rob, I know you are smart enough to know how the game is played in the US.

Billions upon billions are spent each year by America on illegals, therefore, the cost of the wall in the long-term will be an investment. Heck, $23 billion alone is remitted back to Mexico from them.

You are clearly against the wall because of idealistic reasons rather than logical ones. An adequate wall, like any wall, would keep people out. I mean a proper wall, not some wall that anyone with a ladder can scale*. That wall then needs to be manned, if anything using virtual surveillance. Naturally, this wall will be constructed at the same time as employment reform would take place, as would reform against being able to use US government services without any status check.

* Refer to my posts a while back of Google shots of the border from within Mexico.

That is why they come here, to work, and send remitances back home. If that number were zero, there would be vastly fewer remaining here. I am not opposed to a wall for idealistic reasons. I am opposed to it because it is an inept idea, a reactionary plan that won't do anything but make it more difficult for them to get here. It does nothing to address the root of the problem.

Maybe we should copy Australia and dig a giant moat at our borders.Their natural barriers seem to work wonders for them. Fill it with salt water, and add a bit of blood so that the sharks attack anything that sets foot into the moat that delineates our border. On the northern border, we could use the natural water from the Great Lakes to creat a moat along our northern border. Now, I do realize that sharks are a salt water creature, so they would not be of any use there. We would need to breed hundreds of millions of pirranha's then to fill the void. Sound absurd? It's only slightly more absurd than your simplistic idea of a wall to cure illegal immigration.

[Heracles 417]

That is why they come here, to work, and send remitances back home. If that number were zero, there would be vastly fewer remaining here. I am not opposed to a wall for idealistic reasons. I am opposed to it because it is an inept idea, a reactionary plan that won't do anything but make it more difficult for them to get here. It does nothing to address the root of the problem.

Actually, that refers to the billions upon billions spent on services and incarceration of illegal aliens for non-immigration based crime. Money that America and those 60,000,000 citizens of yours living in poverty desperately need invested on them. The $23 billion was on top of that.

The root of the problem is Mexico and their system of government, their leaders, their laws and so forth. America cannot fix that nor should fix that. Then what? Do you just sit there with your thumb up your azz, while illegals pour into this country and drain your state even further? Perhaps your mindset will change when you or your spouse end up a victim of some MS13 or their equivalent; which plague America.

The mindset of some of you is akin to saying why bother with a firewall on a PC. After all, we have to deal with why people are hacking right? ####### sort of horseshit mentality is that?

Edited June 11, 2010 by Booyah!

[The_Dude 1,142]

Actually, that refers to the billions upon billions spent on services and incarceration of illegal aliens for non-immigration based crime. Money that America and those 60,000,000 citizens of yours living in poverty desperately need invested on them. The $23 billion was on top of that.

The root of the problem is Mexico and their system of government, their leaders, their laws and so forth. America cannot fix that nor should fix that. Then what? Do you just sit there with your thumb up your azz, while illegals pour into this country and drain your state even further? Perhaps your mindset will change when you or your spouse end up a victim of some MS13 or their equivalent; which plague America.

The mindset of some of you is akin to saying why bother with a firewall on a PC. After all, we have to deal with why people are hacking right? ####### sort of horseshit mentality is that?

BY, there are already enforcement mechanisms for dealing with the dedicated criminals like MS13. However, ICE is so poorly funded that you don't see nearly as many deportations of criminals.

I will agree that the root of the problem is Mexico's laws, and economy. There just aren't enough good paying jobs there, hence why so many flock to the U.S.. I will also agree that there is little to nothing that we can do to affect any change in that. But, if you make it impossible for them to work here, you eliminate any reason for a vast majority to come here. The remaining illegal immigrants will not have access to most services, and no way to earn a decent wage. Building a wall, without addressing the economic incentive that the illegals are drawn to does absolutely nothing to address the problem. Enact legislation that lays down fines on people who hire illegal immigrants, and madate e-verify FIRST AND FOREMOST.

[Heracles 417]

BY, there are already enforcement mechanisms for dealing with the dedicated criminals like MS13. However, ICE is so poorly funded that you don't see nearly as many deportations of criminals.

I will agree that the root of the problem is Mexico's laws, and economy. There just aren't enough good paying jobs there, hence why so many flock to the U.S.. I will also agree that there is little to nothing that we can do to affect any change in that. But, if you make it impossible for them to work here, you eliminate any reason for a vast majority to come here. The remaining illegal immigrants will not have access to most services, and no way to earn a decent wage. Building a wall, without addressing the economic incentive that the illegals are drawn to does absolutely nothing to address the problem. Enact legislation that lays down fines on people who hire illegal immigrants, and madate e-verify FIRST AND FOREMOST.

I am not denying employment is a good reason they come here but you seem to ignore that it's impractical and destined for failure if you are going to rely on this alone. You simply don't have the resources or manpower to monitor 25,000,000 American businesses and that excludes contractors. Furthermore, the biggest incentive to come here is not employment, it's the fact that the second an illegal alien has a child here, they automatically become a full citizen. Basically their child acquires the same privileges as a child of a parent who was naturalized or born here. Over 300,000 such babies are born here each and every year. One guess who pays for their birth and upbringing? Yep, like it or not, uncle Bill and Rob here.

Now on the gangs front, little is being achieved as you have a Constitution that literally protects the rights of these lowlife gangs. Sure as heck doesn't protect the rights of a minority to live free of harm [or fear] in their own home or community, but does protect the right of these gang bangers. The few measures available then have the eye-rolling profiling argument to overcome. After all, you are not renowned abroad as the United States of Crime for nothing.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Booyah!

[The_Dude 1,142]

I am not denying employment is a good reason they come here but you seem to ignore that it's impractical and destined for failure if you are going to rely on this alone. You simply don't have the resources or manpower to monitor 25,000,000 American businesses and that excludes contractors. Furthermore, the biggest incentive to come here is not employment, it's the fact that the second an illegal alien has a child here, they automatically become a full citizen. Basically their child acquires the same privileges as a child of a parent who was naturalized or born here. Over 300,000 such babies are born here each and every year. One guess who pays for their birth and upbringing? Yep, like it or not, uncle Bill and Rob here.

Now on the gangs front, little is being achieved as you have a Constitution that literally protects the rights of these lowlife gangs. Sure as heck doesn't protect the rights of a minority to live free of harm [or fear] in their own home or community, but does protect the right of these gang bangers. The few measures available then have the eye-rolling profiling argument to overcome. After all, you are not renowned abroad as the United States of Crime for nothing.

BY, in one single post, you demonstrate how little you know about any of the subject matters you attempt to address. First and foremost, employment is the reason they come here. Secondly, do you know how e-verify works? It's quite simple, and would work wonders if it were mandated. Yes, it would require more personnel at ICE to do checks on business' to make sure that everyone employed there has been checked through e-verify. I am not a fan of citizenship imbued by birth. So I won't argue that point. I think it should have to be applied for by every single child in this nation.

On the gang front, Gangs DO NOT have all the same rights, at least not if they have been convicted of certain crimes. California enacted legislation several years ago that was essentially enhanced probation for convicted gang members. They are deprived of the right to free assembly as well as the right to bear arms. They are however afforded the right to due process.

[Heracles 417]

BY, in one single post, you demonstrate how little you know about any of the subject matters you attempt to address. First and foremost, employment is the reason they come here. Secondly, do you know how e-verify works? It's quite simple, and would work wonders if it were mandated. Yes, it would require more personnel at ICE to do checks on business' to make sure that everyone employed there has been checked through e-verify. I am not a fan of citizenship imbued by birth. So I won't argue that point. I think it should have to be applied for by every single child in this nation.

On the gang front, Gangs DO NOT have all the same rights, at least not if they have been convicted of certain crimes. California enacted legislation several years ago that was essentially enhanced probation for convicted gang members. They are deprived of the right to free assembly as well as the right to bear arms. They are however afforded the right to due process.

Actually, you make the false assumption that they are paid legitimately. A good portion of illegal aliens are paid under the table. No-Id, no e-verify etc. You think the guy mowing our lawns had to produce ID? E-Verify along with showing a US passport or PR card is more than enough for employment verification. However, e-verify is not mandatory and current US laws prohibit asking for detailed ID.

The gang bangers do have rights and protection, because the Constitution irrationally protects their freedom. As such, good like trying to catch them. Heck, you even have organizations [hello ALCU] that protect them and pedophiles over so-called unfair questioning. Why do you think no other first world country has anywhere near the equivalent gang problem? I have also never heard of families living in fear of being shot at night in any Aussie neighborhoods - having to move to the center of their house to avoid stray bullets. Is this Sudan?

Each country has a choice, freedom to talk ###### is evidently more important here than freedom to be literally free; particularly free from bodily harm, kidnapped, raped shot, locked in someone's basement etc etc. I regret to inform you, the majority of the first world has chosen the latter.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Booyah!

[The_Dude 1,142]

Actually, you make the false assumption that they are paid legitimately. A good portion of illegal aliens are paid under the table. No-Id, no e-verify etc. You think the guy mowing our lawns had to produce ID? E-Verify along with showing a US passport or PR card is more than enough for employment verification. However, e-verify is not mandatory and current US laws prohibit asking for detailed ID.

The gang bangers do have rights and protection, because the Constitution irrationally protects their freedom. As such, good like trying to catch them. Heck, you even have organizations [hello ALCU] that protect them and pedophiles over so-called unfair questioning. Why do you think no other first world country has anywhere near the equivalent gang problem? I have also never heard of families living in fear of being shot at night in any Aussie neighborhoods - having to move to the center of their house to avoid stray bullets. Is this Sudan?

Each country has a choice, freedom to talk ###### is evidently more important here than freedom to be literally free; particularly free from bodily harm, kidnapped, raped shot, locked in someone's basement etc etc. I regret to inform you, the majority of the first world has chosen the latter.

BY, don't take this as an insult, but in this case, you are being quite ignorant about gangs. Look up the gang laws in California and Colorado.

[HappyKnappy 30]

I am not denying employment is a good reason they come here but you seem to ignore that it's impractical and destined for failure if you are going to rely on this alone. You simply don't have the resources or manpower to monitor 25,000,000 American businesses and that excludes contractors.

Furthermore, the biggest incentive to come here is not employment, it's the fact that the second an illegal alien has a child here, they automatically become a full citizen. Basically their child acquires the same privileges as a child of a parent who was naturalized or born here. Over 300,000 such babies are born here each and every year. One guess who pays for their birth and upbringing? Yep, like it or not, uncle Bill and Rob here.

You have just shot yourself in the foot, Einstein... Let's take it in order. You think that it is very practical to build a 2000 mile wall, that will cost billions that the government does not have? You may want to watch what you say, because with the way things are, or how you want them, the US flag will have more red than white and blue... BUT if you make every employer verify their people's authorization to work, which by the way, would be very easy to trace when it's tax time, you could erradicate the problem.

I know even you can do the math, if the government is able to send a squad to your home when you say "Jihad", I am sure they can audit ramdomly to ensure employers' records are clean. Also, when you file your taxes, you as an employer should declare employee number, and prove their legal ability to work upon immediate request. Can you grasp that one can still work illegally regardless of a wall? Think about it, I could work illegally in the States, I entered legally but without permission to work. Now, if my employer (theoretically) risks getting stuck with a fine that will not allow him/her to take a vacation in 10 years or retire anytime soon, he/she will think about it twice out of fear.

Are you aware that most of all the immigrants are males that send money to their families abroad? Maybe in Australia, but as far as I know, only women are capable of having babies. That fact alone proves you are dead wrong on the main incentive to come to the States.