Did you consider living in Russia?

[mox 298]

Mox, usually I agree with you, but...

...

Neither country is perfect, but these are areas--substance abuse, corruption, sexual health--where I would say that the situation in the US is markedly better.

Totally agreed that these issues are magnified in Russia, but the poster makes it seem like the US is a veritable utopia, furthering the stereotype that foreigners are practically gnawing their own arms off to get into the US. There are areas of Los Angeles and Chicago that even the police won't go into, and the US has more people in prisons than even China. Alcoholism may not kill as many in Russia (I posted on this a few threads back), but the US is the biggest consumer of hard drugs like cocaine, heroine, meth, and others in the world. Police (and general official) corruption certainly isn't as bad, but since the age of camera phones with mp3 capabilities, the public can see that police brutality certainly isn't a niche thing. The US has less and less restrictive legislation than most nations when it comes to environmental business practices. Regarding sexual health, I agree, but again the US is no STD-free utopia. Far from it, and because Americans by default have no access to basic health care (something even Russians have, although I agree that it's very lacking), many people with STD's go untreated before they've managed to infect somebody else. The situation is better, but I think it's unfair to paint one country as a cesspool and the other country as some kind of panacea, when it's clearly not the case.

Edited June 2, 2009 by mox

[eekee 182]

Mox, usually I agree with you, but...

...

Neither country is perfect, but these are areas--substance abuse, corruption, sexual health--where I would say that the situation in the US is markedly better.

Totally agreed that these issues are magnified in Russia, but the poster makes it seem like the US is a veritable utopia, furthering the stereotype that foreigners are practically gnawing their own arms off to get into the US. There are areas of Los Angeles and Chicago that even the police won't go into, and the US has more people in prisons than even China. Alcoholism may not kill as many in Russia (I posted on this a few threads back), but the US is the biggest consumer of hard drugs like cocaine, heroine, meth, and others in the world. Police (and general official) corruption certainly isn't as bad, but since the age of camera phones with mp3 capabilities, the public can see that police brutality certainly isn't a niche thing. The US has less and less restrictive legislation than most nations when it comes to environmental business practices. Regarding sexual health, I agree, but again the US is no STD-free utopia. Far from it, and because Americans by default have no access to basic health care (something even Russians have, although I agree that it's very lacking), many people with STD's go untreated before they've managed to infect somebody else. The situation is better, but I think it's unfair to paint one country as a cesspool and the other country as some kind of panacea, when it's clearly not the case.

Yeah, I think one of the problems with this thread is that we have one poster who sees Russia as pretty much perfect, and then some posters who feel that America is, at least in comparison. I can't afford health care or insurance in America at the moment. I can't get a lease for an apartment in America without a cosigner. The opportunities for me in Russia are actually better and my quality of life would be higher. But I am also not going to pretend like our expat friend that Russia is problem-free and/or superior.

Edited June 2, 2009 by eekee

[Chuckles 0]

Russia is fine, but I am not Russian. There are too many obstacles for me, unless I was in a more 'cultural' center such as Moscow or St. Pete. That doesn't mean if given a choice I would live in a big city like that, its just the only choices for me as far as Russia is concerned. If I was smarter and saved money (I am dumb and waste money) I would love to retire somewhere more rural in Russia. But that just isn't gonna happen any time soon.

It is a real personal decision, but I think if you step back and look at just facts, Russia, and Russians trying to get by, have more problems to overcome (instability, corruption, poverty, racism etc.). Mox, Americans have it better then I think you give us credit for (although we can whine pretty loud sometimes).

[slim 1,514]

If my wife was making the $3,000/month that am-expat is "getting by on" I would've moved there in a second!

If she would've paid for me to fly over there, live in her apartment, support me for six months while I was waiting on my documents, I wouldn't be on here typing this right now, I'd be sitting in her (whoops - I meant our!) apartment and watching TV One or Borat or something. But, the fact of the matter is, for the average couple on VJ, when you're talking $3,000/month, it wasn't being made in Russia, it was being made right here in the good ol' U.S. of A.

What I find very ironic about this thread is it was presented in a "Russia is so much better than America so why are all of you misleading your S/Os and having them move there?" type way. Sure, I too saw how "fake" the U.S. is after living abroad for a while. My wife was surprised that our "freedom" really meant we were free to pay for the permission to do something. And yes, I'm with you also on the fact that America is 90% facade, and only 10% real. But, what doesn't change is the fact that you're making "American money" in Russia, not "Russian money" and you're not really living as a "Russian," you're living as an "American in Russia."

When S/Os come here, they don't make grossly inflated wages because of their nationality. Far from it. And I'm guessing, with 20+ years in business and a rental home in the U.S. that's lost more in value than most peoples' homes are worth, you weren't exactly "dropping everything" to go be with your S/O which would be the case most of the rest of us would be in if we were to head to the motherland. So, pointing out the negatives of having such one-sided importation of S/Os is convenient, but unless you can come up with a good way for Russian women to support American men while they immigrate, you're going to have to tone down the America bashing because, seriously, it wasn't your case anyway and it's not the case for the rest of us.

And as an American in Russia, why is your business there so much more secure than it would be here? If Americans could lose their job at any moment, couldn't you as an American lose your business in Russia at any moment? "But slim, it's a niche market and I make a lot of money." OK, great argument... but you're still a foreigner and it could be taken away from you at any time. 100 protesters set out to protest Putin yesterday. 33 of them ended up on buses and got beat down, locked up, whatever you want to call it. Label it what you will, but that's the Russian system. Sure, it's different than the American system, and it's easy to find a niche and be secure in your niche, but why does that make your niche any more guaranteed than mine? I'm pretty sure Americans are the greediest people on earth, and I'm pretty sure that's going to perpetuate our system way longer than it's going to perpetuate any other on the planet.

And thusly, I'm 100% positive that bringing my wife here and having her work her @$$ off, pay bills forever, and cut out her own slice of the American Dream is going to be a more secure niche than any kind of "guaranteed" hustle I could've set up in 20+ years in Russia.

If you love Russia that much, stay there. There's nothing that says you have to marry your wife and come back to the U.S. Why would you? Stay there, do a CR-1 or whatever, and live happily ever after on your $3,000/month. But please, for goodness sake, stop preaching to the choir about how bad life in the U.S. is and how great life in Russia is. I know it, I'm with you, it's just that my wife couldn't pay for me to fly over there and put me up for six months until I could find my niche. Maybe you could?

[visaveteran 1]

If my wife insists on going to the US I will but I will also insist in not selling the apartment in St Petersburg which did not drop in value at all during the US recesson. My home in the US dropped in value by $400,000 since last October. If I had a large mortgage on it I would have been wiped out like so many of my ex-neighbors. It is easier to get started in SPb than in the US.

Those who have lived in other countries will recognize these points, those who have not will refuse to believe any of them.

You obviously haven't been paying attention then. If your apartment in St. Pete hasn't dropped in value, then it must have been carved out of a single block of gold. Because property values all over St. Pete have been hit hard. Also, if the value of your US home has dropped $400k, then seriously ####### are you doing hanging out on VJ? Get Jeeves to handle all your immigration stuff while you hire a personal trainer to help you write intelligibly.

Aside from being a mafia and KGB infested dictatorship that assassinates opponents...

Ah yes, it's so nice that we live in a country free of organized crime.

and a cold and bleak country, and with high costs for lousy service and amenities, I'd love to live in Russia.

Ah yes, Russia, a country that covers 1/6th of the surface of the earth, is just a solid block of ice for 12 months out of the year when it's not raining. And I so agree that services and amenities in the US are...well dadgummit, I think I actually get paid to use them!!

And then there's the extreme alcoholism, short life expectancy, and the skinheads and the crime.

Ah yes, so glad we have addiction and gang-related crime under control here in this country. It truly is utopia on Earth.

Cigarette smoke everywhere. The crooked police, the bribes, the rip-offs, the fake merchandise, the lousy health care system.

I know, right? Tobacco companies are just begging for bailouts in this country because nobody seems to smoke anymore. Meanwhile, all of our police are practically right out of Mayberry, and holy ####### dude don't even get me started on our totally f*cking awesome health care system that the rest of the world is so envious of.

There's the many many prostitutes and sex trade and high std epidemic. Boys still must serve in the Army and get treated like animals and are abused. There is the pollution from lead gas and factories and the nuclear dumping grounds, to name but a few.

Yep, no prostitution here in the good 'ol US of A. And no STD's either, thanks to our world class health care system. And yeah, you gotta love our perfectly responsible corporate citizens here in this country. They'd never do anything like dump toxic waste or pollute our ground water, rivers, and streams.

So long, comrade.

Promise?

If you want to live in Russia, you'd better be white, non Jewish, non gay, and non black. So all you white guys out there, consider Russia for your new home.

War Veterans in the USA are treated very well. Russia does nothing for vets...nothing.

Much of today's USA mafias are Russian, Ukrainian, and Albanian.

A Moscow gay pride march was harshly suppressed and people went to jail. Democracy?

There is a long list of jobs women are forbidden to take. Democracy?

Packs of wild, stray, diseased, hungry dogs roam around in Moscow. I know, I encountered that myself. I said Moscow, not Siberia.

I've been to a Russian hospital. The nurses handled bloody bandages without gloves. The bathrooms were filthy. Because I was American they let me use the doctors bathroom as they didn't want me to see the "dirty" bathrooms. They were all dirty! Most patients were drunks who were beaten up by other drunks. But hey, the "care" was free.

I know you're the Chairman of the Board and lead comedian for this forum...but i wonder just who you are? Never hear about your Russian fiancee or wife. Never hear about a recent trip to the FSU. Maybe you're a Google "Russian expert?" I've been there 7 times and three trips were for a month or more. Not a one week wonder.

OK...now say something clever, funny or wisea**...Dude.

PS: I'm done with this thread. if you want to reply, gear it to impress other readers and your fan club. I won't read it.

[Cixelsyd 1]

PS: I'm done with this thread. if you want to reply, gear it to impress other readers and your fan club. I won't read it.

I'm taking my ball and going home!

You can't just do a drive by insult. Think of the rest of us reading and how much entertainment this could be. Some of us have jobs to do and we would rather be here reading the forums instead of working.

Seriously though, I don't think Russia is as bad as it's being made out to be and I know America isn't as good as we wish it was. However, I'm quite certain any American citizen moving from the U.S. to Russia would be in for a culture shock. And on the other side of things I know a lot of Russians who have come to work or live here and found America isn't as good as they originally thought. They all come thinking it's an amazing place but eventually half of them still think it's an amazing place and the other half can't wait to return to Russia. It really all comes down to what you are expecting from life and what you are willing to put up with. I mean you would never catch me in the middle east, but someone who likes to build sand castles and has a Camel fetish would think there's no better place on earth. Sure they may have to wear a ninja outfit, but to them it would be a small price.

[visaveteran 1]

PS: I'm done with this thread. if you want to reply, gear it to impress other readers and your fan club. I won't read it.

I'm taking my ball and going home!

You can't just do a drive by insult. Think of the rest of us reading and how much entertainment this could be. Some of us have jobs to do and we would rather be here reading the forums instead of working.

Seriously though, I don't think Russia is as bad as it's being made out to be and I know America isn't as good as we wish it was. However, I'm quite certain any American citizen moving from the U.S. to Russia would be in for a culture shock. And on the other side of things I know a lot of Russians who have come to work or live here and found America isn't as good as they originally thought. They all come thinking it's an amazing place but eventually half of them still think it's an amazing place and the other half can't wait to return to Russia. It really all comes down to what you are expecting from life and what you are willing to put up with. I mean you would never catch me in the middle east, but someone who likes to build sand castles and has a Camel fetish would think there's no better place on earth. Sure they may have to wear a ninja outfit, but to them it would be a small price.

Great post. Good natured fun. Not "in your face" which allows me to hear you rather than react to you. Well done.

I'm not taking my ball and going home, I simply stated my boundaries with my fellow poster...the prolific Mox...man of vast knowledge and mystery. No doubt he was Russian in his previous life. Maybe Lenin? Where else does he get his vast knowledge and insight into all things Russian?

I will own there are things to like about a "visit" to Russia. The Moscow metro system is phenomenal. The Russian vodka the best except maybe the Polish vodka. The food is very good but not terribly healthy. St. Petersburg is definitely a great and fun and beautiful city...the one place i could live if I had to.

Hopefully, their education system is still strong. I don't know if it is now. Their professional boxers seems to kick a lot of a** around the world. I do like Russian men as a rule. They have a certain style and masculine quality I don't see in the USA as often. They have a sense of humor that is unique as well.

Of course, the very best thing in Russia is its women. Anyone disagree?

But ultimately, I judge a country on how it treats old people...a status we will all face all too soon. When I look into the faces of many older Russians, I see the tell-tale signs of being downtrodden and oppressed under communism. Not too many smiles. Life is hard for people who have to live on $75 a month pension like my Russian mother-in-law who lived a a typical factory worker life. My wife often comments how good life is in America for older people. She tells me in Russia older people don't do much...mostly sit in their flats. Here in the USA older people travel, play golf, and are out and about doing things often. That seems to amaze her.

Thanks for your amusing and clean reply.

[mox 298]

But ultimately, I judge a country on how it treats old people...a status we will all face all too soon. When I look into the faces of many older Russians, I see the tell-tale signs of being downtrodden and oppressed under communism. Not too many smiles. Life is hard for people who have to live on $75 a month pension like my Russian mother-in-law who lived a a typical factory worker life. My wife often comments how good life is in America for older people. She tells me in Russia older people don't do much...mostly sit in their flats. Here in the USA older people travel, play golf, and are out and about doing things often. That seems to amaze her.

LOL. You and GiGii need to form the "Rose colored glasses USA Fan Club." You say this as if the majority of older people in this country are out in their Winnebago's traveling from golf course to golf course in some kind of "On Golden Pond" fictional universe. The fact is that we treat old people pretty damn crappy in this country. And yeah, I'd rather be in this country instead of Russia if I were old and living on a fixed income, but life aint no picnic here either for the majority of older people.

As I said before, and as I've said in other threads, Russia has problems. BIG problems. If I was hard on my luck, I'd much rather be hard on my luck in the US than Russia. If I were sick, I'd rather be treated in a US hospital for the most part, unless I had access to some of the very reasonably priced private health care over there.

I happen to agree with you that many (maybe even most) social problems in the FSU are much bigger than here in the US. But you're trying to paint this Norman Rockwell portrait of the US, while at the same time denigrating the country that produced your wife and her family, and hell dude she seemed to have turned out alright. You just need a little perspective is all.

But hey...nobody's ever called me "mysterious!" Cool!! Now if you don't mind, I'm off to watch "Hunt for Red October" and "Enemy at the Gates" so I can increase my vast knowledge of all things Russia.

[BTalley 0]

My wife's view: She agrees with everything the lover-of-all-things-Russian wrote, but she wonders how he copes with the horrible SPb weather.

My view: Simplistic as it sounds, you can get a pretty good idea about a country by how many people from other nations are trying to live there (and how many natives want to leave). If there is a country more people are trying to make their home than the U.S., someone please tell me what that country is.

[Cixelsyd 1]

My view: Simplistic as it sounds, you can get a pretty good idea about a country by how many people from other nations are trying to live there (and how many natives want to leave). If there is a country more people are trying to make their home than the U.S., someone please tell me what that country is.

Try and think of a country that isn't hated more by the rest of the world.

[mox 298]

My view: Simplistic as it sounds, you can get a pretty good idea about a country by how many people from other nations are trying to live there (and how many natives want to leave). If there is a country more people are trying to make their home than the U.S., someone please tell me what that country is.

Off the top of my head, New Zealand, Canada, France, Ireland, anywhere in Scandinavia, possibly Iceland. I don't know if more people are trying to make these places their homes than the US but I don't think the US is the only game in town these days. In fact, if I could speak the language, France looks pretty damn good to me just for the employment and other social benefits alone. 35 hour work week and iirc 2 months of vacation a year? Sign me up. I'll put up with worker strikes and (let's face it) the French for that.

Try and think of a country that isn't hated more by the rest of the world.

That tone is starting to change though. Still a lot of Bush-years damage to undo, but I think the rest of the world is starting to exhale just a little bit.

[anka 1]

Yes, we definitely considered living in Russia - and we still do.

Having lived there for awhile , I think I'm pretty knowledgeable about what living there entails and how things are, etc, etc.. However, after tons of consideration my husband decided to come live in the US of A. It hasn't been easy for him. Luckily he is an outgoing guy and has a really upbeat outlook on life, so he is slowly adjusting. Though, I doubt he will ever become "americanized".

I actually really, really loved living in Russia - some of the best years of my life to date! - and I have the utmost appreciation for Russia's culture and the people. I really do miss it at times, especially the people. Personally speaking, the sheer ease of making genuine, lifelong, reliable friends there is definitely something to be said... I could go on and on about all the things I love about that country, but I'll spare you the boredom..... Yes, living there is not easy at all and is very frustrating and sad sometimes, but I think living in any country that one is not born and raised in is always a very difficult feat.

My husband and I avoid saying "forever" in terms of living in the USA. That word is like eternal doom at the end of the long tunnel and would make anyone seriously homesick and depressed. We take one day at a time and try to keep our expectations minimal while still leaving room for possibilities. Hell, the other night we even discussed us moving to Russia sometime in the future - a couple years in the US, a couple years in Russia...dream on, right?! But, for now, we're in the USA.

I was wondering if I am the only crazy person who is resistant to bringing a wife from Russia to the US. She is intrigued by the idea but I would really prefer to stay in Russia. I prefer the culture in almost every way and think of the harm living in the somewhat toxic cultural environment of the US would do to our relationship and her son. One of the reasons she is such a fantastic human is because of the culture in which she was raised that continues to nurture her.

My question is whether you and your spouse considered remaining in Russia, instead of Americanizing your spouse? If you did, how is it working?

These are ongoing discussions in our home now, the more she thinks the more she wants to try living in the US but what she knows of it is a Hollywood image, not the reality. She has traveled extensively before we got together but never to the US. We applied for a tourist visa so she could see for herself but the Consulate denied her application despite all the supporting evidence of retaining her permanent residence in Russia.

Knowing her very well, and what she values in life I know it would be detrimental for her. Her 12 year old son doesn't care either way, he is very flexible and will probably always be an international kid comfortable in any environment and speaking 1/2 a dozen languages.

[visaveteran 1]

My view: Simplistic as it sounds, you can get a pretty good idea about a country by how many people from other nations are trying to live there (and how many natives want to leave). If there is a country more people are trying to make their home than the U.S., someone please tell me what that country is.

Try and think of a country that isn't hated more by the rest of the world.

They don't hate the USA society...they love it. They just don't like our government polices.

I will name a country that maybe was in the top two or three most hated countries in recent history...The Soviet Union.

[BTalley 0]

I don't know if more people are trying to make these places their homes than the US

Yes, you do know. And you know the answer is "no."

1,107,126 immigrants were granted permanent legal residence into the United States last year.

The nations you mentioned? Maybe about 45,000.

The USA received more than 6.4 million applications for the 50,000 available spots in the annual Diversity Visa program (aka Green Card Lottery) last year.

Please don't tell me you believe the likes of New Zealand and Norway have numbers like that knocking on their door trying to get in.

[GiGii 4]

You and GiGii need to form the "Rose colored glasses USA Fan Club."

f-off Mox. you are the one with rose colored glasses thinking another russian lady will want your sorry pathetic "russian wannabe" self, wake up "dude". just cause visaveteran pointed out the fact that you sit on here lonely and attack those that happen to mention that you have no visa journey, is no reason to bring me into it.

You are so wishy washy, if someone says Russia is good, you point out how bad & evil it can be. Afterall you are the almighty expert. If they say how Russia is bad, you all of the sudden have a hundred arguments why its the best place on earth. Regardless if it covers 1/6th of the earth or not, you aren't there, you dont live it, and you have no one from Russia to share a life with and compare the topics discussed here. So continue on in your fantasy, your doing swell.