Sarah and the Death Panels

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The red herring

How so?

These decisions currently *are* left to bureaucrats (its hard to see how that won't be the case under any system)

Living Wills are *not* legally binding and can be overridden by the aforementioned bureaucrats.

These decisions are made in a very small qauntities. Most of the time its under extoridnary circumstances. Last resort type of situations.

Under gov reform this could drastically change.

Says who? Aren't most of the people towards the end of their life under government sponsored care - Medicare - already? If your theory was true, there'd be death panels and killer squads all over the country already. The GOP should be supporting the elimination of this socialist, death panel style health care system called Medicare. And yet, when they were given a chance to do that, they all thought that Medicare was worth keeping around. Hence, the GOP suports death panels.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Mr. Big Dog

[My Name Is Nobody 3]

The red herring

How so?

These decisions currently *are* left to bureaucrats (its hard to see how that won't be the case under any system)

Living Wills are *not* legally binding and can be overridden by the aforementioned bureaucrats.

Please do not inject facts. The GOP doesn't take them well.

Well for Fact, Under my Super Duper Platinum Gold healthcare plan I'm 99.9% in control of my healthcare. Also for Fact, You do not know what it will be like if healthcare is reformed by the Big O. No details yet. I dont want change especially when I dont know what the change is, Fact.

[Danno 1,228]

Living wills are prudent - because it avoids putting your relatives through the expense and pain of court case if there is a dispute about what you would have wanted. Nothing wrong with that really.

You're missing the point.

Sure it's a great idea... as is using a condom, I don't think it's Obamas place to walk me through the steps of doing it.

I'm a big boy now, I can do a living will on my own.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The red herring

How so?

These decisions currently *are* left to bureaucrats (its hard to see how that won't be the case under any system)

Living Wills are *not* legally binding and can be overridden by the aforementioned bureaucrats.

Please do not inject facts. The GOP doesn't take them well.

Well for Fact, Under my Super Duper Platinum Gold healthcare plan I'm 99.9% in control of my healthcare. Also for Fact, You do not know what it will be like if healthcare is reformed by the Big O. No details yet. I dont want change especially when I dont know what the change is, Fact.

If you are in a coma or a persistent vegetative state - you aren't in control of whether or not someone pulls the plug on you.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The red herring

How so?

These decisions currently *are* left to bureaucrats (its hard to see how that won't be the case under any system)

Living Wills are *not* legally binding and can be overridden by the aforementioned bureaucrats.

Please do not inject facts. The GOP doesn't take them well.

Well for Fact, Under my Super Duper Platinum Gold healthcare plan I'm 99.9% in control of my healthcare. Also for Fact, You do not know what it will be like if healthcare is reformed by the Big O. No details yet. I dont want change especially when I dont know what the change is, Fact.

Really? Those that had their policies cancelled or rescinded when they needed them thought that too. They took it as fact that they were in control of their health care until the insurance company injected a dose of ugly reality into their ailing lives.

We have government run health insurance in the US already and it's working a heck of a lot better, it's a heck of a lot more reliable and a heck of a lot more efficient than the fractured private insurance system that has helped tremendously in making health care the most expensive in the developed world with the least overall return. It's unsustainable. Plain and simple.

You don't want change? Or you just one of them America haterz that want to see the President fail at any cost?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Living wills are prudent - because it avoids putting your relatives through the expense and pain of court case if there is a dispute about what you would have wanted. Nothing wrong with that really.

You're missing the point.

Sure it's a great idea... as is using a condom, I don't think it's Obamas place to walk me through the steps of doing it.

I'm a big boy now, I can do a living will on my own.

So its a bad idea only because it might be in Obama's healthcare reforms?

And I thought ideas were weighed on their own merits, not merely because someone you don't like has suggested them...

[tmma 467]

The red herring

How so?

These decisions currently *are* left to bureaucrats (its hard to see how that won't be the case under any system)

Living Wills are *not* legally binding and can be overridden by the aforementioned bureaucrats.

Please do not inject facts. The GOP doesn't take them well.

Well for Fact, Under my Super Duper Platinum Gold healthcare plan I'm 99.9% in control of my healthcare. Also for Fact, You do not know what it will be like if healthcare is reformed by the Big O. No details yet. I dont want change especially when I dont know what the change is, Fact.

If you are in a coma or a persistent vegetative state - you aren't in control of whether or not someone pulls the plug on you.

You sure about that? I didn't know that. I thought with my advance directive and living will-which is very specific-it was all taken care of.

edit-this concerns me. I'm calling my attorney who drew up will, ad and lw to ask him.

Edited August 24, 2009 by tmma

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The red herring

How so?

These decisions currently *are* left to bureaucrats (its hard to see how that won't be the case under any system)

Living Wills are *not* legally binding and can be overridden by the aforementioned bureaucrats.

Please do not inject facts. The GOP doesn't take them well.

Well for Fact, Under my Super Duper Platinum Gold healthcare plan I'm 99.9% in control of my healthcare. Also for Fact, You do not know what it will be like if healthcare is reformed by the Big O. No details yet. I dont want change especially when I dont know what the change is, Fact.

If you are in a coma or a persistent vegetative state - you aren't in control of whether or not someone pulls the plug on you.

You sure about that? I didn't know that. I thought with my advance directive and living will-which is very specific-it was all taken care of.

No, it isn't. You have the living will to indicate your wishes to next of kin and for them to act on your behalf. I don't think that hospitals are legally obliged to honor it however - and there are State Laws that take the decision out of your hands anyway.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Private Pike

[Danno 1,228]

Palin's arguments are sensationlist and dishonest. They also ignore two basic facts:

1) Care is rationed under the current, private insurance system - if the insurance company thinks your treatment is medically unnecessary, experimental or if your condition was deemed pre-existing, they won't pay for it.

2) There are already State Laws (like the Futile Care Laws in Texas) which put the decision about whether to provide treatments to people in comas or persistent vegetative states (and yes, people like her beloved son Trig) solely into the hands of hospital administrators - regardless of the wishes of the patient or the patient's family.

Let me address your points.

1. Care is rationed under "SOME" private insurance, in the free market you get what you pay for. If you want oil change insurance you can get that too.

When Govco takes over, there is no hope of having any options except what THEY ALLOW.

In the rough and tumble free market, what is affordable today might not tomorrow and what is too expensive today, might not be later.

2.Such care limiting laws might exist in a few states but if we don't like those limits we can move to a state which better matches our wants and needs. In fact this is how states learn what works, by comparing to other states.

When the fed takes over..... there is no escape! We are stuck with their programs and must accept "it is the best we can do".

[My Name Is Nobody 3]

The red herring

How so?

These decisions currently *are* left to bureaucrats (its hard to see how that won't be the case under any system)

Living Wills are *not* legally binding and can be overridden by the aforementioned bureaucrats.

Please do not inject facts. The GOP doesn't take them well.

Well for Fact, Under my Super Duper Platinum Gold healthcare plan I'm 99.9% in control of my healthcare. Also for Fact, You do not know what it will be like if healthcare is reformed by the Big O. No details yet. I dont want change especially when I dont know what the change is, Fact.

Really? Those that had their policies cancelled or rescinded when they needed them thought that too. They took it as fact that they were in control of their health care until the insurance company injected a dose of ugly reality into their ailing lives.

We have government run health insurance in the US already and it's working a heck of a lot better, it's a heck of a lot more reliable and a heck of a lot more efficient than the fractured private insurance system that has helped tremendously in making health care the most expensive in the developed world with the least overall return. It's unsustainable. Plain and simple.

You don't want change? Or you just one of them America haterz that want to see the President fail at any cost?

Im far from a hater.

Until I see a laid out plan of what and how things would affect me Im not for blind change. Just because people dont like his policies does not mean they want him to fail. What your saying is the way liberals think. Just because he does not get all his policies or ideas passed does not mean he fails.

Do you think if he fails to pass healthcare he is a failure? Thats not much of an attitude. Really thats silly to think that way

[tmma 467]

The red herring

How so?

These decisions currently *are* left to bureaucrats (its hard to see how that won't be the case under any system)

Living Wills are *not* legally binding and can be overridden by the aforementioned bureaucrats.

Please do not inject facts. The GOP doesn't take them well.

Well for Fact, Under my Super Duper Platinum Gold healthcare plan I'm 99.9% in control of my healthcare. Also for Fact, You do not know what it will be like if healthcare is reformed by the Big O. No details yet. I dont want change especially when I dont know what the change is, Fact.

If you are in a coma or a persistent vegetative state - you aren't in control of whether or not someone pulls the plug on you.

You sure about that? I didn't know that. I thought with my advance directive and living will-which is very specific-it was all taken care of.

No, it isn't. You have the living will to indicate your wishes to next of kin and for them to act on your behalf. I don't think that hospitals are legally obliged to honor it however - and there are State Laws that take the decision out of your hands anyway.

Sec. 166.038. PROCEDURE WHEN DECLARANT IS INCOMPETENT OR INCAPABLE OF COMMUNICATION. (a) This section applies when an adult qualified patient has executed or issued a directive and is incompetent or otherwise mentally or physically incapable of communication.

(B) If the adult qualified patient has designated a person to make a treatment decision as authorized by Section 166.032©, the attending physician and the designated person may make a treatment decision in accordance with the declarant's directions.

© If the adult qualified patient has not designated a person to make a treatment decision, the attending physician shall comply with the directive unless the physician believes that the directive does not reflect the patient's present desire.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/...0.000166.00.htm

waiting on phone call back from atty, but I did find this. ^

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Palin's arguments are sensationlist and dishonest. They also ignore two basic facts:

1) Care is rationed under the current, private insurance system - if the insurance company thinks your treatment is medically unnecessary, experimental or if your condition was deemed pre-existing, they won't pay for it.

2) There are already State Laws (like the Futile Care Laws in Texas) which put the decision about whether to provide treatments to people in comas or persistent vegetative states (and yes, people like her beloved son Trig) solely into the hands of hospital administrators - regardless of the wishes of the patient or the patient's family.

Let me address your points.

1. Care is rationed under "SOME" private insurance, in the free market you get what you pay for. If you want oil change insurance you can get that too.

When Govco takes over, there is no hope of having any options except what THEY ALLOW.

In the rough and tumble free market, what is affordable today might not tomorrow and what is too expensive today, might not be later.

2.Such care limiting laws might exist in a few states but if we don't like those limits we can move to a state which better matches our wants and needs. In fact this is how states learn what works, by comparing to other states.

When the fed takes over..... there is no escape! We are stuck with their programs and must accept "it is the best we can do".

Except Danno, that you don't know the full details of the reform plans (noone here does) - so surely wild speculation about the horrors of Federal Government isn't very useful.

[Danno 1,228]

Palin is acting like Obama's plan will line up old people by the thousands and kill them, which is just ridiculous rhetoric.

Actually what many are saying is: if you push us down this water-slide it will logically lead to us getting soaked.

You are too focused an the amount of water at the top of the slide.

[Danno 1,228]

Leaving this stuff to chance is scary - and leaving all the decision making to relatives who are under extreme stress.

Sheeeesh........... Hell of a lot better than leaving it to goverment bueracrats. Which is what this is about

Is there some website where you can copy + paste what other people say and it will spit out what glenn beck would ramble on in response to it? Please link me to it and quit hogging all the fun

He speaks out of irrational fear. Just like the Republitard bitсh that he is.

Its fun watching lefties unravel

No kidding, their slip is seriously showing.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The red herring

How so?

These decisions currently *are* left to bureaucrats (its hard to see how that won't be the case under any system)

Living Wills are *not* legally binding and can be overridden by the aforementioned bureaucrats.

Please do not inject facts. The GOP doesn't take them well.

Well for Fact, Under my Super Duper Platinum Gold healthcare plan I'm 99.9% in control of my healthcare. Also for Fact, You do not know what it will be like if healthcare is reformed by the Big O. No details yet. I dont want change especially when I dont know what the change is, Fact.

If you are in a coma or a persistent vegetative state - you aren't in control of whether or not someone pulls the plug on you.

You sure about that? I didn't know that. I thought with my advance directive and living will-which is very specific-it was all taken care of.

No, it isn't. You have the living will to indicate your wishes to next of kin and for them to act on your behalf. I don't think that hospitals are legally obliged to honor it however - and there are State Laws that take the decision out of your hands anyway.

Sec. 166.038. PROCEDURE WHEN DECLARANT IS INCOMPETENT OR INCAPABLE OF COMMUNICATION. (a) This section applies when an adult qualified patient has executed or issued a directive and is incompetent or otherwise mentally or physically incapable of communication.

(B) If the adult qualified patient has designated a person to make a treatment decision as authorized by Section 166.032©, the attending physician and the designated person may make a treatment decision in accordance with the declarant's directions.

© If the adult qualified patient has not designated a person to make a treatment decision, the attending physician shall comply with the directive unless the physician believes that the directive does not reflect the patient's present desire.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/...0.000166.00.htm

waiting on phone call back from atty, but I did find this. ^

There's also these:

http://www.answers.com/topic/living-will

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futile_care_law

Seems that you're dependent on the applicable State Laws - living wills drafted in one state not being recognised in others (great if you have an accident on vacation), also the definitions vary - so life-prolonging treatment might include a feeding tube (as was the case the in the Terry Schiavo case).