wait4ever

Yen coming here has certainly been interesting to say the least. Some things happend that I expected, others that I did not...but mostly, it's a wonderful thing when you are with the one you love.

Some things Yen does that bother me.

3. Yen will try and have a conversation while also eating food. Normally no big deal, but I can only understand her english when she ISN't also chewing food.

Ah, the joys of a cross-cultural relationship! I am glad to hear that you are enduring the first year so well and working through some of the rough spots and the misunderstandings.

I understand and recognize some of your peeves. By now I have spent some time living with my fiancee and her family. I don't know if you had this opportunity, but after a while you can understand the Vietnamese lifestyle and recognize some of your SO's actions or habits are based in her upbringing.

I got a real kick out of the "eating and talking" comment. For Vietnamese, meals are a very social time. Sometimes, they don't let a little food in their mouth get in the way of a good conversation. From a western standpoint, they commit a lot of faux pas. Also notable are smacking their lips while chewing, belching while chewing, and spitting bones on to the floor for the dog to eat! At the table, sometimes my sweetheart sits on the stool (the seat is tiny!) with knees to her chin and her feet also on the stool, just shoveling in the rice. I'm so used to it by now that it's actually quite entertaining. However, I know that someday she will be coming to the US and I will have to coach her a little on our western ways. Actually, she exhibits much better etiquette when we are dining with western friends, so she is on her best behavior in public.

Good luck with your relationship and the trying process of AOS. I hope you get everything ironed out. Thanks for sharing!

Why did you have to translate the police check?

Documents provided by the Vietnamese government are written in the Vietnamese language. The HCMC Consulate requires an official translation into English, which is an extra step in the process.

Now, my kids and Huong email each other, as well as my ex wife. Today, after my kids got done speaking to Huong on the phone, and them telling me that they can't wait to meet her and her son, I started thinking.

Thanks for your comments!

I agree, this is good idea. At the very least, have Huong save the e-mails between your family and herself. That does show good, legitimate ties to your family.

guys, i've been so crushed lately that I dont want to do anything. I dont think i can carry on without my fiancee. All my energy is drain. I'm seriously contemplating moving to Vietnam and live with her.

I know that "crushed" feeling all too well. It really is devasting and I have lived it more than once. You become torn and confused.

What my fiancee and I have learned to do is have a plan B. Emotionally, it's a really difficult subject to broach, but the reality of dealing with the HCMC Consulate almost makes it a neccessary thing. You have to ask the tough questions: "What if we don't get a visa", "What will we do?". So we have and it's a good thing. Instead of being left twisting in the wind on the latest unfavorable decision, we have a back up plan to put into motion. That way we can continue on with our lives and continue to grow in our relationship the best way we can given the circumstances.

I try to tell people here on VJ to separate their relationship from the visa. It's extremely hard to do, since we all visualize being together with our SO and living happily ever after. With the process running up to the interview, there is so much invested in obtaining that visa. However, if you are one of the unlucky ones to get the HCMC shaft, it really turns your world upside down. You have to return to the core of what started you down the visa path. That you love each other and want to spend the rest of your lives together. Put your relationship on a pedastal above the Consulate, where it was before they got involved. Put it up high where the Consulate can only gaze up at it. Find a way to make it work, to maintain and grow your relationship. Don't give up.

I've actually considered taking them to court and try to force them to do their jobs rather than try to dissuade people from getting married. There is a case which could be used as precedence where a guy had waited almost 8 years for his family to get their visas and join him in the states. They were having doubts about the guy's genuity and were trying to wear him down because he had presented some conflicting information in error. Anyway, the guy's family was in "additional processing" and had been there for 8 years and was able to successfully force the consulate to review his case.

Hmm... maybe I will try to find that case and ya, take them to court. This is ridiculous and makes me really mad because I feel like we are being unfairly victimized.

I believe the case you are talking about involves a "writ of mandamus". Mandamus action compels an officer or employee of the US government to perform a duty owed to the plaintiff. It does not force a decision in favor of the plaintiff, but merely compels the officer to make some sort of decision. Often, the decision is to deny after such a court action. But, at least it's a decision. Mandamus action is pursued in the Federal District Court of the plaintiff.

There is a lot of good information avaliable on the web about this. If you go to Google and type in "writ of mandamus and visa cases" you will get a good list of sites to visit where you can read more.

In brief, there are certain procedures that you must exhaust before seeking a writ of mandamus. One lawyer suggests that a writ should be pursued after one year of no answer from the Consulate. The procedure involves documenting the case and contacting the particular department with notification that a mandamus is being pursued. Most cases never make it to court as the matter is often settled during the initial contact. Bringing a case against the government involves suing the Attorney General and he doesn't like being sued for a department/agency not responding to a case.

Of course all this requires a lawyer, so it will take some money if your case actually goes to court. However, if it's solved in the early stages it may be worth the money.

It is because of incidents like this one (involving Vietnam) that places like Vietnam are so slow, it is too bad for the people who are legitimate who suffer because of it.

http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_...M.252bf61b.html

"Associated Press

In late 2004 government officials suspended requests for fiance visas for Vietnamese nationals as a precaution. The suspension was lifted the following April.

This is a very interesting bit of information I have never see or heard of before. My fiancee's case never received any kind of review in 2004. It was stuck in the same situation as sweetiewynn is in now. I wonder if this is some kind of newly de-classified info that came out of the court case.

To reiterate: the legally-binding I-864 affidavit of support is not authorized for use with K-1 cases.

They say when you use the I-864 the consulate has little room to wiggle but when you use the I-134 they can pretty much choose to recognize it or not. Well, if this is the case then ####### are they saying the I-864 is not authorized with the K-1 visa? Why does the government recommend to use this form with the I-129f if it is not authorized for use and why do they no longer accept the I-134. Does this mean there is no need for an affidavit of support at all now or what? Are they intentionally trying to misinform you/us? This is serious and I think you need to write to the consulate and ask them to correct their mistake or clarify because the way I read it they do't make any sense at all.

The Consulate's use of the word "authorized" is very interesting. Does this mean someone can or cannot use an I-864 for a K-1 case? If would be allowed then that is a huge tip for future K-1 applicants. The I-864 is required in K-1 cases when they go to AOS. Why would'nt it be allowed at the consular level? This bears some more investigation.

I am beginning to wonder if they even have an official policy or if it is all based on how much the bribe is for the consulate.

Bribery at the HCMC Consulate? I am shocked! Shocked! What do you know about this? Maybe you should start a separate thread on this subject?

You'd think there would be some sort of logic behind their system and you'd think we could hold the consulate to the same standards they hold us to as far as accuracy goes but nope, they pretty much do whatever the hell they want and should be regarded as the enemy in immigration cases. I am sick of this bullshit and ready to fight. Anyone else?

Well, I have been in the same boat as you only twice as long. Yes, I am tired of it and there needs to be some serious changes to bring into balance the procedures that effect the lives of those of us who are being bullied by Consular staff. Until we have some landmark court cases or changes to the FAM and INA, Americans and their loved ones will still be subject to official abuse. This is perhaps the darkest corner of the American government. Only those of us who are in this situation really understand the pain of this kind of official opression. Unfortunately we are an invisible minority.

Is this the sentancing phase of the Seattle ring busted in 2004, or is this a new ring that got busted? Anyone know?

What a shame we cannot have the interview NOW, as the 2004 tax return looks bloody good.

I can prove that I have taken care of my ill grandmother for the last year and a half. The question is, will they give a sh!t that I have been a good grandson?

Trust me, they won't give a damn about this. It's definately "show me the money".

Over the years I have found the Consular officers to be very interested in past years' tax returns. If I ever leave a year out, they will ask for it. Given your prior returns were better than your 2005, I would show off all you can to prove you have a history of decent income. When you get a new job, try to get as much proof as possible (letter from employer, pay stubbs). I think that will go a long ways towards covering that 2005 gap.

This is not aimed at any member. Just my two cents.

We should all know how important confidence and comfortability will be to the fiance(e) interviewing. There is no use raising the stress level before anything negative has happened.

It is still best to prepare diligently and make sure all your ducks are in order, but lets not lead ourselves - and the others that might read our posts in the future - into such dark ideas that we don't know of yet.

Everyone keep your chin up, think positive, be here to answer questions to help others prepare the best and realize that we cannot control everything.

I'll step down now!

STL_HCMC

I agree it is important for the fiance(e) to be confident and comfortable for the interview. Also important is the dilligent preparation.

I started this post to inform the Vietnam family of some of the realities that were presented to me. I have been on the inside and I can tell you from experience that all is not sweetness and light with this Consulate and the people who work there. There is a very real dark side. I hope those of you with cases coming up don't get to see that dark side. My desire would be for everyone to have a great experience all around. However, ignorance is not bliss. I don't believe in watering down information. People need to take into account the information they are getting and make their own assumptions/decisions. That's what a message board is for. Here we also express our joys, our fears, our opinions and our knowledge to pass on to others so they might benefit.

As a feifdom of the State Dept., the Consulate is a government institution. In a democracy we have certain ideals about the role and responsibily of the government to its people. When we feel the government does not serve the needs of the people in a manner we expect, there is the idea that we can express our feelings through freedom of speach. We may gather to discuss our feelings and ideas about what needs to be changed to make life better for all Americans. Inherent in our society is the belief that we can actually make changes for the better. In this forum we may also express that desire for change, for what could be.

The visa process can sometimes be a very stressful thing. We all have our bad days, like Bruce Han. You have so many things swirling around in your head you feel like your head is going to explode, only it comes out of your mouth. I can totally relate. I think the most important thing is to keep that stress out of your relationship. At the core, your relationship is not about the visa. It's about the love you feel for each other and the growth of your relationship.

The advocate's own estimate of failed marriages within or about one year was 80%. The advocate felt that only about 5% of these marriages really last long-term.

Well, awesome. So far we've beaten 80% out.

Often the immigrant SO is the one to leave and here is a common scenario for how it all unravels: After a year of marriage the immigrant SO starts staying out late at the bars or partying on the town (while the US citizen is at home). ....

I don't mean to stereotype here, but is this guy actually talking about Vietnamese women? The idea of my wife staying out late at a bar is just so incredible I cannot even imagine it. I know a few of her friends from both Vietnam and the U.S. and again, I just cannot picture it, and something like this happens in about 95% of the cases?

The advocate did not specifically indicate that this figure was for Vietnamese spouses. I got the feeling that this figure included immigrant spouses from all nations that came in under K-1 and K-3 visas. There was a definate indication that the HCMC Consulate was siezing upon this statistic in forming it's more restrictive visa policy for k-1 visas. As to whether the figure quoted to me was truly the advocate's own, or the state dept.'s, or a mix of the two I am not certain.

Recently I had a conversation with an immigration advocate, someone who counsels and assists people with a variety of immigrant and non-immigrant visas. This person has processed many visas through the HCMC Consulate and thus is very familiar with what is going on there. In representing clients, the advocate deals with the same frustrations that many of us do. The Consulate does not always answer the advocate's letters either.

We talked about what is happening lately with the new financial requirements that HCMC seems to be laying down and how the issue of co-sponsorship factors into a K-1 visa case. The advocate also has some interesting insight into the survivability of these foreign relationships. I will share with you here some of what the advocate said.

Currently there are many beneficiaries being delayed in their K-1 visa applications due to problems with the petitioner not earning "sufficient" income. What this amount is, is not exactly known. The advocate guesses the minimum might be around $18-20K per year. Because the K-1 is not an immigrant visa, the Consulate is not required to use the standards of 125% of poverty level and other methods that are allowed for an immigrant visa. The Consulate may press into service their own standards for what constitutes sufficient income. This seems to clearly be the case now.

Also at their discretion is whether or not to allow the use of a co-sponsor. Lately it seems that the Consulate is looking for every reason it can to delay/deny K-1 visa applications. Many of those with co-sponsors are seeing their cases delayed until they can show sufficient income from their own professions. HCMC seems to be turning a blind eye to most co-sponsors in K-1 cases. The advocate gave two examples of recent cases and how they were adjudicated at the HCMC Consulate.

An engineering student in his last year of study had no income and was declared as a dependent on his parent's taxes. His parents earned over $100K annually and were co-sponsors in his fiancee's application. As an engineering student he had a bright future ahead of him, or so the Consulate assumed. His fiancee's K-1 visa was approved.

A young man who was a gas station attendant was making about $14K annually. He had visited his fiancee in Vietnam six times. His parents were co-sponsors and had an annual income of over $120K. The Consulate refused to issue a K-1 visa based on his insufficient income and would not take into consideration the co-sponsorship of his parents, who clearly had more than sufficient income.

Based on the two examples given, it appears that the Consulate is discriminating between those who might make sufficient income (like a student) and a working adult who currently does not. Where co-sponsorship is concerned, the Consulate seems to be turning a blind eye to working adult petitioners. This would also answer why the Consulate has not published this policy on it's website. How they wish to view/allow the co-sponsor is still dependent on the specifics of each case.

Given the recent tightening of K-1 visas issue due to income requirements, the advocate will no longer prepare K-1 visa applications for clients earning less than $24K per year. This is the threshold where the advocate feels that income is at a sufficiently safe level to clear any hurdles related to income.

Another topic covered was that of significant delays for some K-1 visa cases for which there appears to be no legitimate reasons. Some couples they just don't want to give visas to and despite jumping through all the paperwork hoops, the Consulate always has a new technicality to hang them up on. The reasons given can be quite strange, or just extra picky where they would not be applied to the cases of others. These cases are in effect held hostage at the Consulate. Lacking the evidence sufficient to stand up to a denial were the case returned to the US service center, the HCMC Consulate resorts to hanging up the case on technicalities, stringing it along until the couple breaks up and withdraws the application, or fails to submit the new information requested. This dirty trick is perfectly legal. An example given was that a couple would be strung along with a series of blue/green slips. After submitting all the information requested in a sufficient manner, the Consular officers ended it in this way: "Your I-129F (I797) is expired". Whereas they extended the I-129F while they were stringing the case along, their final tactic was to declare the petition expired. This too is also at their discretion.

If that's not disturbing enough, the advocate had some dismal things to say about the success of marriages between US citizen petitioners and their immigrant SOs. It is believed that this is part of the reason why HCMC is tightening up on K-1 visas issued.

The advocate's own estimate of failed marriages within or about one year was 80%. The advocate felt that only about 5% of these marriages really last long-term.

Often the immigrant SO is the one to leave and here is a common scenario for how it all unravels: After a year of marriage the immigrant SO starts staying out late at the bars or partying on the town (while the US citizen is at home). When the immigrant SO returns home, an argument ensues. The idea is that the US citizen strikes the immigrant SO, although it does not always happen. The SO starts crying and then walks out into street and sits on the curb, sobbing. The neighbors come out and ask what has happened. The SO alleges tht the US citizen has struck her. The neighbor calls the police, they show up, a report of physical abuse is filed and then it all goes down hill from there. An immigrant SO who can prove they have been physically abused can appeal to stay in the US. There are many other ways for an immigrant to gain legal status after divorcing a US citizen petitioner, even if it falls outside of the AOS rules.

I was just wondering how can some of you deal with the loneliness?

The Consulate has been delaying our visa for close to three years now. We have received so many blue slips I have lost count. I get to see my fiancee an average of once a year.

I won't sugar coat it, it's a very painful situation to be in. I have experienced bouts of fear, depression, anger and rage (internal) for what seems a very long time.

When people are in opressive situations with little control they develop methods for thinking that strenghten their mental resolve. I found that emphasizing growth in our relationship through regular communication really helped. When we talk. I try not to spend too much time lementing about the situation and focus on communicating my love and devotion to her. When she expresses fear, I am understanding but use that opportunity to remind her that we are in this for the long haul.

A method I use to keep fear from encroaching on my thoughts is to divide the idea of us together as dependant upon a visa, from our own relationship. Our relationship is something between only us, and as long as we tend it with love, hope and patience it will survive this process. There is no room for the Consulate in our relationship. Although it effects our relationship by preventing physical presence, it does not stop us from loving each other. The visa is another thing separate from our relationship.

It also helps to minimize the importance of the Consulate and the immigration process (in your mind). You have to look at your life together as a long timeline. Assuming that you plan to spend the rest of your lives together, how long would that line be? Now how much of that timeline will be consumed with this awful, drawn-out process. Two years, four years, out of how long a life from this point?,fifty+? If you think of the Consulate or the process as a slow, dark thunderstorm moving over your head, you know that eventually it will pass, and the storm will go along and rain on someone else.

I hope this helps. It's never easy, but all you can do is learn to cope. Get up every day and just go about your life as best as you can in this situation. What more could you do?

In my opinion, you should skip the ring and have an engagement party before her interview. It is more important I think to have the engagement party, rather than a ring. Think of it this way, a ring won't get her the visa, but an engagement ceremony might make the difference between denial and approval.

Unfortunately, her family EXPECTS that I give a ring at the Dam Hoi. That is simply impossible, as I cannot afford both. Anh tried to explain, but did not want her family to think I am poor and cannot take care of her. It is such a delicate matter.

So Anh and I really have no choice. It's the ring and that's that. We have to risk it. What is the alternative? A Dam Hoi where I lose face. Anh loses face. Her parents lose face.

Boy that is really interesting that you say if you don't have an expensive ring at the engagement ceremony her family loses face. I'll try not to read too much into that, but I even asked my wife about this, and she undeniably, unquestionably agrees with scy. The ceremony is more important than the ring. I'll admit right here that I spent much less on the engagement ring than you plan to, and her family still thought I spent too much. But the idea of not having that ceremony was just out of the question, and for her family's sake, it had nothing to do with bettering our chances of getting the visa approved.

A ring is a thing. In a wedding the pastor calls it a "symbol of your devotion". Although it may symbolize your committment to each other, it is still just a thing, and in the context of proving your relationship I would say is not rock solid (excuse the pun). Yes, a ring is necessary in a ceremony, but something so expensive that gets in the way of affording a ceremony may undermine what you are trying to achieve here.

So let me get this straight. You will be having a Dam Hoi or Dinh Hon down the road but before she has her interview, right?

The Vietnamese, being very famiy oriented, place an importance upon the comittment that is derived from the engagement ceremony. It's also a part of their face in the community. It says a lot to the family when you step up to the plate by committing in a ceremony.

The Consulate knows this is a part of their tradition, and many of us believe that it is almost expected by the Consular officers. My fiancee and I did not have a Dinh Hon before her first interview. We rushed it and the Consulate has sent us down the road of hell ever since. I didn't know any better at the time.

We had our Dinh Hon after she got blue slipped. It was a wonderful event and really served to solidify our relationship under the pressure we faced from the Consulate. It was a bonding experience with her family too, and this is really an important aspect.

Based on my experience, I would highy recommend that having any kind of ceremony prior to her interview will not only serve you better in that process, but also create a better bond between you, your fiancee, and her family.

Alright, someone please translate this. Thanks.

I thought you said you were born in Vietnam! You never learned to read the language?

Many Viet kieu who have grown up in the US speak fluent Vietnamese but can't read a word of the written language. It's true.

Here is a very interesting article about HCMC Consulate's rejection of a medical visa to an orphan child from Marcus Kabel, Associated Press Writer:

(excerpt)

...after successful adoptions and charity work, the Kargeses of Joplin and the Copes have run into an unexpected barrier to their joint effort to help a six-year-old Vietnamese orphan boy get urgent medical help in Missouri that he can't get in Vietnam.

The US government has refused to issue a medical visa or a humanitarian waiver for Tuan Van Cao, even though the Kargeses and the Copes have lined up private funding to cover all expenses to treat a botched operation on the boy's diseased left hip that left him with a potentially fatal bone infection.

Despite submitting written opinions from US and Vietnamese doctors that Tuan needs urgent help that he cannot get in Vietnam, the families have been told to try the lengthy processing of international adoption, which can take a year or more.

>>>Full story-http://www.asianreporter.com/stories/national/2006/10-vietorphan.htm

I was talking with an immigration attorney recently and he stated that the HCM Consulate was returning joint-sponsor paperwork to his clients who had K-1 applications pending. It seemed to be an across-the-board application of this new policy. In other words, all cases reviewed after the first of the year dissallowed any joint-sponsor whether they had been received before the first of the year or after.

It seems the HCM Consulate or the State Dept. did not bother to notify the public and I have yet to see this policy posted on their website. Does anyone know the basis-in-law for applying such a policy?

I have heard of this same policy being implemented at the Phillipine Consulate. I imagine this is done to stem the tide of fiancee visa applications, and exclude certian nationalities and races that the State Dept. does not want to let in the US.

I seem to recall an old post here on VJ, where HCMC was asking for the birth certificates of the ex-wifes's parents!, or some totally crazy thing like that. Anyone remember that? I've seen posts where they ask for some pretty crazy information concerning ex-spouses.

It would be good idea to find out which representative devotes staff to following up with immigration cases. Some do, and some don't, it depends on your Congressional representative. You might call their office and at least feel them out on this, ask some "what if" questions, etc. They probably won't be interested in monitoring your case until there are problems, usually after the interview. They are already busy trying to coax answers out of the Consulates for the many cases they already have. Most likely the staff of representative's offices are acutely aware of the fraud in certain countries and also the frustration of dealing with the Consular corps.

Yes, three years and still waiting. We have been victims of exceptionally bad treatment and service at the HCM Consulate. Not all cases take as long as ours, but I hear wait times are on the way up. I hope your case and those of others do not suffer the same kind of service we have received. Good luck and stick with it.

There is a great old thread about this subject from member "ellis island", for those of you who can remember his great posts on dealing with the HCM Consulate. In Vietnam, the engagement ceremony is part of their tradition and I think the HCM Consulate almost expects it.

The statement of single status and it's english translation has always been required of us, and given our three year wait at this Consulate we have had to provide this document twice now.

There is a point at which showering your sweetheart with expensive gifts creates a gross difference in lifestyle between your sweetheart and the rest of her family. Especially if the family is poor, lavish amounts spent on just her might create some resentment among other family members. This can acutally make it uncomfortable for her. It also takes the focus away from the relationship with her and her family, and places too much emphasis on material posessions. This can also change the way the family views you, from regular guy to "rich American".

It sounds like she comes from a family without lavish expectations. I would play it conservative and buy something more affordable now. In the future you will have the chance to spoil her, perhaps something better done in the US anyway, when she will develop expectations. Also, given the importance of including family in your celebration, you might want to think more about applying your money to making sure there is plenty of food, drink, a good photographer, etc. Long after she joins you in the US, the family will still be showing off the wedding pictures and watching the video over and over.

It would be interesting to hear what OSHA has to say about this tactic. I don't have a problem with deporting illegal immigrants, but I can see how this might have an effect on workplace safety. What the immigration advocates are trying to say is that distrust of OSHA safety among immigrants may lead to serious safety incidents not being reported. The downside of this is that workplace safety might suffer for the illegals and the US citizens working with them, if there was a fear of reporting incidents to OSHA or of participating in safety training.