groovlstk

Understood, but what I mean is that a woman who is predisposed to going after the next best thing is going to do it no matter what her stated motives. With any marriage, especially of the K variety, you go in with certain expectations. Those expectations may be a loving relationship, or one of convenience as Chuckles describes. In either case, there is a trust factor. A woman who professes to love you is not going to be any more or less trustworthy than a woman who agrees to a marriage of convenience.

The devil's in the details, of course. Sure a woman who professes to love you can be lying. By taking the time to get to know her before proposing, however, you can at least mitigate this risk. I haven't seen anyone posting here who willingly married a Russian woman knowing it was a marriage of convenience, and IMHO any guy so p****whipped to beg for a role as a sperm bank with a checkbook just to have the attention of a pretty Russian wife deserves the sad fate that certainly awaits him.

FWIW, I realized when I proposed to my wife that we had additional risks due to culture and language. As you can probably guess from my posts I'm fairly skeptical, but when I slipped the ring on her finger there was absolutely no doubt in my mind that she loved me (and to this day I still don't understand how she could have fallen for a bum like me).

(AFAIK, there was nothing in the OP's tale that indicated his friend was willing to marry for convenience, so this discussion is purely hypothetical.)

Happy? Maybe for a short time. Unless a guy's extraordinarily wealthy, what's to prevent his Russian wife from upgrading once she arrives in the land of plenty? Not much! If she's young and attractive she'll have plenty of suitors to choose from when she's here.

Not sure I understand the point. This could be said of any marriage.

I'd thought it was obvious, but a woman who actually loves you isn't going to be constantly on the lookout to upgrade her relationship. A woman who marries simply for a $better lifestyle$ has nothing, outside of the material comforts you provide, to keep her from straying.

Is she marrying him for the money? Probably.

If that bothers him, then he needs to leave. If it doesn't bother them, they can still be happy.

No point in judging people. Love is not always the cornerstone of marriage. That is a modern, western ideal.

Happy? Maybe for a short time. Unless a guy's extraordinarily wealthy, what's to prevent his Russian wife from upgrading once she arrives in the land of plenty? Not much! If she's young and attractive she'll have plenty of suitors to choose from when she's here.

I also have 2cents to offer.

In the world outside of VJ where people meet, decide to get married without government approval cold feet is common. Its not new, people panic about the commitment and what is to come. From moving one town to another, one state to another or even just learning to live together, the unkown can be scarey. It doesn't mean they don't love the other person in the relationship.

You're absolutely right, but in the world outside of VJ people who meet and decide to get married usually know each other fairly well before deciding to make such a serious commitment.

If your fiancee backed out of your engagement and phoned to discuss it with you, would you have your friends listen in on the conversation so that they can give their opinions on how sincere she is?

I see one has to be careful what they post on the Russian forum. I hear swords being drawn.

My intent was to make a joke with an element of truth to it. Don't think it's naive to look at public transportation where it's available, walking to the restaurant and giving old Nelly Belle a rest in the garage, or getting good exercise and transportation at the same time on a nice mountain bike.

I realize for most your suggestion isn't an option, but my wife and I live in the NYC area and we both rely on our feet and the subway for transportation, 24/7. I have a car but use it only on weekends to visit friends, etc., and every couple of months my wife decides she's going to take the driver's exam but loses interest after a day of studying. If her experience in driving a snowmobile last Winter was any indication, the local driving population ought to be very grateful

I don't think it is hogwash to the OPs friend. I believe we in America really underestimate the influence of friend/family opinion on Eastern Europeans. We apply our standards, and don't get the picture sometimes. While I see the same possible relationship issues here that you do, I think they stem from a legitimate fear of leaving a very comfortable situation (in terms of long term relationships and familiar surroundings) and taking a great risk with the happiness of her and her kids. All that doesn't negate the problem we all see though.

I have no doubt that there is a high level of anxiety for any woman contemplating leaving her family, friends, language, and country behind. But I see so many similarities to other crash n' burns that I suspect there's a lot more going on.

My apologies to Bruc for picking at his posts, I don't mean to attack the messenger, but do any of you married guys see the following quote as strange?

This took several phones call to her from a lot of people discussing this with her.

She sent her fiance a sms and told him to call her and he did. Some of us know the conversation and heard the conversation between them including the two girls from Russia.

Would you have other people contact your fiancee - the woman you love and plan to spend the rest of your life with - and when she finally agrees to talk, have others (who are probably strangers to her) listen in on the conversation?

My wife and I had plenty of disagreements and issues in the days leading up to her interview, some of which gave her second thoughts, but never in a million years would I have considered having a "Russian friend" contact her and act as an intermediary. Not only were our squabbles no one else's damn business, but my wife would have seen such behavior as weak and indecisive, which in turn would have only made matters worse.

I sincerely hope things work out for Bruc's friend and his fiancee and I apologize for being cynical, but sometimes a guy in this situation can use a dose of reality from his friends rather than "support." Sometimes it's really difficult for guys who are also involved in the K1 process to see another pilgrim entwined with the wrong type of woman, as the first instinct is to think, "damn, this could be happening to me too and I just don't realize it yet." So then the most palatable option is to rationalize the obvious problems and blow sunshine up his butt.

It didn't have anything to do with love and trust. She loves him and trust him but she wasn't so sure about our country and what the future held even the possibility of her fiance eventually being unemployed and not being able to support them. I certainly understand this and you should also because the only real person that knows your future is your employer and you never know when you might get walking papers yourself.

Sorry, but I believe this is hogwash.

Whenever I see one of these relationships go up in smoke - and I've seen many, including my own years ago when I was courting a Ukrainian woman - the guy's first instinct is to ignore reality and pin the blame on anything other than the obvious fact that his girl simply never loved him and never will, and that her motivation for marrying him was not in the best of his interests. Time and again I've watched guys try to squirm out from under the weight of logic and blame controlling parents who don't want her to leave Russia/Ukraine, pessimistic and jealous friends who spread rumors of a horrible life awaiting her in the US, fear of retribution from ex-husbands, etc. The list goes on and on. It's hard to except the reality that his girl is trying to let him down as easily as possible and the alternative of believing her story is a million times better than accepting the fact that she's been playing him for a fool all along.

My original comment was mostly facetious, quite frankly it would be a nightmare to have a CO probe into the specifics of a relationship in order to determine whether or not to issue a visa. (I believe they DO practice this to a very limited extent, however.)

To play devil's advocate, upthread Turboguy complained that his ex-fiancee had the interview from h*ll at the Moscow embassy. TG, since that K1 didn't work out, do you not think the CO might have had more than an inkling that things would go belly up for you both very quickly?

To get back on topic... my wife was really nervous for her interview and initially asked that it be conducted in Russian. However, the CO who interviewed her spoke fairly lousy Russian so my wife switched to English (much to the CO's relief).

I disagree. The C/O's main purpose is to ascertain if the petitioner and beneficiary are complying with the law in terms of getting the visa applied for. They're not there to be the "marriage police" or screen for possible marital problems down the road.

Then why do the COs ask questions like "what is your husband's profession?" or "what is your fiance's father's name?" when all that proof is documented within the petition that sits on his desk during the interview? It seems they do have a role - albeit very limited - in determining that there is a basis for a relationship beyond vacation photos together, emails, and copies of boarding passes. Or am I incorrect?

And truthfully, if they were, then none of us would've gotten a visa because marrying someone from a foreign country that you barely know has all the makings of disaster. So does marrying someone from right next door. Over half the marriages in the U.S. end in divorce so strictly speaking, they could deny everyone!

There's a difference between marrying someone you've never spent more than two weeks at a time with and marrying a complete stranger. I know guys who've used marriage agencies and caved under pressure from the agency owner who insisted that it's perfectly appropriate - indeed expected - for an American to propose to one of his girls after spending 3-4 days together, despite the fact that she can't speak a word of English I'd be willing to bet that the standard 50% divorce rate nearly doubles under such circumstances.

While I agree with that statement, I was simply referring to unnecessary abusive, condescending, or general poor treatment. I would think that the obvious non-legit applicants tend to stand out.

Funny enough, my wife had nothing but praise for the American employees at the Moscow embassy, particularly her CO. It was the Russian employees who checked to make sure all the applicants had their docs in order prior to their interviews who treated everyone shabbily.

If they are gone, then that is a good thing. These ladies do not need any more undue stress!

Considering the number of failures I'd say that the COs should be more inquisitive - they'd save time, money, and heartache for many involved in this pursuit who choose to marry virtual strangers after a few days of face time together.

I'm also highly anticipating HBO's Generation Kill that comes out next month. I loved the FX original show Over There but for some reason it was only on for one season. Hopefully Generation Kill will take over where it left off.

I saw a screening of the first episode of Gen Kill, it's awesome. It's going to be a 7-part series; movies and series about Iraq have been a huge bust for most studios, but HBO isn't beholden to advertisers or ratings as much as other networks.

If you have HBO, look for the movie PU-239. Don't be put off by the odd title!

It's about a Russian husband and father who works in a Russian nuke plant during the 90s. Things are falling apart and he's warned management that the conditions are unsafe. The unthinkable happens and he's exposed to a lethal dose of radiation. Instead of helping him the plant managers fire him. He knows he's a dead man walking and steals a portion of weapons grade plutonium in hopes of selling it in Moscow to provide for his family when he's gone.

It's tremendously sad and brutal, and funny in parts. I can't believe I was actually rooting for him to sell the stuff before the end of the movie

If you're not from around here it takes some getting used to and it's not the chili you want to be eating out on the trail (has kind of a White Castle after-effect) but it sure is good for chili-cheese-coneys (hot dogs with chili and cheese) during the game.

A few weeks ago, on our way back from a birthday party for some of our Russian friends, we were driving past a White Castle and I felt that irresistable pull.

The b-day party was great but the food wasn't to my taste - too much smoked fish, caviar, and holadyets, so I was hungry.

Anyway, my wife was silent while we went through the drive-through and I ordered a sack. But as we were pulling out of the drive-through, she couldn't hold back any longer: "why did you order TEN gamburgers????"

I laughed the rest of the ride home and showed her how small the burgers are. And yes, I paid for it the next day, but it was worth it.

However, when it gets to the point of causing stress..... it's time to bust out that playstation.

My wife and I sometimes play 1 on 1 in Call of Duty IV on our PS3. She's so funny, we'll be having dinner and she'll suddenly say (oh-so-innocently), "let's shoot each other tonight."

Although my wife has met a few Russian women that will not, absolutely not return to Russia for any reason, even to visit family members. This she atributes to their total embracement of American attitudes, chasing the almighty buck and striving to get ahead. Who knows.

Strangely enough, before I met my wife I dated a lot of Russian women living in the US. Many arrived here on K1s and divorced, and were extremely bitter about Americans and American life in general. If I was a safe enough distance away I'd always follow up by asking, "if you aren't happy here, why don't you return home?" I never got a straight answer.

Dealing w/the USCIS and logistics of all this is cake compared with the actual marriage part. The accounts of others, particularly during the adjustment period, are ultimately more valuable than anything else you read here.

Fetisov is awesome, I've played with Kasatonov who also was part of devils when Fetisov played. I have few pics with Fetisov which I treasure dearly!

You know then that Fetisov and Kasatonov had a big falling out before coming to the US? When they both played for the NJ Devils, they refused to speak or acknowledge each other to the point where it drove their teammates crazy. The team would have to split into two separate groups when going out to restaurants, etc. because they refused to go out together. I'd always hoped that they'd reconcile someday...

Kasatonov was the better player at that point in their careers but Fetisov had the stones to rebel against the Soviet system without defecting. I remember reading about how much he hated the successful Red Army coach, Viktor Tikhanov, because he felt he was responsible for the death of a friend and teammate (I believe his name was Valeri Kharlamov). Tikhanov controlled every aspect of his players' lives, including how often they saw their wives and children. At one point Kharlamov was in Tikhanov's doghouse and when he asked that repairs be made to his car's brakes, Tikhanov refused. Soon after Kharlmov died in an auto accident when his brakes failed.

I've skated a few times before, and I used to be really into street hockey as a kid. I learned how to skate using hockey ice skates, and when i went to Russia and skated with figure skates I was informed that I skated boy-style, like you do when you wear hockey skates. I didn't even know there were boy and girl skating styles. maybe if i learned girl-skating, I could walk like a Russian on ice.

I've played ice hockey for more than 30 years, although since my wife arrived I haven't had the proper time to devote to it (and most likely never will...).

One of the highlights of my hockey days was playing with Slava Fetisov during summers when he was part of the NJ Devils team and wanted to stretch his legs before training camp began. He was mostly past his prime when he left the Red Army team to play in the NHL, but all the players who followed him in later years should kiss his feet for blazing the trail.

Of course i know that russians wear their rings on their right hand. My mom did as well.

For the record, I also have single male russian friends who hooked up with said married girls. The attitude about married people seems to be, male or female, is that their marital issues are not your business and if someone is cheating it just means their marriage is bad and it's not immoral to sleep with them. This is what people in russia have said to me about this issue. This one woman i know accused her boyfriend's wife of stealing "her" man.

I hope you remembered that Russians wear their wedding rings on the right hand. Nonetheless, seeing a ring on someone's hand and making judgments about them is weak in my view. Unless you actually know their martial status, you can't really be sure of very much.

And maybe some were married but separated, as can be the case in the USA. I've seen US women I know were separated still wearing their rings...what does that really tell me?

This may be a generational issue...the way the young Russians are operating in the big cities. Doesn't sound like what I've heard from the older Russians I've hung out with. If a Russian man heard his wife was hanging out at a bar kissing all the guys in the place (and the word would get back to him), I think there'd be hell to pay for the wife. OK for the guys to have lovers...not for the women. That is the Russia I hear about.

There are plenty of married Russian women who cheat on their husbands, it's simply something they do surreptitiously. I believe the myth that Russian men are "bad" (alcoholics, serial adulterers, etc.) is the kind of stuff spewed by marriage agencies that want western guys to believe their penpals are sweet, innocent wallflowers. From my experience Russian women are much more sexually sophisticated than their Western counterparts, have fewer hangups, and won't stigmatize a friend or colleague who is cheating.

I should go back to Moscow and lease a place for a year, furnish it, and sublease it too all the westerners needing a place to house their loved ones during the interview process. Profit can be had! What do you think Slim, joint venture? Leasing a place a for a year would probably only run about $500 - $800 a month. At $100 a day you could recoup that in a week!

Two years ago this month I spent $70 per night for this place, which is a block from the Belaruskaya metro station:

http://arendakvart.narod.ru/photobkondratevskaya23.html

As you can see the price is closer to $110 per night, now. As a previous poster wrote, you are not going to find a decent place she can stay alone in within the garden ring for $50 per night, not going to happen even if you were a local.

You should also be aware that this whole process doesn't get less expensive once she arrives. Please know that if you're nickel and diming over a few hundred dollars now, you may really struggle when she is here.

Why not?

Whatever you do, do not allow your fiancee to fall into the trap of working for Russian firms or Russian people when she arrives.

I know a good number of Russian people in the NYC area. All who work for Russians or Russian firms are paid a pittance and treated poorly. The managers of such firms know that most expats come to work for them because their English is not up to snuff or they don't yet have the confidence to leave their comfort zones, which gives them wide lattitude for abuse. (And this is not a knock against Russians - many immigrants are subject to this if they are reluctant to integrate yet want to work).

We have friends who've been in the US for 8+ years, and those working for Russian firms can't speak a lick of English - and they probably never will because they never leave their protective Russian enclaves. I've noticed that those Russians who never integrated are, in general, unhappy with their lives here and very critical of the US. I've also noted exactly the opposite in those who learned English, have American friends, etc.

On a separate note, I'd encourage guys who have fiancees planning to work in the US when they arrive to be protective but not cloying. My wife accepted her first two job offers yet quit after a single day at each. There are companies out there, small firms in particular, that will see her immigrant status and lack of perfect English as an opportunity to exploit her. Be it for something as heinous as requiring sex or simpler abuses like no vacation time and long hours, involve yourself in her job search and be patient. If she hates her work it's bound to carry over into her personal life; a little patience and understanding while she finds a job she enjoys can go a long way.

Whatever you do, do not allow your fiancee to fall into the trap of working for Russian firms or Russian people when she arrives.

As I said, living together in Russia with the comfort of her native language and surroundings, tells very little about her success in the USA.

The rest of what you said is common sense so I have no further comment except one week together (24/7) is equal to dating and American woman for several months if you consider that dating might only entail meeting once or twice a week for 4 or 5 hours on a date...so you should consider that to be fair.

IMHO you're putting too much emphasis on a woman's ability to make a go at life in the US.

If what you share with your wife is love and not some facsimile, it's not that big of a sacrifice. I don't mean to shrug off the difficulty of making such a monumental transition, but in my experience it was just one of many compromises and sacrifices my wife and I made that were necessary to make our relationship work. I will say, however, that without love we would have failed within the first six months.

I dated a lot of Russian women living in the US before I met my wife, almost all arrived here on K1s and divorced after a few years. Never did I hear the excuse that the divorce resulted from difficulty in adjusting to life here; rather, most women married puppylove-struck guys whom they liked and trusted and with whom they hoped they could one day love. (And those were the decent women, others were far more calculating.) Some time after arrival, stress and loneliness - not love - entered her life and things fell apart. The curious thing is that the guy in such failed relationships always has some excuse - her friends whispered lies in her ears, she missed her mom too much, she had difficulty learning English, etc., etc. He can't accept the simple fact that she never loved him and never could.

I think Kazan Tiger did it right - love was in his equation before he filed the K1, he won the battle on her turf, he did things in their proper order and took the time to make sure it was genuine. Was four years too much? I don't know, but I'd put a lot more stock in his chances than the guys who spend a week with a girl who can't speak English and believe her when she says "I love you, too."

And you living with her for one year is very unique...and I wonder why so long but that's really your business. Clearly very few of us can or would want to spend a year in an environment that does not resemble the ultimate world we must share with our wives down the road. And if you fail, you've given up one year and all the associated sacrifices you made. That's a lot of risk to accept, in my eyes...but then, you're a younger man so maybe you see it differently.

A greater risk than wasting a year of one's life is spending a week or two with a Russian woman and then proposing to her. I see all kinds of wacky stuff on these boards by guys (like sense1) who are willing to throw caution to the wind and insist they're simply true romantics who are trusting their instincts. The original poster and his wife deserve credit for taking the time to get to know each other before making such a serious commitment. In terms of pure risk, I'd bet that they'll be together long after the guys who propose to women they can't have a conversation with sans interpreter, the guys who propose after an internet correspondence + week's vacation together, and those who simply don't know their partners. They risk being used for a green card, bought up on domestic violence charges to expedite residency, or worse...

FWIW, being able to live for a year in Russia is impossible for most of us who have careers, but if you marry a stranger from a (relatively) poor land, don't come crying to papa when the blindfold is ripped from your face and you realize you are a latter-day version of the pheasant who swam across the river w/the fox on his back, only to have the fox eat him upon arriving at the opposite bank.

They, the biddies, have convinced her that I will bring her here and dump her on the streets. Now, why would I spend so much money and just do that?

Why is it so difficult for guys to read the 38-point, boldfaced writing on the wall? This woman does not love you, she does not even like you, she has no respect for you. If you continue down this path with her you'll be milked for everything she can get from you and then finally tossed aside. Her behavior isn't something that stems from cultural differences or because her friends have brainwashed her. (Quite the opposite, really: I'd bet my next paycheck that her girlfriends admire and envy her for the way she has played you. Only a virtuoso could treat a guy like garbage and then have him crawling back for more.)

We each have our own standards.

We sure do.