Ihavequestions

Things one can learn about Muslim marriage from this thread:

Being married to a Muslim is a contest - the rules are vague but the goal is to be seen as the couple most pleasing to god.

The rules that I have managed to understand so far:

Being a muslim man married to a non muslim women is pleasing to god. If you are a muslim man, accusing non muslim women married to muslim men of being unislamic is pleasing to god.

Being a non muslim woman married to a muslim man is not pleasing to god, except when it is. If you are in this position and you are the non musilm woman, agressively defending yourself against naysayers is pleasing to god. It is particularly pleasing if you can insult the naysayer, feel sorry for their spouse (wife) and pray the wife has a happy marriage (clearly the wife will not!).

Couples are at all times encouraged to defend their own marriages while at the same time spitting on the marriage of others. It is especially pleasing to god if you can insinuate that some one elses marriage wasn't a blessed union entered into because of mutual attraction and love but just a way to have sex without eliciting the wrath of god.

If you have researched the Quran and can use its text to boastfully claim that only you are worthy to enter into a truly sacred marraige, this is very pleasing to god.

If you can cut and paste long, disjointed passages from the internet that appear to suggest that you are right, this is pleasing to god.

There is more but I am still learning.

Sorting it all out for the rest of us who can't figure out what this is all about is also pleasing to God.

we are here talking about muslim people not about non-muslim people,because they believe other thing like : LOVE.RELATIONSHIP.BOYFRIEND.GIRLFRIEND.SEX.AND OTHER THINGS....

That's a rather sweeping generalization, don't you think?

It's also rather accusatory.

I am not Muslim so I will not speak for Islam. I am, however, Roman Catholic and quite happy to discuss my faith and how The Holy Bible guides my life.

Is this something you are at all curious about? If so, I would be happy to have an open and honest dialog about my religion and my faith because I think there is some kind of misunderstanding about how people of other faiths live.

Sound good?

The best thing is to use one of the old outfits that fits you well.

Take it apart and trace it onto brown paper. Then you'll have a template for other salwar kamiz.

I love Salwar kamiz (also known as Churidar or Punjabi suits) and wear them alot. But I get them tailored in India rather than buying the ready-made ones. The ready-made ones often have hideous patterns and are about as flattering as a potato sack.

Do you buy them online? If so, where?

So now everyone can be quiet about my marraige!!!

Why should we be quiet about it when you won't?

I talked to people before i did !

Who? Someone mislead you and in a horrible, horrible way.

I don't think you realize the extent of the problems your paper marriage has created.

Do you understand that, in Egypt:

You have no right to dissolve your "contract" marriage relationship because only the husband has that right, and he can do that any time he chooses?

You have no right to a government-issued birth certificate for your child because it was born of your "contract" marriage?

You have no right to be your husband's only wife because your "contract" marriage cannot contain this clause?

You have no right to travel freely because your "contract" marriage cannot contain this permission?

You have no right to support for either yourself or your child because your "contract" marriage is not legal and binding?

I know my marraige is done right!

We will have a wedding when he comes again in the mosque not by court here!To have it registered.

If your marriage is "done right," why do you have to do it again? Oh, that's right. You have to do it again because it was not "done right," and you know that.

I wish you luck finding any marriage officiant who will freely participate in your charade.

I ask questions before I do anything. There are reasons why we couldnt by the court. You have heard them all.

Again, who? And, again, someone has horribly mislead you.

The other option, the one that you would not and did not take, that being the right one, was to wait. You could have gone back to the States and waited for your fiance visa (which you are supposed to be doing anyway), then marry. You did not. Instead, you went to an attorney who drew up a contract that stripped you of rights you would have had under a legal marriage and you signed it. Then, either because knew and chose to ignore OR because you were believed whatever garbage someone handed you about your "contract" marriage OR because you were oblivious to the ramifications, you chose to play house and live like a married couple - in Egypt only because that's the only place your "contract" marriage has some legitimacy. To complicate the matter, a child has been thrown into the sordid mess.

Also the flat in Egypt is in my name.

And you know that ... how? Because the same lawyer who took your money in order to arrange the "contract" marriage told you? Again, who told you this?

My friend talked to a Imam today and told him about this site and what people are saying. He said yes my marraige is accepted Islamically.

Why don't you go directly to an Imam - an Egyptian Imam - yourself, spill the entire story, and then come back here and tell us what the Imam says.

Mohamed needs to bring our contract when he comes.

So far Mohamed has struck me as a pretty smart guy, one who is smart enough to know that if his luggage gets tossed and a signed marriage "contract" is discovered, his cover will be blown and he will be refused entry.

Children are very important in a muslim mans life. Very much!

How does stereotyping support your claim?

Besides, if children were and are so important, why would you put your son in the position you have? Really, the thought of mommy and daddy paying hefty, hefty fines, incarceration, and deportation would be enough for me to WAIT and marry the legal and proper way. But maybe that's just me.

I am a bit confused about this question of Mohammed's. Is there something in the Quran that makes the marriage of a younger man to an older woman haram? If not then why is that being asked?

since there nothing in quran that make my marriage haram so why asking lol

u just understand that !!!! too late

So in other words the question is merely to side track the topic, correct?

It appears so.

i respect your opinion jakie but u think such young boy wont want kids to carry his name and if he didnot his familly will let him do that i am talking about arabic famillies for sure

and i just asked to know her opinion in that

FYI, Arabic is a language.

In the end, if Mohamed is a stand-up man, he likely would do better by Melinda in the event of divorce than she could ever expect with an dishonorable man with a registered marriage.

You can't get divorced until you are married.

Oh, VW, you are soooooo not wrong and I (who did not read closely) was so not right.

I hate when that happens.

So what about countries where the state/govt itself routinely fails to enforce the contract, particularly the rights of women, as is the case in Egypt.

The state/govt of Egypt will, of course, enforce a legal and binding contract. The problem is these contracts are not legal and binding because, in order to be legal in Egypt, the marriage has to be registered with the government. Legal marriages - anywhere - include rights and responsibilities. No court will protect a right or enforce a responsibility that is not legally there to begin with, no matter where we are on the planet. Women who are legally married in Egypt have rights. It is the women who are not legally married who don't.

In the end, if Mohamed is a stand-up man, he likely would do better by Melinda in the event of divorce than she could ever expect with an dishonorable man with a registered marriage.

I agree.

Did they stop marriages then start them again? Does other countries do this?

For a time the U.S. government stopped providing a document required by the Egyptian government.

i never said that was legal marriage

thats religios marriage . see muslim concern only by religious marriage we went to the court to make it leagal they refused as usa wasnot allow that

so we marrried islamically till they allow it . then they allow it year later we were already filed k1 visa

for all non muslim islamic halal marriage is offer and accept and 2 witness . say islamic saying as both couple accept each other to marray. dowery given to the wife . then you write the contract and the wife can put the condition she want in it then to make it known for all poeple by party or any way

so all the poeple around you know this woman is wife of this man

after this the marriage is halal and legally and halal 100% in Allah eyes.

So is it a legal marriage or not? Is it correct that it has never been registered? I understand we have a language barrier here and this is not clear to me.

One big difference between Islamic law and Anglo-American law is that the latter does recognize common-law marriages in some circumstances as just as legally binding as a marriage.

I agree with the point-of-view that the foundation of U.S. law is English/British common-law which, at that particular time in history, was religious law because there was no separation.

She'd probably have a pretty good case for half the house.

One could hope.....

And you're absolutely right that it wouldn't be a marriage, and as such wouldn't be automatically subject to the same legal wonkery in the event of the relationship terminating. And she certainly wouldn't be filing for a divorce.

Thank you for the affirmation.

Okay. You all are right. Let's remove the names of specific individuals (because that is where the hurting starts) and discuss the issue at hand.

With that, let's look at the following scenario:

Two USCs want to marry. They enter an attorney's office in their hometown and sign a contract that says they agree they are married, in front of two witnesses. They go home, have a little "We agreed we're married!" party with their families and move on with their married life, which eventually includes children.

Some years later, husband has a mid-life crisis, quits his job, buys a red Corvette, and starts dating a woman half his age. The agreed-to marriage is now a train wreck and she's so outta there. The missus wants the children, child support for the children, alimony (spousal support), and half of all of their material possessions - the house, bank account, mini-van, family pets, silverware, all of it. In order to enforce what she believes are her rights as a woman who agreed to be married, she takes her copy of the contract into the courthouse and asks a judge for a divorce and to give her what she believes she is entitled to.

How well do you suppose that "agreement" would hold up in court?

It wouldn't because a signed statement does not make a legal marriage. At best this couple simply "put in writing" they would be living together as if they were married.

At minimum, marriage in the U.S. requires a license (permission) and an officiant to perform a ceremony in which the couple are pronounced man/husband and wife - and that pronouncement is the moment when the couple becomes husband and wife. The marriage must be recorded in the local courthouse where becomes a matter of public record. No matter who performs the ceremony or where it occurs, be it a religious official in a place of worship or a government official in a government building (i.e., court house), every legal marriage in the U.S. contains those same elements: permission, the pronouncement, and a legal record.

Are you with me so far?

I hope so because here lies the problem.

Because there was never a legal marriage, this couple would not end their relationship with divorce. Instead, the wife would go about claiming her rights (custody and, if she's lucky or has a really sympathetic judge, "Pal"-imony) and the rights of her children (child support) by filing a series of law suits. Custody of the children, child support, and "Pal"-imony would be handled in a family court and a civil suit (think: Judge Judy) would have to remedy the rest. And, because, in the U.S., children born of a marriage are legally the husband's children and this is not a legal marriage, this wife is now in the position where she has to establish paternity and the man she agreed she was married to could argue the question right up to the DNA results. What could have been solved with one legal action becomes a series of actions quite quickly, all of which require money to claim as well as defend.

Marriage is NEVER simply an act before God. It is ALWAYS a legal matter, no matter what country's soil is under a couple's feet when they marry.

From the U.S. Embassy (Cairo) Consular Section which is certainly a must-read for every U.S. citizen planning to marry an Egyptian: "The only legal marriage for foreigners in Egypt is a civil ceremony performed at the local marriage court, which is in accordance with Islamic practice. Persons wishing a religious ceremony may arrange for one separately, but it is the civil ceremony that establishes the legal marriage."

"Court." Not an attoney's office. A court. Big difference.

While I can understand there have been problems which prohibited USCs from marrying Egyptians, I cannot understand the belief that, because they couldn't legally do something, convincing themselves they found an alternative legal solution somehow makes it legal when neither individuals or couples make law but only legislators.

(Sorry for the blathering. I'm tired this morning and really wanted to spend some time in this discussion because I do think it's important before the thread locked.)

Well I think both sides have pretty much presented their arguments.

I'm not quite done. On the other thread, I asked melinda and mohammed a question: Who is in possession of their marriage papers?

So, mohamed N melinda (both): Who is in possession of your "marriage papers"? Do you each have a copy?

I may be on insult-intake overload, bro, with all that coming at me. I read the response as sarcasm. Rereading, it's clear I owe Ihave questions an apology for the misunderstanding.

I am so sorry! Sincerely, Sofi

Thank you.

yeah I understand the problem with the consulate there, but then my question would be, why not just file the K1 and wait until your fiance gets here to do the whole legal/spiritual marriage like everyone else who files a K1?

Conversely, why marry in a MENA country without knowing what you're getting yourself into? Both religion and law govern marriages. Sure, make absolutely sure your marriage is "right" within your own faith. However, isn't it just as important to look at the legal implications of a marriage?

I have used proof, but it's all over 3 threads.

Are you speaking to me? I'm not going to read/re-read three entire threads in order to be sure, but I don't recall much in the way of guesswork on your part. You're one of the few, the proud, the FACTUAL. You are also one of the few capable of separating culture, religion, what "my husband" says, and whatever "the internet" says.

Ok, so what do you I owe you because you don't process what you read very well?

Nada.

Nothing, but I do promise I will never publicly agree with you again.

I have used proof, but it's all over 3 threads.

Are you speaking to me? I'm not going to read/re-read three entire threads in order to be sure, but I don't recall much in the way of guesswork on your part. You're one of the few, the proud, the FACTUAL. You are also one of the few capable of separating culture, religion, what "my husband" says, and whatever "the internet" says.

VW your facts will always weigh more than the (in my opinion or i guess, or i think) BUT in the end each will only still have the mind set they were born and raised with. You presented the facts now just let all make their own choices as they see for themselves, thats all anyone can do with something like this.

why do her facts weigh more? Because she's better at English? Trust me if Mohammed's english were more eloquent it would be a better debate but VW has the upper hand only because of her English ability. It's totally not a fair debate when one's mother tongue is not English and that's the only language available to debate in.

No, it's not that. I believe you misinterpreted what was said and I'm addressing it because I believe that's the crux of the problem with this thread.

"VW your facts will always weigh more than the (in my opinion or i guess, or i think)" means just that: Facts prove a point whereas statements such as "in my opinion," or "I guess," or "I think" won't. I can walk into my doctor's office and tell him "in my opinion" or "I guess" or "I think" I have a specific health problem, but my doctor would not - and should not! - take my opinion, guess, or thought on face value and start treating the affliction I presented. Instead, my doctor will run a series of tests, lay out a set of facts, then make a learned diagnosis. I could not take seriously any physician who would take my own self-assessments seriously. I want a doctor who will examine evidence and then costruct a proper course of treatment. I have standards about the quality of health care I expect. The very same set of standards, if not higher standards, should be set for anyone who questions the validity of someone's act of faith/acting within their faith. If someone questioned me do not doubt that I, too, would insist on a finger pointed to specific words in my Book that prove I'm wrong. We have that duty to ourselves and we have that duty to God.

This thread has become a whole lot of "in my opinion" and "I guess" and "I think" (usually followed by a series of attacks) and very little - if any - facts to support opinions, guesses, and whatever someone may think. It's such a shame, too. Not entirely because of the ugliness (Who said, "God doesn't make ugly"?!) but because, IN MY OPINION, sisters have a duty to look out for each other. Not just Muslim sisters, or Christian sisters, but all sisters.

Could we have a little more love, please?

And bobcorn. I'm out. And broke.

Anybody want bobcorn? I'm buying.

My hesitation marrying a MENA man?

The viciousness of the women they tend to attract.

This thread proves my point.

Tammy - Please accept my best wishes as you make your way through this time of trouble, no matter what you decide to do or why you decide to do it.

Ooooooooooooooooooooh. Thank you thank you thank you.

We'd have been sunk.

Okay, back to the original question: What level of English will the immigration interview require?

/Man! I'm glad I found this place.

My apologies, but we aren't in the process at all ... yet.

He is in Egypt. I am in the US. We will be married, in Egypt, this summer. So far the plan is a Consular filing.

How important is a spouse's level of English during the interview? My fiance speaks pretty good English (or we wouldn't have gotten as far as the fiance stage, right?). He is also enrolled in classes and working very hard to improve. My concern is whether he has to be proficient during the interview. Does anyone know from experience?