Turkish girl, 16, 'buried alive by her father because she had friendships with boys'

[NickD 203]

Very good source of Info for anyone interested:

http://www.meforum.org/2067/are-honor-kill...mestic-violence

"Conflict of Cultural Moralities

The problem the West faces is complex. Muslims, Sikhs, and Hindus view honor and morality as a collective family matter. Rights are collective, not individual. Family, clan, and tribal rights supplant individual human rights.[21]

In these groups, intellectuals and elites handicap the absorption of immigrants arriving from countries where honor is a communal virtue. For example, accusations of Islamophobia stymie discussion and policy formulation when policymakers seek to address problems occurring among Muslim immigrants. Still, there are legal interventions underway in Europe, home to between twenty and thirty million Muslim immigrants and their descendents, as opposed to perhaps four million in the United States and Canada.[22] Honor-related violence is, therefore, more visible in Europe than in North America. In 2004, Sweden held an international conference on honor killing, calling for "international cooperation" on the issue. Conference participants concluded:

Violence in the name of honor must be combated as an obstacle to women's enjoyment of human rights. Interpretations of honor as strongly connected with female chastity must be challenged. It can never be accepted that customs, traditions, or religious considerations are invoked to avoid obligations to eradicate violence against women and girls, including violence in the name of honor. Violence against women must be addressed from a rights-based perspective. … Measures should be taken in the areas of legislation, employment, education, and sexual and reproductive health and rights. Respect for women's enjoyment of human rights is intrinsically linked to democracy. International conventions must be incorporated into national legislation.[23]

There have since been local conferences in England, France, and Germany. British law enforcement has begun to hide women in a program equivalent to the U.S. Federal witness protection program.[24] Great Britain has passed legislation to empower police to rescue British female citizens whose families have kidnapped and forcibly married them against their will, usually in Pakistan; the police will return them to Britain if the brides request it. There is a special police unit that deals with the forced, arranged marriages of children.[25] A new movement has also arisen in England, "One Law for All. A Campaign against Shari'a Law in Britain," launched by Maryam Namazie, an advocate opposed to honor killing and other honor-related violence. She has launched this movement to oppose the use of Shari'a courts because they discriminate against women.[26] Additionally, schools in the Netherlands have been asked to be "more alert to honor violence,"[27] following research conducted for the Ministry of Integration."

Besides all that talk and deliberation, should set up a rehabilitation center to get these people off of crack. I don't care about honor, traditions, religion, etc., its against basic human and even most animal nature to kill their own young. Unless they are smoking crack! This is pure unadulterated insanity, no ifs, ands, or butts about it.

[FortLaudy 10]

Besides all that talk and deliberation, should set up a rehabilitation center to get these people off of crack. I don't care about honor, traditions, religion, etc., its against basic human and even most animal nature to kill their own young. Unless they are smoking crack! This is pure unadulterated insanity, no ifs, ands, or butts about it.

Yes, Simpson should go over there and address the crack habit immediately ! also I want the right to have the choice to have 4 husbands or not, Simpson put that on your list of complaints please?

[_Simpson_ 250]

Yes, all I can say is good luck with your efforts, there are some organisations out there trying to make a difference, you can join in I guess, but I do not agree with the "we must do something" statement you made earlier, because to me, sure it's extremely sad to see cases like this, but it's such a common occurrence and it's been like this forever amongst those communities, it's part of a core belief amonst a few extremists and they're doing it to themselves... also there seems to be no remorse or stigma associated with someone who kills for "honor" - more like the person is considered a martyr after the act, so it would be like banging your head up against a brick wall trying to change these people's minds, but yeah good luck, you'll need it.

Well maybe "we" doing something could have saved this girls life. She went to the police dept. several times in fear for her life, if only there would of been more accountability on the part of this dept and 'honor killing' was taken more seriously then maybe something would of been done when this girl showed up to the police dept. I dont think it has to be a case of banging our head against the wall, I believe there is much more we can do.

Well I guess we will agree to disagree, wish I could of changed your mind. Under certain extreme cases as such it is important to demand change and not wait for it to come around, lives could be saved.

Edited February 6, 2010 by _Simpson_

[_Simpson_ 250]

Besides all that talk and deliberation, should set up a rehabilitation center to get these people off of crack. I don't care about honor, traditions, religion, etc., its against basic human and even most animal nature to kill their own young. Unless they are smoking crack! This is pure unadulterated insanity, no ifs, ands, or butts about it.

but only if we had a good healthy debate we could change the minds of these good but misinformed people.

[FortLaudy 10]

"the West is in conflict with Iran because the Islamic Republic opposes the West's attempts to impose its hegemony over the Middle East. "

Hegemony: is the political, economic, ideological or cultural power exerted by a dominant group over other groups, regardless of the explicit consent of the latter.

Wars are created because this type of interference in other people's biz... we have enough of war right now, agreed?

[_Simpson_ 250]

"the West is in conflict with Iran because the Islamic Republic opposes the West's attempts to impose its hegemony over the Middle East. "

Hegemony: is the political, economic, ideological or cultural power exerted by a dominant group over other groups, regardless of the explicit consent of the latter.

Wars are created because this type of interference in other people's biz... we have enough of war right now, agreed?

The matter of the fact is that you are being very black and white about a very complicated issue.

When a child dies in such a cruel manner I think its everybody's "biz". If only we had been all up in Mohamed Atta's "biz" maybe we could of saved a few thousand lives.

[FortLaudy 10]

The matter of the fact is that you are being very black and white about a very complicated issue.

When a child dies in such a cruel manner I think its everybody's "biz". If only we had been all up in Mohamed Atta's "biz" maybe we could of saved a few thousand lives.

That's your belief, I don't believe in such interference. It is the view of Many arab/Muslim countries that Western interference is not wanted nor welcome and further we have been explicitly warned by a crazy little man too: "Iran's Islamic Revolution will continue to oppose the Western interference in the Middle East."

"The Iranian nation opposes the aggressive and arrogant policies of the US government and will stand against them forever,"

So you want to help by changing their minds because we are "better than them". This attitude has Never been affective in history, ever. I say we interfere less and focus our attention and efforts on problems more close to home first...

[_Simpson_ 250]

That's your belief, I don't believe in such interference. It is the view of Many arab/Muslim countries that Western interference is not wanted nor welcome and further we have been explicitly warned by a crazy little man too: "Iran's Islamic Revolution will continue to oppose the Western interference in the Middle East."

"The Iranian nation opposes the aggressive and arrogant policies of the US government and will stand against them forever,"

So you want to help by changing their minds because we are "better than them". This attitude has Never been affective in history, ever. I say we interfere less and focus our attention and efforts on problems more close to home first...

Yes it is my belief that when a child dies in such a cruel manner it becomes everybody "biz".

Iranian nation, you mean that dictatorship over there in the middle east and quite frankly this dictatorship will always see our policies as anything but just and I dont really care what they think, let the country be controlled by the will of the people and then I will start caring what they think about our policies. This last election the world stood by the citizens of Iran as they protested the rigged election and according to your logic we shouldnt have, we need to stay out of other peoples biz.

[FortLaudy 10]

Yes it is my belief that when a child dies in such a cruel manner it becomes everybody "biz".

Iranian nation, you mean that dictatorship over there in the middle east and quite frankly this dictatorship will always see our policies as anything but just and I dont really care what they think, let the country be controlled by the will of the people and then I will start caring what they think about our policies. This last election the world stood by the citizens of Iran as they protested the rigged election and according to your logic we shouldnt have, we need to stay out of other peoples biz.

You do realize "democracy" is a very western idea don't you? We assume this is the best model because it works for us and want to oppose it on others willing or unwilling.

"you don't care what they think" only about what you think is what's the problem here.

Another story:

http://www.stopfundamentalism.com/index.ph...0&Itemid=71

"Seven months ago, Saeed married my older daughter. After a while he started showing lack of interest towards her. He instead wanted to marry my younger daughter Farzaneh. I didn’t accept that. After divorcing my older daughter Saeed continued showing interest for Farzaneh. Finally he kidnapped her and stayed with her for 10 days. We tried to solve the problem without involving the authorities, but had to contact the police who arrested Saeed and Farzaneh. On Tuesday (May 6.) we brought Farzaneh home from custody. First I beat her up. She just cried and apologized for what had happened. I felt pity for her but couldn’t free myself from anxiety of losing my honor. Tuesday night I sat by Farzaneh and told her that one of us had to die to save the families honor. She kissed my forehead and said if someone had to die it must be her. On my request, that night Farzaneh slept in a room downstairs. I had decided to put an end to her life. Everyone in the family knew what was going to happen. During the night I sat several times by her bed and looked at her innocent face. At the time of morning prayer I woke her and her sister up. We talked for the last time and I repeated to her that one of us could live. She laid down and volunteered to die. She kissed my face for the last time and I said good bye to her. I put her hands into her sister’s hands and put a plastic bag on her face. She didn’t show any resistance. We had decided to show it as a suicide. But later we contacted the police and told them the story."

[_Simpson_ 250]

You do realize "democracy" is a very western idea don't you? We assume this is the best model because it works for us and want to oppose it on others willing or unwilling.

"you don't care what they think" only about what you think is what's the problem here.

Another story:

http://www.stopfundamentalism.com/index.ph...0&Itemid=71

"Seven months ago, Saeed married my older daughter. After a while he started showing lack of interest towards her. He instead wanted to marry my younger daughter Farzaneh. I didn’t accept that. After divorcing my older daughter Saeed continued showing interest for Farzaneh. Finally he kidnapped her and stayed with her for 10 days. We tried to solve the problem without involving the authorities, but had to contact the police who arrested Saeed and Farzaneh. On Tuesday (May 6.) we brought Farzaneh home from custody. First I beat her up. She just cried and apologized for what had happened. I felt pity for her but couldn’t free myself from anxiety of losing my honor. Tuesday night I sat by Farzaneh and told her that one of us had to die to save the families honor. She kissed my forehead and said if someone had to die it must be her. On my request, that night Farzaneh slept in a room downstairs. I had decided to put an end to her life. Everyone in the family knew what was going to happen. During the night I sat several times by her bed and looked at her innocent face. At the time of morning prayer I woke her and her sister up. We talked for the last time and I repeated to her that one of us could live. She laid down and volunteered to die. She kissed my face for the last time and I said good bye to her. I put her hands into her sister’s hands and put a plastic bag on her face. She didn’t show any resistance. We had decided to show it as a suicide. But later we contacted the police and told them the story."

The will of the people needs to be the ruling force, that works best for everybody. Many people in Iranian gov. are not happy and there isnt squat they can do about it considering its a dictatorship. Your pretty much saying I shouldnt force my will on these people but its ok if the ruling dictatorship does. We should be a driving force in helping these people free themselves, by reasonable measures of course.

About the story you posted. The saddest thing about that story is that these girls didnt have anyone to turn to and felt suicide was there only choice. If only we could have stepped in and helped them, give them choices.

[FortLaudy 10]

I know my comments sounds harsh, but seriously... no wonder this world is terribly over-populated and the US is at war. It's your kind of thinking that IMO got the US in the situation it is in now. Do you really believe every single life on earth should be saved at no matter what cost??

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The problem is that the US and formerly Europe have extremely questionable history with regard to their treatment of the Middle East region. It's directly because of the US and the UK (or more specifically, because of our oil interests) that Iran has the government that it does. We are directly responsible for the chain of events that led to the 1979 revolution.

Exactly what basis do we have for taking a moral high ground in our dealings with those nations? We don't have any credibility!

[FortLaudy 10]

The problem is that the US and formerly Europe have extremely questionable history with regard to their treatment of the Middle East region. It's directly because of the US and the UK (or more specifically, because of our oil interests) that Iran has the government that it does. We are directly responsible for the chain of events that led to the 1979 revolution.

Exactly what basis do we have for taking a moral high ground in our dealings with those nations? We don't have any credibility!

Yes, and now some people want to interfere even further thinking they can patch things up... That on top of the crazy guy in Iran warning dire consequences if we do... heck... We have enough problems right here in the USA to address - no money, time or effort should be spent on meddling in domestic affairs of another country. period.

[_Simpson_ 250]

I know my comments sounds harsh, but seriously... no wonder this world is terribly over-populated and the US is at war. It's your kind of thinking that IMO got the US in the situation it is in now. Do you really believe every single life on earth should be saved at no matter what cost??

of course not, I have tried to be clear about this and I have said countless times, "reasonable measures". I do think that every life is worth saving and we should never give up and continue looking for answers.

what got us into this situation was the fact that a majority of the people here believed that there was means to make WMDs in Irag and after 9/11 we werent willing to let Saddam take his issues to us. Many stood by the argument that we must not invade unless our security is at risk and thats why Bush had to sell the whole WMD story. I think when it comes to outing dictators that you have to use great caution and have the support of the people whose life are being ruined by the dictator and the support of your own people.

[FortLaudy 10]

there was means to make WMDs in Irag and after 9/11 we werent willing to let Saddam take his issues to us.

I'm sorry, this is where I'm gonna have to leave and say good night and good luck