Philippines: K1 / K2 -- Utterly Confused! Please advise?

[Kris & Liezl 3]

You may consider this unsolicited advise. If so, please do not be offended. I only offer it as an opservation after reading through this entire thread, incuding your original post and all of your replies.

With respect, it seems you may not have a good deal of experience with the Filipino culture. It can be very dangerous to project american based logic and reactions onto people of other cultures, including, among others, Filipinos. For example your last post with the "up to you" comment that you referenced - in general if would be a mistake to take that comment literally and at face value. I think BARON555 said it best: "sounds like a very messy situation". You might consider the possibilities of spending more time there in the PI as your friendship and courtship grows and evolves. In addition allowing more time to expore the desires, options and pragmatic realities of a Filipino beaurocracy allowing an 11 year old child with a still living father, who lives in the same household to relenquish his parental legal rights and have that girl be legally adopted by her sister, who is living in that same household as the natural father. Older Siblings caring (financially and emotionally) for their other younger sibllings is a common thing in the philippines. So is children caring financially for their parents (even when those parents are not particularily 'old'). This situation is common, accepted and to some degree expected - formalizing it with legal procedings is an entirely different ball of wax, however. Unfortunately, US Immigration law only recongnizes legally formalized situations, not cultural ones. Therein lies the problem.

Whatever you decide, I wish you nothing but success for what you want and much happiness.

Warm Regards,

Samby

I am not offended at all... Just a little confused. I don't know what you mean by "it can be very dangerous to project american based logic and reactions onto people of other cultures", or even where/when I have done that. I don't know if you saw in my first post, but I have been friends with this woman since my Fall 2001 semester of college, it is just that I only recently visited the country. In that 9 years, I have come to learn a great deal, in my opinion, about the country, it's people, the culture, and my friend's life as well through encyclopedias, news, Filipino-Americans, and through correspondence with my friend. I am actually well aware of the fact that older siblings, particularly daughters, generally support the family financially. I know she is, and many of her friends I met were also their family "breadwinners" (some, even, while relatives did nothing and/or drank the money away). So I know this is the norm there, and I am not trying to disrupt that. Unfortunately, I cannot afford to spend more time in the PI currently. Being 28, I have many, many years before retirement; and paid time off is simply not adequate.

My friend has always wanted to come here, even before their mom died. Her dad even told me, she has dreamt of going to America since she was a little girl. When I first started working, I went on another forum to ask about tourist visas, where I was told that it is quite impossible for Filipinos to get them. So instead, I saved money, and accrued vacation so I could visit her. And like I said, we realized at that time, that what we had was more than a "friendship". She STILL wants to come here, and I also want her to be here... And it turns out, I have the ability (marriage) to help us both realize this dream. It's just that now there's another piece to the puzzle - she is now directly caring for a younger sister.

Okay, if I had to guess, their father travels a good 50-75% of the year seeking jobs. He shares the same address, but he doesn't "live" there. When I visited, he was around for literally 2 days. None of his children really "know" their step-mother, and she rarely stays with them when their father is on other islands. My friend, out of 5 people (father, step-mother, [alcoholic] brother, sister and herself) is the only gainfully employed person. Why is this NOT a perfect case for "Filipino beaurocracy" to allow the older, responsible sibling to adopt the younger so they can both move to Cebu or Manila for better opportunities? That is what I don't get! Surely there are some Transfer of Custody forms they can just fill out, which "Filipino beaurocracy" can charge a certain fee for - it's not like they don't LOVE everything they can charge a fee for there.

It is not like she will be abandoning her family. I anticipate that she will be sending plenty of money to her family over time, and visiting as erqularly as finances and time allow. The problem is, because of their bond - and the environment she's be left in - her sister is just "part of the deal", to put it simply.

This is what is giving me the [false?] impression that she might be able to adopt her sister (very bottom of that page):

http://www.holtinternational.org/philippines/faq.shtml#faq14

Relative Adoption?

Many families would like to consider adopting a relative of theirs who currently lives in the Philippines. In order for you to pursue a relative adoption, the child you are interested in adopting needs to meet the criteria for an orphan both by Philippine and United States immigration requirements. The US Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) defines the word orphan under two conditions:

a. The child must either have no parents

b. A sole or surviving parent who is unable to care for the child and has, in writing, irrevocable released the child for emigration and adoption.

My friend knows her father would be willing to do letter B. Because if SHE leaves, then HE can no longer travel seeking work. And since there are NO jobs where they live now, how could he support his family if he's stuck there? I mean, am I missing something or what?

[Kris & Liezl 3]

Oh no, they are DEFINITELY attached! But in my eye, nothing is impossible... To me, there is a glimmer of hope because their father did remarry this year. My intent would be to suggest to my friend that she try to start "weaning" her sister off of her, and help her get acquainted with the step-mother. She tells me, "it's up to you" a lot; so I think that if I suggest this, she would at least consider it. The attachment is definitely stronger on the sister's side, but I think my friend could possibly handle being away from her for a short time as long as she knew they would reunite here soon. If I marry this woman, I just want to be alone with her for at least a year or two - it's not like I want to seperate them indefinitely.

Anyway, so good. We plan to get her adopted first... I understand if she has a good case for adopting - which I think she does - then that process takes about 6 months. THEN, AFTER THE LEGAL ADOPTION OF HER SISTER, we will begin filing for the K1. So at his point, it seems like you are saying my friend can legally claim her sister as her dependent, correct? And you are saying we need to list her on I-156K and some other "initial paperwork". My question is, will it be obvious where I need to list her? I work in Technology, so government and government paperwork... It's just an entirely different language to me!

But is what I am getting from you this, that as long as the sister (adopted daughter) follows WITHIN 2 YEARS, then she can come as an automatic K2? But if we wait longer than that, then we will have some problems? If so, I think two years would be ideal. She should be about 14 then, and time to begin high school. Plus, automatic/free babysitter (when I have kids)!

IF she is adopted as a daughter, and I am not sure she can do that, but cannot say, then her adopted child would be listed on the I-129f petition as her child. When the petition is approved the child would need to file an application for the K-2, basically a repeat of the K-1, all forms, fees, medical exam, etc. The K2 MUST be issued within ONE year of the "mothers" K1, NOT two years. Then the child will have up to six months to use the K2. The arrival of her "child" could then be delayed up to 18 months from when the "mothers" visa is issued. This is a "hard" line. If you plan to do this, the adoption must be completed before you file the petition for a K-1, otherwise it is not her "child".

I am no expert in the area but I have never heard of a sibling "adopting" another sibling. Being designated a guardian? Yes, but to adopt them as their "child" I have never heard of this.

Hi Alla, thanks or clearing up that one-year, two-year confusion.

So whenever you adopt a child, don't you just adopt them as your dependent, and you choose to call them whatever they are (son, daughter, brother, sister, cousin)? Because apparently, many Filipinos adopt relatives. And I thought I'd seen cases here in the States where an older sibling, would adopt his or her younger siblings/step-siblings if, for some reason, they were going to go into foster care. So in order to keep the family from being split up, an older sibling will adopt the younger ones. Okay so quite literally, without my friend, the family falls apart financially. If the shared residence is the problem, what if my friend moved to room in the next town, and then filed for adoption? Does it make any difference?

Here is what is causing my confusion: http://www.holtinternational.org/philippines/faq.shtml#faq14. Please look at the last few lines on this page, about Relative Adoption in the Philippines.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

Oh no, they are DEFINITELY attached! But in my eye, nothing is impossible... To me, there is a glimmer of hope because their father did remarry this year. My intent would be to suggest to my friend that she try to start "weaning" her sister off of her, and help her get acquainted with the step-mother. She tells me, "it's up to you" a lot; so I think that if I suggest this, she would at least consider it. The attachment is definitely stronger on the sister's side, but I think my friend could possibly handle being away from her for a short time as long as she knew they would reunite here soon. If I marry this woman, I just want to be alone with her for at least a year or two - it's not like I want to seperate them indefinitely.

Anyway, so good. We plan to get her adopted first... I understand if she has a good case for adopting - which I think she does - then that process takes about 6 months. THEN, AFTER THE LEGAL ADOPTION OF HER SISTER, we will begin filing for the K1. So at his point, it seems like you are saying my friend can legally claim her sister as her dependent, correct? And you are saying we need to list her on I-156K and some other "initial paperwork". My question is, will it be obvious where I need to list her? I work in Technology, so government and government paperwork... It's just an entirely different language to me!

But is what I am getting from you this, that as long as the sister (adopted daughter) follows WITHIN 2 YEARS, then she can come as an automatic K2? But if we wait longer than that, then we will have some problems? If so, I think two years would be ideal. She should be about 14 then, and time to begin high school. Plus, automatic/free babysitter (when I have kids)!

IF she is adopted as a daughter, and I am not sure she can do that, but cannot say, then her adopted child would be listed on the I-129f petition as her child. When the petition is approved the child would need to file an application for the K-2, basically a repeat of the K-1, all forms, fees, medical exam, etc. The K2 MUST be issued within ONE year of the "mothers" K1, NOT two years. Then the child will have up to six months to use the K2. The arrival of her "child" could then be delayed up to 18 months from when the "mothers" visa is issued. This is a "hard" line. If you plan to do this, the adoption must be completed before you file the petition for a K-1, otherwise it is not her "child".

I am no expert in the area but I have never heard of a sibling "adopting" another sibling. Being designated a guardian? Yes, but to adopt them as their "child" I have never heard of this.

Hi Alla, thanks or clearing up that one-year, two-year confusion.

So whenever you adopt a child, don't you just adopt them as your dependent, and you choose to call them whatever they are (son, daughter, brother, sister, cousin)? Because apparently, many Filipinos adopt relatives. And I thought I'd seen cases here in the States where an older sibling, would adopt his or her younger siblings/step-siblings if, for some reason, they were going to go into foster care. So in order to keep the family from being split up, an older sibling will adopt the younger ones. Okay so quite literally, without my friend, the family falls apart financially. If the shared residence is the problem, what if my friend moved to room in the next town, and then filed for adoption? Does it make any difference?

Here is what is causing my confusion: http://www.holtinternational.org/philippines/faq.shtml#faq14. Please look at the last few lines on this page, about Relative Adoption in the Philippines.

I really am not familiar with adoption law. Only from a couple cases in our family, in the United States (this is Gary, not Alla). My sister's husband adopted his sister's children after they were orphaned by a car accident. They first became legal guardians, pretty fast and simple, and later adopted the children, which took longer, though I am sure they were in no particular hurry. And in another case my daughter in law has become the guardian of her youngest sister after her father died (her mother had died several years ago) but she did not "adopt" her, she was appointed legal guardian, which in effect is the same thing as far as her responsibilities but she is not considered the "mother" and it was not an adoption procedure.

I certainly am no expert on the PI adoption rules, but what you are reading regards US citizens adopting children from the PIs, NOT an adoption within the PIs. You really need to check their rules. But do not make plans until you know for sure. Maybe there is a family attorney that can advise in PI.