I'm "African American"

[DJ and BJ 0]

I just think it's complete and utter BS that someone can start a business, from scratch and with hard work. Then later the government gets to tell this person who he should hire at the exclusion of others. complete and utter BS, racist and wrong. There is opportunity for everyone to start their own damn businesses and decide for themselves who they want to hire, whether from their own clan or not.

That's your opinion and I value it, thanks. You're more than welcome to add to the discussion, perhaps without having to throw out personal insults?

The insults started long before I entered this thread...all of the things that this dumb #### thread is implying about minorities in general is a damn travesty.

Now try this on, because its truly meant to be insulting;

The United States would be better off without another dumb #### broad/dude joining the ranks of the many that we already have. IF you don't like the policies of this country, keep your ignorant African #### in Africa with the rest of the ignorant #### 'Africans' that you are spewing so much hate about...

Yeah...I said it..

[FortLaudy 10]

The insults started long before I entered this thread...all of the things that this dumb #### thread is implying about minorities in general is a damn travesty.

Now try this on, because its truly meant to be insulting;

The United States would be better off without another dumb #### broad/dude joining the ranks of the many that we already have. IF you don't like the policies of this country, keep your ignorant African #### in Africa with the rest of the ignorant #### 'Africans' that you are spewing so much hate about...

Yeah...I said it..

Africans I spew hate about? quotes please.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I said...eliminate the NEED for welfare. Leave to a racist to twist the words and ignore the message to help people with education and press ahead with the current racist agenda

Leave it to someone who twists words to complain about others twisting theirs.

Nothing you said above would eliminate the need for welfare, making it education based without addressing issues in the education system would do little more than widen the gap between the rich and enabled and the poor and disenfranchised (at best).

[The_Dude 1,142]

Those are still businesses that were started by someone or a group with a bit of brains and work ethic, and I still say, anyone can do it and then decide, FOR THEMSELVES, who to hire, it should be none of the governments' business.

I guess life isn't fair is it? so what.

So are you going to pay taxes to start a fund for startup capital so EVERYONE regardless of color, religion, sex, or sexual orientation can start their own business? You can't just say "i'm going to start my own business" and poof there it is. Sorry, starting you're own business is just not as easy as knowing what you want to do and working hard.

[Peikko 1,575]

Besides which, if you do start up your own company, you can hire whoever you like based on whatever criteria you like. The government has no interest in small business unless it openly does something illegal.

[FortLaudy 10]

So are you going to pay taxes to start a fund for startup capital so EVERYONE regardless of color, religion, sex, or sexual orientation can start their own business? You can't just say "i'm going to start my own business" and poof there it is. Sorry, starting you're own business is just not as easy as knowing what you want to do and working hard.

But people do it, and have done it, shall we blame slavery for every other business success story in the world?

[FortLaudy 10]

Besides which, if you do start up your own company, you can hire whoever you like based on whatever criteria you like. The government has no interest in small business unless it openly does something illegal.

Any size business/company was started at some point by an individual or group of individuals and then grew or remained small, right? So why does the government with Affirmative Action get to tell anyone, no matter what size company, who to hire? It is wrong no matter which way you look at it.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

But people do it, and have done it, shall we blame slavery for every other business success story in the world?

So what? In terms of employment, Affirmative Action is only an issue for the government or big companies.

Any size business/company was started at some point by an individual or group of individuals and then grew or remained small, right? So why does the government with Affirmative Action get to tell anyone, no matter what size company, who to hire? It is wrong no matter which way you look at it.

Oh FFS, Shani - we're not talking about a bloody small business someone started up in their garage. We're talking about people who want a government or a corporate job - and the perception that a heavily skewed workforce amounts to something prejudicial within their hiring procedures.

[FortLaudy 10]

So what? In terms of employment, Affirmative Action is only an issue for the government or big companies.

Started from an individual or group of individuals with a bit of brains and work ethic... agreed?

Why does it matter that the company grew big instead of staying small? Nobody should be able to tell a business who to hire. period.

You don't like it, go and invent something and start your own business and make it grow as big as you can, then someone can tell you who to hire...

[Peikko 1,575]

Any size business/company was started at some point by an individual or group of individuals and then grew or remained small, right? So why does the government with Affirmative Action get to tell anyone, no matter what size company, who to hire? It is wrong no matter which way you look at it.

They don't get to say who they can/must hire, all they can do is require the company to take into account the reality that the USA is a diverse community during their hiring process.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[FortLaudy 10]

Oh FFS, Shani - we're not talking about a bloody small business

so cute I'm just messing with ya

They don't get to say who they can hire, all they can do is require the company to take into account the reality that the USA is a diverse community during their hiring process.

And anyone within that diverse community can apply for the job, if they're the better candidate they'll surely get the job. That's a no-brainer, right?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Started from an individual or group of individuals with a bit of brains and work ethic... agreed?

Why does it matter that the company grew big instead of staying small? Nobody should be able to tell a business who to hire. period.

You don't like it, go and invent something and start your own business and make it grow as big as you can, then someone can tell you who to hire...

Erm... Because an organization that hires thousands of people has different responsibilities to "John Doe Window-washer and Sons".

And anyone within that diverse community can apply for the job, if they're the better candidate they'll surely get the job. That's a no-brainer, right?

A lot goes into determining who is the "better" candidate. You act like it follows some scientific process.

[Peikko 1,575]

so cute I'm just messing with ya

And anyone within that diverse community can apply for the job, if they're the better candidate they'll surely get the job. That's a no-brainer, right?

As you know, that's not necessarily true. There is rarely one 'best' candidate. On paper most candidates for professional positions will appear to be similar (at least those who get past the initial screening process). The remaining candidates are interviewed to see who would 'fit into' the company best. If every time the 'best fit' is a 'white male' the company doesn't reflect the multi-cultural, two gendered society within which it is operating and one can certainly question the process by which 'best fit' is determined.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[FortLaudy 10]

Erm... Because an organization that hires thousands of people has different responsibilities to "John Doe Window-washer and Sons".

that's your opinion, the ones that have more should give more right, spread the wealth or something like that?

People should be hired based on merit, nothing else.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Lets backtrack to that passage from Wikipedia you posted a few pages back - where is stated quite clearly that Affirmative Action does not only focus on race, but things like gender, sexuality and people with disabilities. Hell, there are even Affirmative Action policies for military veterans.

There is nothing inherently racist about Affirmative Action, the ways in which it is implemented however are another thing. Personally, I think the only way one can make fair criticism of these policies is on a case by case basis of specific policies, rather than some generalized philosophical argument.

Nothing suggested above amounts to "eliminating the need for welfare". What it does amount to is making value judgements on individuals seeking it.

I specifically spoke of eliminating the need for welfare by requiring education for young people. You are aginst education for young people? welfare will never go away until we eliminate the NEED for it. Just like illegal aliens will never go away until we eliminate the economic incentive for them to be here. You can build fences, have amnesty, whatever, it does not matter. If there is an economic demand for illegal aliens, they will be here. Period. Welfare is an economic reality. The people who are generational welfare receivers simply cannot make as much as they get from welfare in any job they can qulaify for because their education SUCKS because no one ever encouraged or required them to get an education. Highly educated people simply are not on welfare for multiple generations. the two conditions are mutually exclusive, completely and without exception. People on welfare in my state collect more than $700 per week in benefits and cash for a family of three. So how, exactly, does an un-wed mother of two children who dropped out of high school make $700 per week (after tax!!!!) and THEN have to pay for medical insurance, deductibles, co-pays which she gets now free? She needs to earn something like $1200 per week GROSS to match that and cover her deductions for medical insurance. How can she do that? It isn't possible, not even in her wildest dreams. How does a person like that get a job paying $62,400 per year? Given the circumstances the SYSTEM put her in, welfare is the BEST she can do! We have institutionalized welfare slaves and thrown an economic noose around a couple million people. Like I said, the KKK never had so much absolute control of so many people. If you manhandled a woman like that in Alabama they would call it RAPE!

The way to END welfare is to end the NEED for welfare. The way to end the NEED for welfare, 100% guaranteed, is to provide education for ALL people and require education for all people. the way to end Affirmative action is to educate people. I would think you would be HAPPY if welfare and affirmative action died for lack of interest...would you not? Wouldn't you be HAPPY if people did not need welfare because they could make much more money and live much better in gainful employment? I believe they can do it with education. I believe they can overcome any obstacle if they have incentive and a path they can see. I believe they can ignore peer pressure if they can look ahead to a a future that is not being on welfare, diabetes, prison, obesity, drug addiction, or being killed in a drive-by at age 17. (you think cheap, addictive crack cocaine and crank was a fluke? A coincidence? That stuff is MAN-MADE, who do think made it? It is another poison to cripple a race and keep them where "they belong")

I believe in people. Racists do not. I say they CAN, racists say they CAN'T. Racists say "give them a hand-out" I say "Give them a hand UP". Racists say "you need us" I say "you don't need anyone but yourself" Racists say "we will feed you and house you and care for you like a pet monkey" I say "I will teach you to feed yourself, build your own house, and care for yourself so you don't need to be anyone's pet"