Filing N400 under 3 year rule without 3 years of tax returns

[ditwar 1]

Hello

 

My husband and I are thinking to file for the naturalization soon before October,  because the fees will be exaggeratedly increased in October 2020. 

 

My husband got his GC on February 2016, send application for removed of condition in December 2017 and last year 2019, they removed his conditional and got his 10 GC.

 

We would like to file under the 3 year condition but our problem is that we do not have 3 years tax returns. We have 2018 and 2019, we will file for this year but I guess for the N400 it will not count.  In 2016 and 2017 we were both unemployed and did not file.

 

Do you know if this is a strict requirement for approval of N400 under the 3 year rule?

[ThaOne 101]

Hi, 

this is in no way any professional advice here so I suggest you read and double check the instructions again. That being said, you are not asked for the tax returns when you are filing (online at least), nor at the biometrics appointment. You should have them at the interview which is months after the biometrics. If you file online September 28th, let's say, you would beat the deadline for the fee increase. 

Normally the biometrics were scheduled 3 weeks after filing, so that would have been mid October. But with COVID if you look at the forum, some people who filed in March 2020 still don't have their biometrics appointment. Luckily I had filed at the end of January and got my biometrics appointment the normal 3 weeks later in February before COVID shut down all offices.

Anyway, so even if you file at the end of September and you are EXTREMELY lucky and they issue an appointment for biometrics for October, there is NO chance that you will receive an interview less than 2 months later (December 31st, 2020). I can guarantee you that. No one even prior to COVID has completed this whole process in 3 months. This means that at the earliest, early January you can file your taxes and you will have the 3 that you seek. 

Again, double check your requirements for naturalization after 3 years only, because I have been a LPR for more than a decade and the 5 year taxes documentation will only be looked at during the interview and not during the biometrics, which I repeat, you probably would not even get an appointment to until 2021 based on the situation as they are very backlogged right now just for the biometrics.

Hope this helps.

[ditwar 1]

On 9/8/2020 at 10:51 AM, ThaOne said:

Hi, 

this is in no way any professional advice here so I suggest you read and double check the instructions again. That being said, you are not asked for the tax returns when you are filing (online at least), nor at the biometrics appointment. You should have them at the interview which is months after the biometrics. If you file online September 28th, let's say, you would beat the deadline for the fee increase. 

Normally the biometrics were scheduled 3 weeks after filing, so that would have been mid October. But with COVID if you look at the forum, some people who filed in March 2020 still don't have their biometrics appointment. Luckily I had filed at the end of January and got my biometrics appointment the normal 3 weeks later in February before COVID shut down all offices.

Anyway, so even if you file at the end of September and you are EXTREMELY lucky and they issue an appointment for biometrics for October, there is NO chance that you will receive an interview less than 2 months later (December 31st, 2020). I can guarantee you that. No one even prior to COVID has completed this whole process in 3 months. This means that at the earliest, early January you can file your taxes and you will have the 3 that you seek. 

Again, double check your requirements for naturalization after 3 years only, because I have been a LPR for more than a decade and the 5 year taxes documentation will only be looked at during the interview and not during the biometrics, which I repeat, you probably would not even get an appointment to until 2021 based on the situation as they are very backlogged right now just for the biometrics.

Hope this helps.

Thank you a lot for your answer. I checked their quick instructions and they wrote: "Your tax returns are very important proof
that you are eligible for naturalization. On
the day of your interview, bring certified tax
returns for the last 5 years (3 years if you
are married to a U.S. citizen). Certified tax
transcripts may be ordered by using Internal
Revenue Service (IRS) Form 4506-T available at www.irs.gov
or calling 1-800-829-1040."

So if I understand correctly, we will need just 3 tax returns because he is married with me (I am US citizen), even if we decide to apply after 5 years?

G-1151.pdf

[ThaOne 101]

35 minutes ago, ditwar said:

Thank you a lot for your answer. I checked their quick instructions and they wrote: "Your tax returns are very important proof
that you are eligible for naturalization. On
the day of your interview, bring certified tax
returns for the last 5 years (3 years if you
are married to a U.S. citizen). Certified tax
transcripts may be ordered by using Internal
Revenue Service (IRS) Form 4506-T available at www.irs.gov
or calling 1-800-829-1040."

So if I understand correctly, we will need just 3 tax returns because he is married with me (I am US citizen), even if we decide to apply after 5 years?

G-1151.pdf 627.04 kB · 0 downloads

NO! If you file now then it would be under the 3 year rule. If he got his GC February 2016 then 5 years would mean if you file after February 2021. But now you are still in your 4th year. So you would need to bring at the interview 3 years of tax returns at your interview even if your interview is after February 2021 which it certainly will. The 3 year rule is established at the time of filing and not at the time of interview.

Also to be clear the difference between the 3 year rule and the 5 year rule is that after 3 years he can apply but must still be married. After 5 years an applicant doesn't need to be still married and can file alone. That's all that means. In your case you guys are married so if you want to do it now it will be under the 3 year rule and both of you need to give your information. So if you apply attach documents such as bank information, lease with both your names... any other documents with both your names. You will NOT (I guarantee) get an interview before January, 1st 2021 so as soon as we get to 2021 file your 2020 taxes as you should get your W2s on the first week of January already (right?). So if your interview comes you will have your last 3 tax returns (2018, 2019 and 2020). Even if your interview is after February 2021 it doesn't matter because you filed before the 5 year time under the 3 year rule in 2020. But filing now doesn't give your husband the choice of the 5 year rule because 5 years would be in February 2021.

I really hope not to confuse you. 

And also note that I am not an lawyer. I am just giving you my understanding of what USCIS wrote.

[ditwar 1]

1 hour ago, ThaOne said:

NO! If you file now then it would be under the 3 year rule. If he got his GC February 2016 then 5 years would mean if you file after February 2021. But now you are still in your 4th year. So you would need to bring at the interview 3 years of tax returns at your interview even if your interview is after February 2021 which it certainly will. The 3 year rule is established at the time of filing and not at the time of interview.

Also to be clear the difference between the 3 year rule and the 5 year rule is that after 3 years he can apply but must still be married. After 5 years an applicant doesn't need to be still married and can file alone. That's all that means. In your case you guys are married so if you want to do it now it will be under the 3 year rule and both of you need to give your information. So if you apply attach documents such as bank information, lease with both your names... any other documents with both your names. You will NOT (I guarantee) get an interview before January, 1st 2021 so as soon as we get to 2021 file your 2020 taxes as you should get your W2s on the first week of January already (right?). So if your interview comes you will have your last 3 tax returns (2018, 2019 and 2020). Even if your interview is after February 2021 it doesn't matter because you filed before the 5 year time under the 3 year rule in 2020. But filing now doesn't give your husband the choice of the 5 year rule because 5 years would be in February 2021.

I really hope not to confuse you. 

And also note that I am not an lawyer. I am just giving you my understanding of what USCIS wrote.

Thank you so much for your response. I wanted to know if we decide to apply later, in the 5 year rule, if we can provide only 3 years tax returns because we is married with me or he will have to provide the 5 years. We do not have problems proving that we are a bona fide marriage, hour problem is with the tax returns. And if they ask for 5 years tax returns, we we file for example after February 21, we will not be able to provide the 5 years tax returns if the interview is at the end of 21.

 

The other problem that we have is that my husband is a German citizen and got recently the information that he will need to apply to an German permit in order to be able to retain his German citizenship, before he obtains a new citizenship. Otherwise, he loose his German citizenship. If we apply for this permit, let say tomorrow, due to the covid-19, we doubt that we will get this permit before the end of this month. I have read elsewhere that this German permit lasts only two years. So, I do not know if would be a good idea to apply to both at the same time and hope that the German government approves the permit and my husband receives in his hand the document, before the USC oath ceremony. Or we should wait that he got his permit first and after apply for the US Citizenship paying the heavy fee. What do you think?

[ThaOne 101]

3 hours ago, ditwar said:

Thank you so much for your response. I wanted to know if we decide to apply later, in the 5 year rule, if we can provide only 3 years tax returns because we is married with me or he will have to provide the 5 years. We do not have problems proving that we are a bona fide marriage, hour problem is with the tax returns. And if they ask for 5 years tax returns, we we file for example after February 21, we will not be able to provide the 5 years tax returns if the interview is at the end of 21.

 

The other problem that we have is that my husband is a German citizen and got recently the information that he will need to apply to an German permit in order to be able to retain his German citizenship, before he obtains a new citizenship. Otherwise, he loose his German citizenship. If we apply for this permit, let say tomorrow, due to the covid-19, we doubt that we will get this permit before the end of this month. I have read elsewhere that this German permit lasts only two years. So, I do not know if would be a good idea to apply to both at the same time and hope that the German government approves the permit and my husband receives in his hand the document, before the USC oath ceremony. Or we should wait that he got his permit first and after apply for the US Citizenship paying the heavy fee. What do you think?

Disclaimer: My response is going to be long because these are some important matters and I want to be as clear as I can and give the most details and observations I know, so sorry for the length.

 

Sorry, but I don't think that if you apply after the 5 year mark that you can use the 3 year rules based on all the documentation on websites and on USCIS.gov. Did you collect unemployment benefits from the US when you were not employed? How were you guys supported financially in 2016 and 2017? (I am not asking you these personal questions, but this is what they would ask you). Try looking online and asking around the question to know if one can apply for citizenship if that person was unemployed at anytime during the 5 previous years before filing. That's the question you need answered first before you file if you file after the 5 year term. If you file after February 2021 (submit your application after February 2021) then make sure to have a definite answer on whether it's possible to not have been employed for the whole 5 years and what proof of financial support you can bring if they allow it to prove that you were financially viable and were not just working "in the shadows undeclared" and not paying taxes.

If you were working in the US in 2016 and 2017 and had W2s but just didn't file any taxes (which means you owe) then I would NOT file at all in any circumstances until you sort that out.

But again, since your initial concern was to beat the October 2 deadline for prices to go up, then the only option if you file before that date will be because you qualify for the 3 year rule which comes automatically with the 3 year requirements (i.e prove that it is still a bona fide marriage, 3 last years taxes...)

 

As for the German permit I don't know anything about that and have not read anything about that, but when do you think he can get that? If he can get that within the next 6 months at least I am sure that would be fine. You need to understand that the normal time to file the N400 and get to the oath ceremony under normal circumstances is at least 6 months if you are lucky, but depending on where people file it can go up to 1 year or more. That's depending on where you live/which office you are filing from. That's normal times. But with COVID they just reopened all offices in July I believe so everything is taking longer. So if the German permit takes just 2 or 3 months then do that. Anyway, the German permit I guess he has to do regardless to keep his German citizenship so I would do that right now regardless immediately. He will not take an oath to become a US citizen FOR SURE anytime before 6 or 7 months even if he applied for n 400 tonight. That is impossible. Just read around the forum here and look at people's timelines and people who are currently waiting. So I would recommend doing the German permit to retain his citizenship anyway now.

 

Finally, you know that even if they schedule your interview for the N 400 or even for the oath, that you can ask to have it postponed to a later date?

 

Bottom line is for the N400 if you file anytime before February 2021 you will be under the 3 year requirements. If you file anytime before February 2021 but after October 1st 2020 you will be under the 3 year rule but will pay the higher fees. If you file anytime before February 2021 (before or after October 1st 2020) you will only have to provide the 3 tax filings and that's it. No other financial justifications and you will have them because you can file your 2020 taxes as soon as possible in January, so you could bring them (2018, 2019 and 2020 taxes) to the interview which will take place in 2021 for sure. To be honest I don't think you would get an interview even if you filed the N400 today, before mid or late 2021. Again just look around at peoples' timelines. 

 

Me for instance I filed before COVID in January. I did my biometrics 3 weeks after I filed which is the normal wait under normal times a few weeks before COVID lockdown. In comparison around the country people who filed even in March before the lockdown but didn't get their biometrics done, a lot of them still do not have their appointment for biometrics. My estimated wait time to get scheduled for an interview was supposed to be in August, but because of all the delays USCIS sent the message that they are running behind (the message goes: "We are taking longer than expected to process your case. You do not need to do anything at this time."). The majority of people got that same message because they were closed from March to July. My normal completion time (which means the planned oath month was October). So as you can see I had a relatively short expected wait/completion time of 9 months which is really good, but now it will be delayed a bit. Some other places under normal conditions it is a total wait of 11 months to 18 months from application submitted to Oath in normal conditions (No COVID).

 

So finally, finally what I can really say is if I were you I would do everything I have to do, but taking in account that whatever you do your husband will NOT get the oath ceremony let alone the interview date before at least March or April of 2021 even if he files the N400 tonight. The only difference is what I mentioned above about the 3 year versus the 5 year rule and the difference in price if filed after October 1st, 2020. 

 

I really hope this helps. 

[ditwar 1]

18 hours ago, ThaOne said:

Disclaimer: My response is going to be long because these are some important matters and I want to be as clear as I can and give the most details and observations I know, so sorry for the length.

 

Sorry, but I don't think that if you apply after the 5 year mark that you can use the 3 year rules based on all the documentation on websites and on USCIS.gov. Did you collect unemployment benefits from the US when you were not employed? How were you guys supported financially in 2016 and 2017? (I am not asking you these personal questions, but this is what they would ask you). Try looking online and asking around the question to know if one can apply for citizenship if that person was unemployed at anytime during the 5 previous years before filing. That's the question you need answered first before you file if you file after the 5 year term. If you file after February 2021 (submit your application after February 2021) then make sure to have a definite answer on whether it's possible to not have been employed for the whole 5 years and what proof of financial support you can bring if they allow it to prove that you were financially viable and were not just working "in the shadows undeclared" and not paying taxes.

If you were working in the US in 2016 and 2017 and had W2s but just didn't file any taxes (which means you owe) then I would NOT file at all in any circumstances until you sort that out.

But again, since your initial concern was to beat the October 2 deadline for prices to go up, then the only option if you file before that date will be because you qualify for the 3 year rule which comes automatically with the 3 year requirements (i.e prove that it is still a bona fide marriage, 3 last years taxes...)

 

As for the German permit I don't know anything about that and have not read anything about that, but when do you think he can get that? If he can get that within the next 6 months at least I am sure that would be fine. You need to understand that the normal time to file the N400 and get to the oath ceremony under normal circumstances is at least 6 months if you are lucky, but depending on where people file it can go up to 1 year or more. That's depending on where you live/which office you are filing from. That's normal times. But with COVID they just reopened all offices in July I believe so everything is taking longer. So if the German permit takes just 2 or 3 months then do that. Anyway, the German permit I guess he has to do regardless to keep his German citizenship so I would do that right now regardless immediately. He will not take an oath to become a US citizen FOR SURE anytime before 6 or 7 months even if he applied for n 400 tonight. That is impossible. Just read around the forum here and look at people's timelines and people who are currently waiting. So I would recommend doing the German permit to retain his citizenship anyway now.

 

Finally, you know that even if they schedule your interview for the N 400 or even for the oath, that you can ask to have it postponed to a later date?

 

Bottom line is for the N400 if you file anytime before February 2021 you will be under the 3 year requirements. If you file anytime before February 2021 but after October 1st 2020 you will be under the 3 year rule but will pay the higher fees. If you file anytime before February 2021 (before or after October 1st 2020) you will only have to provide the 3 tax filings and that's it. No other financial justifications and you will have them because you can file your 2020 taxes as soon as possible in January, so you could bring them (2018, 2019 and 2020 taxes) to the interview which will take place in 2021 for sure. To be honest I don't think you would get an interview even if you filed the N400 today, before mid or late 2021. Again just look around at peoples' timelines. 

 

Me for instance I filed before COVID in January. I did my biometrics 3 weeks after I filed which is the normal wait under normal times a few weeks before COVID lockdown. In comparison around the country people who filed even in March before the lockdown but didn't get their biometrics done, a lot of them still do not have their appointment for biometrics. My estimated wait time to get scheduled for an interview was supposed to be in August, but because of all the delays USCIS sent the message that they are running behind (the message goes: "We are taking longer than expected to process your case. You do not need to do anything at this time."). The majority of people got that same message because they were closed from March to July. My normal completion time (which means the planned oath month was October). So as you can see I had a relatively short expected wait/completion time of 9 months which is really good, but now it will be delayed a bit. Some other places under normal conditions it is a total wait of 11 months to 18 months from application submitted to Oath in normal conditions (No COVID).

 

So finally, finally what I can really say is if I were you I would do everything I have to do, but taking in account that whatever you do your husband will NOT get the oath ceremony let alone the interview date before at least March or April of 2021 even if he files the N400 tonight. The only difference is what I mentioned above about the 3 year versus the 5 year rule and the difference in price if filed after October 1st, 2020. 

 

I really hope this helps. 

Hello thank you so much for your response. I have read that the German permit could take 1 year to be approved, so unfortunately will have to wait and apply by the 5 year rule and pay the high fee. And the other thing it sucks, is  in case the German permit is approved, we get only 2 years to apply and get the US citizenship, if the 2 years are over and my husband haven't had the Oath Ceremony, we will have to apply again for the permit because otherwise he would loose his German citizenship. The good news is that when we are able to file the N400, hopefully the covid-19 issue is over and we will have the 5 years tax returns. But in that time, I think we will have to take into consideration where to file, where he can get his citizenship before the 2 years mark. How do I find out which office process the N400 faster? Because in this case it would be worth event the move.