Immigration issues make work harder to find, some say

[homesick_american 1]

What a disgraceful thing to say.

What's fuelling your hate? The South-West of the U.S.A has been and continues to be built for practically nothing by immigrants from Mexico and other Latin American countries. These people cross the border not out of greed but necessity; to feed their families. I wonder if you've even considered the deprivation behind a decision to put your life in danger to reach a place where you may be able to obtain a measly wage in construction or restaurant work. ###### these people? I don't think so... help these people! It's extremely easy for people from affluent backgrounds to chastise over this issue, you'll never be in their position so why should you see them as anything else but a nuisance?

They're way more than a nuisance.

[vamos 0]

What are they then?

[homesick_american 1]

What are they then?

Criminals and an unfair burden to public services.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I have no desire to do so but a link would be nice.

So then you accept the fact that, contrary to your claim, the vast majority of construction in this country is and has been done by Americans and those aliens which are legally here and employed.

Hmmm, strange how you came to that conclusion. I said I have no desire to debate the figures with you but since you have a source why don't you post a link to the relevant information? When citing a quote you wouldn't just provide the book it's from, you'd provide the page number also.

My reason for posting was that I took umbrage at such hateful remarks being made about people, the majority of whom, are forced into these situations in an effort to survive. I admit that it would've been better to obtain figures first of all before making grandiose claims. However, it's interesting that you chose to pick on that part of my argument rather than answer the sentiment behind it.

Actually, if you want quotes and links, then why don't you set a good example and provide sources and links to your claim that illegals have essentially built and continue to build the Southwestern US for practically nothing. I mean, if we're gonna get into an exchange about unsubstatiated claims, then you have some backing up to do first.

[vamos 0]

I have no desire to do so but a link would be nice.

So then you accept the fact that, contrary to your claim, the vast majority of construction in this country is and has been done by Americans and those aliens which are legally here and employed.

Hmmm, strange how you came to that conclusion. I said I have no desire to debate the figures with you but since you have a source why don't you post a link to the relevant information? When citing a quote you wouldn't just provide the book it's from, you'd provide the page number also.

My reason for posting was that I took umbrage at such hateful remarks being made about people, the majority of whom, are forced into these situations in an effort to survive. I admit that it would've been better to obtain figures first of all before making grandiose claims. However, it's interesting that you chose to pick on that part of my argument rather than answer the sentiment behind it.

Actually, if you want quotes and links, then why don't you set a good example and provide sources and links to your claim that illegals have essentially built and continue to build the Southwestern US for practically nothing. I mean, if we're gonna get into an exchange about unsubstatiated claims, then you have some backing up to do first.

I'll say it again. I said "immigrants" not "illegal immigrants", have you ever heard of the straw man fallacy? I think you can take my last statement as a retraction anyway. I fully admit that I have nothing to back up what I said but you apparently have a source which you are refusing to cite. You were very quick to come up with the figure so it shouldn't be to hard to copy and paste the web address you got it from.

[homesick_american 1]

I'll say it again. I said "immigrants" not "illegal immigrants", have you ever heard of the straw man fallacy? I think you can take my last statement as a retraction anyway. I fully admit that I have nothing to back up what I said but you apparently have a source which you are refusing to cite. You were very quick to come up with the figure so it shouldn't be to hard to copy and paste the web address you got it from.

I don't think her request was unreasonable at all. Put up or shut up.

[vamos 0]

What are they then?

Criminals and an unfair burden to public services.

Do you mean criminals because of their illegal status or just generally criminals? On the issue of the burden on public services, wouldn't legitimizing illegal immigrants already in the U.S to allow them to pay taxes go towards solving this?

I'll say it again. I said "immigrants" not "illegal immigrants", have you ever heard of the straw man fallacy? I think you can take my last statement as a retraction anyway. I fully admit that I have nothing to back up what I said but you apparently have a source which you are refusing to cite. You were very quick to come up with the figure so it shouldn't be to hard to copy and paste the web address you got it from.

I don't think her request was unreasonable at all. Put up or shut up.

Exactly. It goes both ways though.

[homesick_american 1]

What are they then?

Criminals and an unfair burden to public services.

Do you mean criminals because of their illegal status or just generally criminals? On the issue of the burden on public services, wouldn't legitimizing illegal immigrants already in the U.S to allow them to pay taxes go towards solving this?

Criminals because of their illegal status.

Many illegals already pay taxes. That doesn't mean that they are still not a disproportionate burden on social services. Do you live in a state with a lot of illegals? I grew up in Texas, one of the major front lines, and believe me...they suck the system dry.

I don't think her request was unreasonable at all. Put up or shut up.

Exactly. It goes both ways though.

You made the initial claim that sparked the disagreement, though; it's on you to provide a source if asked. Otherwise, how do the rest of us know you didn't just pull it out of your rear-end?

[vamos 0]

What are they then?

Criminals and an unfair burden to public services.

Do you mean criminals because of their illegal status or just generally criminals? On the issue of the burden on public services, wouldn't legitimizing illegal immigrants already in the U.S to allow them to pay taxes go towards solving this?

Criminals because of their illegal status.

Many illegals already pay taxes. That doesn't mean that they are still not a disproportionate burden on social services. Do you live in a state with a lot of illegals? I grew up in Texas, one of the major front lines, and believe me...they suck the system dry.

I don't think her request was unreasonable at all. Put up or shut up.

Exactly. It goes both ways though.

You made the initial claim that sparked the disagreement, though; it's on you to provide a source if asked. Otherwise, how do the rest of us know you didn't just pull it out of your rear-end?

Ok, I stated that the South-West has been built by Mexican and Latin American immigrants, the retort was that 80-85% of construction workers are legal immigrants or Americans. Therefore we're none the wiser as to whether this refutes my wild claim or not as no information was given on the make up of that 80-85%. So, once again, a link would be nice. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean you to be unpleasant by the way.

My wife is from Texas, we're still living in Scotland. As you seem to be all for the backing up of claims made by the person who brings up the subject; where's the evidence that illegal immigrants "suck the system dry"?

Edited June 4, 2007 by vamos

[homesick_american 1]

Ok, I stated that the South-West has been built by Mexican and Latin American immigrants, the retort was that 80-85% of construction workers are legal immigrants or Americans. Therefore we're none the wiser as to whether this refutes my wild claim or not as no information was given on the make up of that 80-85%. So, once again, a link would be nice. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean you to be unpleasant by the way.

So...how would you know, you're not even living in the USA. Have you EVER lived there?

My father is a civil engineer, works with a lot of contractors in the USA to get things built, and most of the construction workers he has dealt with are American, or at least legal immigrants, though many of them were legalized in the last amnesty in 1986. I know a guy who runs a construction company and most of his employees are legal, though he admits that he does have illegals on the payroll. He pays them half what the Americans/legals make because he knows he can get away with that. It sounds like you're willing to perpetuate this system, since you and I both know that another amnesty is NOT going to stop more illegals from streaming across the border.

My wife is from Texas, we're still living in Scotland.

That must be hell on her. It's so COLD there.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I have no desire to do so but a link would be nice.

So then you accept the fact that, contrary to your claim, the vast majority of construction in this country is and has been done by Americans and those aliens which are legally here and employed.

Hmmm, strange how you came to that conclusion. I said I have no desire to debate the figures with you but since you have a source why don't you post a link to the relevant information? When citing a quote you wouldn't just provide the book it's from, you'd provide the page number also.

My reason for posting was that I took umbrage at such hateful remarks being made about people, the majority of whom, are forced into these situations in an effort to survive. I admit that it would've been better to obtain figures first of all before making grandiose claims. However, it's interesting that you chose to pick on that part of my argument rather than answer the sentiment behind it.

Actually, if you want quotes and links, then why don't you set a good example and provide sources and links to your claim that illegals have essentially built and continue to build the Southwestern US for practically nothing. I mean, if we're gonna get into an exchange about unsubstatiated claims, then you have some backing up to do first.

I'll say it again. I said "immigrants" not "illegal immigrants", have you ever heard of the straw man fallacy? I think you can take my last statement as a retraction anyway. I fully admit that I have nothing to back up what I said but you apparently have a source which you are refusing to cite. You were very quick to come up with the figure so it shouldn't be to hard to copy and paste the web address you got it from.

Nice try. You have no substance to offer to your initial claim so now you claim to be talking of immigrants in general as opposed to illegal immigrants. May I remind you of what you posted?

The South-West of the U.S.A has been and continues to be built for practically nothing by immigrants from Mexico and other Latin American countries. These people cross the border not out of greed but necessity; to feed their families. I wonder if you've even considered the deprivation behind a decision to put your life in danger to reach a place where you may be able to obtain a measly wage in construction or restaurant work.

I wonder, since when are legal immigrants putting their lives in danger to reach the US?

And since it seems very hard for some to utilize google to find the Pew Hispanic Center's fact sheet on illegal labor which I mentioned earlier, here's the material for your perusal:

http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/16.pdf

Edited June 4, 2007 by ET-US2004

[homesick_american 1]

My wife is from Texas, we're still living in Scotland. As you seem to be all for the backing up of claims made by the person who brings up the subject; where's the evidence that illegal immigrants "suck the system dry"?

I could play your game and INSIST that you provide your sources first, but I'm not unreasonable.

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?page...ch_research2859

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I don't think her request was unreasonable at all. Put up or shut up.

Exactly. It goes both ways though.

You are asking for that which you are unwilling (or unable) to provide. I wasn't asking for links, you were. So I said if links are that important to you, then why don't you live up to your own expectations? You got it all backwards, man.

[vamos 0]

Ok, I stated that the South-West has been built by Mexican and Latin American immigrants, the retort was that 80-85% of construction workers are legal immigrants or Americans. Therefore we're none the wiser as to whether this refutes my wild claim or not as no information was given on the make up of that 80-85%. So, once again, a link would be nice. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean you to be unpleasant by the way.

So...how would you know, you're not even living in the USA. Have you EVER lived there?

My father is a civil engineer, works with a lot of contractors in the USA to get things built, and most of the construction workers he has dealt with are American, or at least legal immigrants, though many of them were legalized in the last amnesty in 1986. I know a guy who runs a construction company and most of his employees are legal, though he admits that he does have illegals on the payroll. He pays them half what the Americans/legals make because he knows he can get away with that. It sounds like you're willing to perpetuate this system, since you and I both know that another amnesty is NOT going to stop more illegals from streaming across the border.

My wife is from Texas, we're still living in Scotland.

That must be hell on her. It's so COLD there.

Well I don't think "f*cking them hard" is the answer. It's obviously a problem and it needs a workable solution but my point was, and I have stupidly allowed it to be lost, that these people do not deserve your hate and comments like the one you made are unhelpful. If the situation is going be resolved then it has to be done with everybody's welfare considered.

[vamos 0]

I don't think her request was unreasonable at all. Put up or shut up.

Exactly. It goes both ways though.

You are asking for that which you are unwilling (or unable) to provide. I wasn't asking for links, you were. So I said if links are that important to you, then why don't you live up to your own expectations? You got it all backwards, man.

I don't know why you are being so selective with your reading. Why would I post evidence for a statement I retracted? I've already stated that that sentence was not based on any evidence...so that's your "shut up".