22-year old dies of swine flu because she didn't have insurance

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

Did you miss my point? Yes. Canada has government health care, we hear it all the time from the Canadians and yet they run from their own system every chance they get and avoid paying for it every chance they get and it is held out to be one of the GOOD systems (certainly much better than Ukraine, I will give you that much)

How is that possible? It comes directly out of our taxes. How long did you "live" there, Gary? You don't appear to be very well educated on the health system.

sigh. Long enough to strill remember my postal code. H1G1G9

the medical care does NOT come directly from your taxes in Canada unless you are in some sort of fantasy province I never heard of. In addition to the money which DOES come from income tax, there are provincial and federal sales taxes (15% in Quebec)which are required ONLY because a large portion of your income tax is used for healtcare. Quebecois also pay for health insurance when they register vehices to cover the costs of motor vehicle accidents, upwards of $300 per year now, JUST for the medical tax, oops, insurance.

Krikit, how long have you been alive to not understand that the government exploits various avenues to collect tax? There is no such as "this tax is for that and this tax is for another" Horsesqueeze. The reason one tax is needed is because other tax was spent on somethign else. Do you beleiev a toll on the road only pays for the road? If so, why are there so few toll roads? How do we pay for others? in the end it is all income into one bucket and all expenses out of it, any other illusion is just that, an illusion. If Canada ended the healthcare today they could end the sales tax also and pay for whatever the sales tax pays for with income tax. I mean this is a silly game Kriket, I would hope you can do better than this.

And "how could this be" that our hospitals are full of Quebecois? LOL The scene is repeated all along our northern border, it is well known and the reaons are well known and not only that...many Canadian doctors leave their country and come here to work also! No need to take my word for it. Look up Northwestern Medical center in St. Albans. Tell what THAT hospital is doing in a county of 8000 population? Look at the Google map of where it is. LOL Notice anything? what is the nearest major city? Montreal Quebec Canada. Burlington, 22 miles down the road already has TWO big hospitals PLUS a University Medical School for a population of 50,000. So what exactly did they need a huge hospital in st, Albans for?

[Marilyn. 340]

U.S. ambulatory facilities survey. Almost 40 percent of the facilities we surveyed reported treating no Canadians, while an additional 40 percent had seen fewer than ten patients. Fifteen percent of respondent sites reported treating 10–25 Canadian patients, and only about 5 percent reported seeing more than 25 during the previous year (generally 25–75 patients; none reported more than 100). These findings were fairly consistent across the service categories. The overall response rate was 67 percent, and it varied across type of clinical facility from 56 percent for ambulatory surgery centers to 80 percent for cancer centers.

We also sought to examine Canadians’ use of mental health and substance abuse services in these same three U.S. catchment areas, because previous reports in the early 1990s suggested a cross-border flow of patients for these services....

We received responses to our telephone survey from twenty-three of the thirty-two organizations in Detroit (72 percent) and from all three of the Seattle sites. All but one reported seeing fewer than ten Canadian patients in the prior year, and none reported seeing more than twenty-five. In New York State the Office of Alcoholism and Substance Abuse collects data on treatment encounters at all centers in the state. From July 1997 through June 1998, 105,456 patients were seen, of which 246 were categorized as "other country."

State hospital discharge data. Over the five-year observation period from 1994 to 1998, 2,031 patients identified as Canadians were admitted to hospitals in Michigan; 1,689 to hospitals in New York State; and 825 to hospitals in Washington State. During the same period, annual inpatient admissions to hospitals within the bordering provinces of Ontario, Quebec, and British Columbia averaged about 1 million, 600,000, and 350,000, respectively.12 Thus, Canadian hospitalizations in the three U.S. states represented 2.3 per 1,000 total admissions in the three Canadian provinces. Furthermore, emergency/urgent admissions and admissions related to pregnancy and birth constituted about 80 percent of the stateside admissions. Elective admissions were a small proportion of total cases in all three states: 14 percent in Michigan; 20 percent in New York; and 17 percent in Washington.

America’s Best Hospitals. Response from these institutions was low (eleven of twenty) and somewhat fragmentary. The numbers of Canadian patients seen in the prior year were generally very low: Six hospitals reported fifteen or fewer elective inpatients or outpatients; four hospitals reported 20–60 patients, and one hospital reported nearly 600 patients (90 percent outpatients and many related to proton beam radiation therapy for cancer).

Results from Canada. Several sources of evidence from Canada reinforce the notion that Canadians seeking care in the United States were relatively rare during the study period. Only 90 of 18,000 respondents to the 1996 Canadian NPHS indicated that they had received health care in the United States during the previous twelve months, and only twenty indicated that they had gone to the United States expressly for the purpose of getting that care.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/21/3/19

and yes I am aware that these stats are about 10 years old

Edited September 27, 2009 by Marilyn.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

Why are there so many Canadian lisence plates in the healthcare clinics in Northern Vermont and New York, especially the outpatient surgery and diagnostic clinics? Go to Vermont Radiology, the waiting room is full of Quebecois and 2-3 Vermonters. What gives? Why so many Quebec license plates in our hospital parking lots? I mean it would never enter MY head to LEAVE MY OWN COUNTRY for health care, why are so many Canadians and Mexicans coming here?

Once, I was at the medical clinic here in HI and my mustang was parked out front with the AB plates on it. I was clearly fleeing from medical care in AB. Oddly, there were no other CDN license plates out front. I guess they found cheaper care in the lower 48.

Oddly, in Vermont there is a LOT of other Canadian plates out front. Quebecois are not as adept at driving on water as people from Alberta and rarely make it to Hawaii in their cars.

LOL you can make jokes all you want and the prolem remains the same, but that's OK because you and Krikit already fled your country for the healthCARE here. see how it works?

[KarenCee 3]

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/dr_goldstein/2009/09/canadian-style-health-care-myt.php

Canadian Health Care: Myths vs. Facts

September 12, 2009, 2:59AM

Corporate lobbyists in Washington D.C. and the politicians in their pockets are bashing and misrepresenting our excellent Canadian health care system. As a Canadian who has worked in hospitals on both sides of the border I would like to set the record straight regarding our single-payer "Universal Health Care" system, and respond to some of these sickening attacks.

In a previous post I explained the basics of Canadian health care , and I pointed out that the highest rate is only $108 for a family of three or more. Those with limited income get their insurance virtually free, just like American members of Congress do. Yes, those same elected nimrods who bash Universal Health Care are receiving essentially the same thing.

Senators and Congressmen get to participate in the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program(FEHB). This is low cost (but good) insurance and taxpayers pay two thirds of the premiums. FEHB insurance does not deny claims because of pre-existing conditions, just like Canada's Health Care system.

Former President Bill Clinton has been a very vocal supporter of Canada's system. He knows America's system as well as any American, and he knows a lot about the Canadian system. Clinton notes that in the U.S. today, there are "incentives to keep people misinformed and full of fear."

The main tactic used by lobbyists is to take isolated incidents of poor health care delivery and misrepresent these rare incidents as if they were standard operating procedure in Canada. Sure, examples of medical malpractice and improper diagnosis can be found on both sides of the border, but malpractice is not the norm in Canada or the USA.

The Canadian System provides for universal coverage for medically necessary health care services provided on the basis of need, rather than the ability to pay. In practical terms "universal coverage" means you get the services and care you need, but doctors bills and hospital bills are unheard of in Canada. I visit my family doctor every three months for medication refills, and to discuss any health concerns. These visits are free just like major surgeries and specialist appointments are free. "Ability to pay" is never a concern in Canada.

Any time (24/7/365) I have a health related concern I can dial 8-1-1 and speak with an experienced nurse or a pharmacist. The nurse will decide if I can treat the problem myself, or if I should see my family doctor or go to the emergency room.

The only time I used that service was when I had a swelling spider bite on my foot. I was driving home and the nurse told me it was potentially serious. "Go to the Emergency Room and have it looked at right away." As always the emergency room visit cost me nothing, and the prompt treatment probably saved me from getting a skin graft.

THE "WAITING LIST" STRAW MAN ARGUMENT

Yes, Canada does have waiting lists for some procedures, but...

...1. Nobody ever goes on a waiting list for emergency care. Heart surgeries, Cancer treatments, etc all take place immediately.

2. We have some waiting lists for some non-emergency procedures such as knee replacements, MRI scans, etc but wait times are not ridiculous and they are well prioritized. The big difference between Canada and the USA is Canadians will always get the procedure. ALWAYS. So what if they have to wait. It's not a perfect world.

3. In America I saw people die of Cancer with no treatment, because they were poor. I also knew several people who walked around on painful knees and hips because they could not afford the arthroscopy or joint replacement. I am certain they would have been delighted to get on a waiting list for a free joint replacement.

4. Rich Canadians can "jump the queue" and pay for non-emergency MRI's or surgeries if they wish. Personally, I would prefer to use a cane for a few months (just like Dr. House) and get my knee replaced for free.

Are Canadians really being "forced" to get treatment in the USA?

No. Sometimes the specialists and surgeons are backed up, or staffing shortages occur. In a small number of cases Canadian patients get sent south of our border when it is best for the patient. Complicated pregnancies requiring a certain hospital to do the delivery, and rare diseases where the best expert is in the USA are two examples, However - when this happens - it is all at the Canadian Governments expense. Travel(Ambulance or Air Ambulance) and treatment are all paid for 100% by the Government, not the patient.

How many Americans get to travel to Canada when the top specialist is in our country, and have it paid for by the American Government? Sending patients to the USA for teatment, when appropriate, is a good thing not a bad thing.

Overall President Clinton is on the right track, and he surely has President Obama in his corner. Both men know that America's system is immoral and embarrassing when compared to all established Western democracies.

Universal Health Care, regardless of ability to pay, is the only way to go. I look forward to the day when my American friends can enjoy the Universal Health Care I take for granted.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

Why are there so many Canadian lisence plates in the healthcare clinics in Northern Vermont and New York, especially the outpatient surgery and diagnostic clinics? Go to Vermont Radiology, the waiting room is full of Quebecois and 2-3 Vermonters. What gives? Why so many Quebec license plates in our hospital parking lots? I mean it would never enter MY head to LEAVE MY OWN COUNTRY for health care, why are so many Canadians and Mexicans coming here?

What the HECK are we doing with a huge modern hosptial, Northwestern Medical Center, in St. Albans Vermont???? There isn't enough people in Franklin county to support a SMALL hospital...but it is just a few miles from the Quebec border. Hmmm???? Could it be? You mean someone did a pro-forma for a big hosptial in a county with a population of about 8,000 and it looked viable? Maybe because it borders a Province with 7 million people with FREE healthcare! That wouldn't seem to be a good business decision, would it? I mean who would expect the people with FREE healthcare IN ANOTHER COUNTRY to fill up your hospital when the indigenous population could never support it. Yet the place is always busy. And just across the lake in equally sparsely populated Clinton County NY is ANOTHER huge hospital. Champlain Valley Physicians Hospital (CVPH) The medical industry is one of Vermont's biggest employers (2nd only to education) and there is only a little over 500,000 people in the state! By far the biggest concentration of medical facilities is the little populated NORTH end of the state. The entire state doesn't constitute a middle sized city in population yet abounds with seemingly endless jobs (there is no shortgage of medical related jobs here) in the medical industry and stiff compeition for nurses and such, to serve Canadians who have FREE healthcare in their home country.

Go figure!

Next question...why so many Quebec license plates in our shopping malls? Could it be the 15% tax we DON'T have on food, shoes and clothes in Vermont? D'ya think? Canaidans flee their country every day to avoid their healthcare system AND the taxes that pay for it. Where will WE go if we have government health care? Better yet, where will the Canadians go and how will Canada pay for the increased burden when they can no longer escape and HAV to use the Canadian system?

"Canaidans (sic) fleeing their country."

You have no idea how silly you sound to informed Canadians.

What "increased burden"? Out-of-country expenses are already covered under Provincial healthcare. It is more economical to do so than to build entire facilities in certain areas.

Cross-border shopping and healthcare goes both ways, Gary. Only you don't hear a bunch of Canadians screaming "It's a conspiracy!" when they see American plates on the Canadian side of the border. There are reciprocal agreements between US and Canadian healthcare facilities all along the northern border. Just ask the Americans in Michigan who have their babies in Ontario. I suggest you become better informed.

The National Health system in canada pays for care in the US ONLY if the person has exceeded the waiting time determined for that procedure, other wise they pay for it themsleves. So what you are saying is that a LOT of people in Canada are waiting a LONG time for health care that so many come here. Actually Kriket, I have to opportunity to speak to them and know that the vast majority are more wealthy or affluent Canadians and they do not wish to wait for more than one year for an MRI so they can come to Vermont and have the government pay for it.

And I certainly welcome the canadians at our shopping centers. Their presence make available for ME many shopping and medical opportuniteis I would other wise not have, they are my good friends. No conspiracy is implied or needed, we have no tax on clothes, shoes, food in Vermont. Quebec has a 15% tax. Drive a few minutes to Vermont and save 15%, PLUS our prices are much lower (yeah the whole exhange rate thing kinda narrows that gap, but still, assuming equal value after exchange, the save 15% on tax) And hey, while they are here they fill up the gas tank for 1/3 less. There is NO cpnspriacy, let me be clear for those of you that always see one. This is purely economics 101. It is cheaper in Vermont. It is cheaper because we do not have government healthcare, Vermont is just a short drive and given several quiet and slow border crossing points, never a hassel or long lines to wait crossing the border (I usually do it at Nolin, QC) so hey, Porquois pas????????!!!!!!!!

[MrsCat 6]

LOL you can make jokes all you want and the prolem remains the same, but that's OK because you and Krikit already fled your country for the healthCARE here. see how it works?

- I had two criteria for a husband. American and platinum health insurance. Once those two were checked off the list I fled my homeland. . . . . . very characteristic of Canadian women actually. We don't go for the fat bank-roll or fancy cars, we look at the deductible, premium and coverage.

[KarenCee 3]

Wait wait...you mean all those Canadians on here who immigrated HERE to be with their spouse (or fiance) did so for the wonderful healthcare we have in the States????

Please tell me that was sarcasm...cos I don't think anyone is buying that. My husband is laughing his a$$ off at that comment.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/dr_goldstein/2009/09/canadian-style-health-care-myt.php

Canadian Health Care: Myths vs. Facts

September 12, 2009, 2:59AM

Corporate lobbyists in Washington D.C. and the politicians in their pockets are bashing and misrepresenting our excellent Canadian health care system. As a Canadian who has worked in hospitals on both sides of the border I would like to set the record straight regarding our single-payer "Universal Health Care" system, and respond to some of these sickening attacks.

In a previous post I explained the basics of Canadian health care , and I pointed out that the highest rate is only $108 for a family of three or more. Those with limited income get their insurance virtually free, just like American members of Congress do. Yes, those same elected nimrods who bash Universal Health Care are receiving essentially the same thing.

Senators and Congressmen get to participate in the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program(FEHB). This is low cost (but good) insurance and taxpayers pay two thirds of the premiums. FEHB insurance does not deny claims because of pre-existing conditions, just like Canada's Health Care system.

Former President Bill Clinton has been a very vocal supporter of Canada's system. He knows America's system as well as any American, and he knows a lot about the Canadian system. Clinton notes that in the U.S. today, there are "incentives to keep people misinformed and full of fear."

The main tactic used by lobbyists is to take isolated incidents of poor health care delivery and misrepresent these rare incidents as if they were standard operating procedure in Canada. Sure, examples of medical malpractice and improper diagnosis can be found on both sides of the border, but malpractice is not the norm in Canada or the USA.

The Canadian System provides for universal coverage for medically necessary health care services provided on the basis of need, rather than the ability to pay. In practical terms "universal coverage" means you get the services and care you need, but doctors bills and hospital bills are unheard of in Canada. I visit my family doctor every three months for medication refills, and to discuss any health concerns. These visits are free just like major surgeries and specialist appointments are free. "Ability to pay" is never a concern in Canada.

Any time (24/7/365) I have a health related concern I can dial 8-1-1 and speak with an experienced nurse or a pharmacist. The nurse will decide if I can treat the problem myself, or if I should see my family doctor or go to the emergency room.

The only time I used that service was when I had a swelling spider bite on my foot. I was driving home and the nurse told me it was potentially serious. "Go to the Emergency Room and have it looked at right away." As always the emergency room visit cost me nothing, and the prompt treatment probably saved me from getting a skin graft.

THE "WAITING LIST" STRAW MAN ARGUMENT

Yes, Canada does have waiting lists for some procedures, but...

...1. Nobody ever goes on a waiting list for emergency care. Heart surgeries, Cancer treatments, etc all take place immediately.

2. We have some waiting lists for some non-emergency procedures such as knee replacements, MRI scans, etc but wait times are not ridiculous and they are well prioritized. The big difference between Canada and the USA is Canadians will always get the procedure. ALWAYS. So what if they have to wait. It's not a perfect world.

3. In America I saw people die of Cancer with no treatment, because they were poor. I also knew several people who walked around on painful knees and hips because they could not afford the arthroscopy or joint replacement. I am certain they would have been delighted to get on a waiting list for a free joint replacement.

4. Rich Canadians can "jump the queue" and pay for non-emergency MRI's or surgeries if they wish. Personally, I would prefer to use a cane for a few months (just like Dr. House) and get my knee replaced for free.

Are Canadians really being "forced" to get treatment in the USA?

No. Sometimes the specialists and surgeons are backed up, or staffing shortages occur. In a small number of cases Canadian patients get sent south of our border when it is best for the patient. Complicated pregnancies requiring a certain hospital to do the delivery, and rare diseases where the best expert is in the USA are two examples, However - when this happens - it is all at the Canadian Governments expense. Travel(Ambulance or Air Ambulance) and treatment are all paid for 100% by the Government, not the patient.

How many Americans get to travel to Canada when the top specialist is in our country, and have it paid for by the American Government? Sending patients to the USA for teatment, when appropriate, is a good thing not a bad thing.

Overall President Clinton is on the right track, and he surely has President Obama in his corner. Both men know that America's system is immoral and embarrassing when compared to all established Western democracies.

Universal Health Care, regardless of ability to pay, is the only way to go. I look forward to the day when my American friends can enjoy the Universal Health Care I take for granted.

Oh thank you. I stand corrected. There is NO hospital in St Albans. I NEVER see Canadian lisence plates in our hospitals and shopping malls. All is OK, Canada is great, governemnt helath care is great. I will go write that 100 times now and I will recover soon from my optical dillusions. Repeat after me....

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[KarenCee 3]

Hmmm...I never said YOU don't see Cdn license plates in your neck of the woods.

[Rhiannercakes 14]

All I have to say is, I have health care and I'll not go to the doctor if I get sick... until I HAVE to go.

I hate waiting for my doctor and she's not a very good one

She's known for asking what's wrong with you and throwing an expensive prescription in your face, insurance or not.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Rhiann

[KarenCee 3]

My husband is from Nova Scotia...a much smaller province than Quebec. He never EVER had a problem seeing his doctor, never had to wait and always got good care. Never had a problem getting anything done that he needed. Don't you see though, it depends on the province.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

Wait wait...you mean all those Canadians on here who immigrated HERE to be with their spouse (or fiance) did so for the wonderful healthcare we have in the States????

Please tell me that was sarcasm...cos I don't think anyone is buying that. My husband is laughing his a$$ off at that comment.

Obviously it is not enough to keep you out and not enough to lure your husband to be with YOU in Canada. CERTAINLY it MUST have been part of your decision, yes? You make it sound important and all, but not enough to be the deal breaker on where you (and your husband choose to live) Better job maybe here? Why? Why isn't that job in Canada? I mean it is clear your decision was based on any number of things and you and your husband chose the way you did for your own reasons. Healthcare isn't one of them.

I mean we still own a really nice flat in downtown Donetsk Ukraine and choose to live here, even though I could (and have) lived there (and Canada) and choose to pay a mortgage here when our place in Donetsk is owned free and clear, and THEY have free health insurance..oops, not free, government run.

It just strikes me as funny that the supposed importance of this (life and death important as this thread implies...by the way. glad to see you have recovered from your mourning of the 22 year gilr that died, that didn't take long) so strong and our country so relies on it, yet we are told this by people that left a similar system. Such things are not necessarily important except in some politically expedient way. They never are the deal breakers in life (my wife is not here for the health care either) yet the proponents of which will tell us they are.

[Marilyn. 340]

Bertie Mae is the USC.. and she stayed in the US because she has a daughter...

I can honestly say I didn't even think about healthcare when I moved to the US.. it was not a deciding factor at all.. I moved here because the hubby had a stable dependable job in the US...

Edited September 27, 2009 by Marilyn.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

My husband is from Nova Scotia...a much smaller province than Quebec. He never EVER had a problem seeing his doctor, never had to wait and always got good care. Never had a problem getting anything done that he needed. Don't you see though, it depends on the province.

Of course I see that. And I, unlike most Americans, understand it IS a provincial thing and that Quebec has the WORST.

But don't YOU see I do not want MY healthcare to be a "provincial thing" or a state thing or a federal department thing? I want it to be MY thing. I want to make decisions for MY family and I want those decisions to be made by the members of MY family for what is best for OUR family regarding medical care, I do not want the government invloved.

I want the government to allow me to buy health insurance like I buy car insurance, I do not want restrictions on who I can buy from, who can sell insurance in my state. I want insurance companies to compete for my business the way cell phone companies and car insurance companies do. I want to be able to go online and get "Progressive" quotes for medical insurance also. I want the government to end frivilous lawsuits which run up our costs with defensive medicne (It is virtually impossible to sue a doctor in Canada, not here)

I want to pay for normal routine office visits the same way I pay for an oil change even though I have car insurance. I want to call doctors and say "how much is a check up?" I want the doctors to have to compete with people paying from their own pocket for normal bills. I want competitive free market presuure on the medical industry to lower costs they way they do for every other industry, THEn talk to me about anything else. Until we try letting our current system work as it should...keep the damn government out.

Another thing...in Canada, when the government does not do as it is expected to they have a recall election and throw the bums out! They also do not allow campaigining until 30 days before an election. They hold the politicians accountable much more so than we do...our politicians have no incentive to maintain a good sysytem after it is implemented. We return more politicians to office that any country in the history of the world, including the Soviet Union that had higher turnover in the Central Commitee than we do in our congress.

[Rhiannercakes 14]

Amusing how this topic turned into a Canadian vs American thing.