Turkish girl, 16, 'buried alive by her father because she had friendships with boys'

[_Simpson_ 250]

That's not the argument at all. It's clear that you have a kind heart and want to help, that's awesome. Just realize that sometimes this "help" is unwanted and useless and will really make no difference - probably only be more harmful and cause more hatred towards those people who are accused of interfering and meddling , the change must come from within that specific family, and communities wherever in the world they are, not some outward persuasion and pressure from people with a "better than thou" attitude about their culture and religion.

Of course its not a argument, I was just responding to your backyard analogy.

When it comes to the subject at hand I really think we need to be taking the "better than thou" attitude. I mean 'honor killings', come on.

I was not addressing there culture as a whole so no need to go to extremes...again.

[FortLaudy 10]

I know, what the hell is Shani talking about.

LOL, sorry the "cleaning out the backyard" I just realize is a direct translation of a saying from my 1st language, lol... basically means take care of your own business and problems first before your neighbors.

[_Simpson_ 250]

LOL, sorry the "cleaning out the backyard" I just realize is a direct translation of a saying from my 1st language, lol... basically means take care of your own business and problems first before your neighbors.

Yes I understood that, I was only saying that even though I have to keep a eye on my backyard/problems I am still able to address other issues/backyards that are going on in the world.

I was being a smart as5 though with Amby, I think she got what you were saying but was wondering what the hell I was talking about,lol.

Edited February 5, 2010 by _Simpson_

[FortLaudy 10]

When it comes to the subject at hand I really think we need to be taking the "better than thou" attitude. I mean 'honor killings', come on.

Here's where we disagree. Other countries can take the same stance on controversial issues in this country. But Should they? Must they?

[_Simpson_ 250]

Here's where we disagree. Other countries can take the same stance on controversial issues in this country. But Should they? Must they?

Ok yes this is where we disagree.

Yes they should take a stand for what they believe in, all the while taking reasonable measures. We see this with Global warming on a daily basis, people around the world tell the US there thoughts and are pressuring us to change our ways. The change is coming from within and from the outside, exaggerated or not.

[NickD 203]

Yes, I'm sorry can't help you out Darnell, I really have no idea if they're Sunni or Shi'ite.

Very well possible their actions have nothing to do with religion, could be drinking their liquids from leaded pipes or pottery, or just smoking the wrong brand of crack.

Both are known to cause irrational behavior which is a nice way of saying, they are out of their phuching minds.

[FortLaudy 10]

Ok yes this is where we disagree.

Yes they should take a stand for what they believe in, all the while taking reasonable measures. We see this with Global warming on a daily basis, people around the world tell the US there thoughts and are pressuring us to change our ways. The change is coming from within and from the outside, exaggerated or not.

Ok, so if ordinary Americans don't change their view on energy conservation and alternative fuels. 1 individual at a time, 1 family at a time, and eventually collectively there will be no major change. And even if we have changed everyone's minds there will still be those who think CO2 emmissions have no impact on the environment and make no changes in their life.

Now in Turkey it's not the case that every single family or majority of people think it's ok to kill your own daughter if she doesn't act appropriately, it's a minority of extremists at most, the government is doing what they're supposed to, arrests have been made and it has caused outrage in Turkey. What more should be done?

Very well possible their actions have nothing to do with religion, could be drinking their liquids from leaded pipes or pottery, or just smoking the wrong brand of crack.

Both are known to cause irrational behavior which is a nice way of saying, they are out of their phuching minds.

Indeed, BIG difference between tradition and religion !

[NickD 203]

Indeed, BIG difference between tradition and religion !

And smoking crack.

[FortLaudy 10]

Very good source of Info for anyone interested:

http://www.meforum.org/2067/are-honor-kill...mestic-violence

"Conflict of Cultural Moralities

The problem the West faces is complex. Muslims, Sikhs, and Hindus view honor and morality as a collective family matter. Rights are collective, not individual. Family, clan, and tribal rights supplant individual human rights.[21]

In these groups, intellectuals and elites handicap the absorption of immigrants arriving from countries where honor is a communal virtue. For example, accusations of Islamophobia stymie discussion and policy formulation when policymakers seek to address problems occurring among Muslim immigrants. Still, there are legal interventions underway in Europe, home to between twenty and thirty million Muslim immigrants and their descendents, as opposed to perhaps four million in the United States and Canada.[22] Honor-related violence is, therefore, more visible in Europe than in North America. In 2004, Sweden held an international conference on honor killing, calling for "international cooperation" on the issue. Conference participants concluded:

Violence in the name of honor must be combated as an obstacle to women's enjoyment of human rights. Interpretations of honor as strongly connected with female chastity must be challenged. It can never be accepted that customs, traditions, or religious considerations are invoked to avoid obligations to eradicate violence against women and girls, including violence in the name of honor. Violence against women must be addressed from a rights-based perspective. … Measures should be taken in the areas of legislation, employment, education, and sexual and reproductive health and rights. Respect for women's enjoyment of human rights is intrinsically linked to democracy. International conventions must be incorporated into national legislation.[23]

There have since been local conferences in England, France, and Germany. British law enforcement has begun to hide women in a program equivalent to the U.S. Federal witness protection program.[24] Great Britain has passed legislation to empower police to rescue British female citizens whose families have kidnapped and forcibly married them against their will, usually in Pakistan; the police will return them to Britain if the brides request it. There is a special police unit that deals with the forced, arranged marriages of children.[25] A new movement has also arisen in England, "One Law for All. A Campaign against Shari'a Law in Britain," launched by Maryam Namazie, an advocate opposed to honor killing and other honor-related violence. She has launched this movement to oppose the use of Shari'a courts because they discriminate against women.[26] Additionally, schools in the Netherlands have been asked to be "more alert to honor violence,"[27] following research conducted for the Ministry of Integration."

[_Simpson_ 250]

Ok, so if ordinary Americans don't change their view on energy conservation and alternative fuels. 1 individual at a time, 1 family at a time, and eventually collectively there will be no major change. And even if we have changed everyone's minds there will still be those who think CO2 emmissions have no impact on the environment and make no changes in their life.

Now in Turkey it's not the case that every single family or majority of people think it's ok to kill your own daughter if she doesn't act appropriately, it's a minority of extremists at most, the government is doing what they're supposed to, arrests have been made and it has caused outrage in Turkey. What more should be done?

I agree with the first paragraph. That would be a effective way to come about change if this was your passion but talking about having a debate with people with a unreasonable stance. How do you possible have a debate with somebody who would kill there child because she was talking to boys. You TEll them change your toon or we will have your as5 on a platter. You cant reason with madman.

I know its a extremist point of view but nevertheless 200 a year is a huge problem and the 'provoked' loophole is not acceptable.

Edited February 5, 2010 by _Simpson_

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You don't change people like that by threatening them, surely its better to stop those attitudes manifesting in the first place.

But again, that isn't something that can come from without, certainly not from people who read a headline, get angry and demand something be done, but have no idea whatsoever about what ought to be done other than to say words to the effect of "people should be forced".

[FortLaudy 10]

I agree with the first paragraph. That would be a effective way to come about change if this was your passion but talking about having a debate with people with a unreasonable stance. How do you possible have a debate with somebody who would kill there child because she was talking to boys. You TEll them change your toon or we will have your as5 on a platter. You cant reason with madman.

I know its a extremist point of view but nevertheless 200 a year is a huge problem and the 'provoked' loophole is not acceptable.

Yes, all I can say is good luck with your efforts, there are some organisations out there trying to make a difference, you can join in I guess, but I do not agree with the "we must do something" statement you made earlier, because to me, sure it's extremely sad to see cases like this, but it's such a common occurrence and it's been like this forever amongst those communities, it's part of a core belief amonst a few extremists and they're doing it to themselves... also there seems to be no remorse or stigma associated with someone who kills for "honor" - more like the person is considered a martyr after the act, so it would be like banging your head up against a brick wall trying to change these people's minds, but yeah good luck, you'll need it.

[_Simpson_ 250]

You don't change people like that by threatening them, surely its better to stop those attitudes manifesting in the first place.

But again, that isn't something that can come from without, certainly not from people who read a headline, get angry and demand something be done, but have no idea whatsoever about what ought to be done other than to say words to the effect of "people should be forced".

Gene how about addressing what I have said as a whole and not a small part of it so that you can come up with your jaded opinion. I have explained my MO countless times and I never said threaten, I said demand or else. My "else" aspect of this has been very reasonable, there was no talk of bombing them or anything of that nature.

Dont give them a option, tell them things need to change or there will be consequences. Get rid of the "provoked' loophole and dont let them think they can hide behind that. I am not going to settle with the whole "were doing all we can do" mindset that has bombarded this thread.

Edited February 5, 2010 by _Simpson_

[Amby 490]

And smoking crack.

Nick, I love your posts!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

"demand or else". Yeah that's not a threat is it?

who are you trying to kid?