Police street stops have soared in NYC, over 85% stopped are Black or Hispanic

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Israeli border guards spend a lot more time scrutinizing Arab men than Israeli women; that’s another example of profiling.

most would call that an example of being smart versus being dumb.

And most people would be wrong

Despite what many people think, terrorism is not confined to young Arab males. Shoe-bomber Richard Reid was British. Germaine Lindsay, one of the 7/7 London bombers, was Afro-Caribbean. Here are some more examples:

In 1986, a 32-year-old Irish woman, pregnant at the time, was about to board an El Al flight from London to Tel Aviv when El Al security agents discovered an explosive device hidden in the false bottom of her bag. The woman’s boyfriend--the father of her unborn child--had hidden the bomb.

In 1987, a 70-year-old man and a 25-year-old woman--neither of whom were Middle Eastern--posed as father and daughter and brought a bomb aboard a Korean Air flight from Baghdad to Thailand. En route to Bangkok, the bomb exploded, killing all on board.

In 1999, men dressed as businessmen (and one dressed as a Catholic priest) turned out to be terrorist hijackers, who forced an Avianca flight to divert to an airstrip in Colombia, where some passengers were held as hostages for more than a year-and-half.

The 2002 Bali terrorists were Indonesian. The Chechnyan terrorists who downed the Russian planes were women. Timothy McVeigh and the Unibomber were Americans. Tha Tamil Tigers are Sri Lankan.

And many Muslims are not Arabs. Even worse, almost everyone who is Arab is not a terrorist -- many people who look Arab are not even Muslims. So not only are there an large number of false negatives -- terrorists who don't meet the profile -- but there an enormous number of false positives: innocents that do meet the profile.

it's so nice you try to cloud the issue with many examples that don't even apply to israel. just one of the above applied to the topic.

The topic I was dealing with is the ineffectiveness of profiling - do try and keep up

no, you're throwing out a red herring regarding my statement above which was exclusively about israel. you tried to distract from it with a bunch of nonsense not even related to israel. do try not to take coffee breaks, you lose track of the topic

The obvious point is that Israel practices race/sex profiling, but still cannot prevent suicide bombings.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

The obvious point is that Israel practices race/sex profiling, but still cannot prevent suicide bombings.

The expectation many put forward of a defensive measure not being successful if it does not stop 100% of all attacks is silly. The point is to reduce incidents, not eliminate them. Success is defined by how much of a reduction the measure achieves relative to the cost.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Wearing urban gear means you're more likely to be a gangster? Some of you really need to go spend some time living/working/studying in an urban area.

I hear you there - a trip to my local supermarket almost everyone is dressed like that... I'm used to it now (we lived in a more upscale area in CA), but when you're face to face with those people you have to learn to think differently, otherwise you go around completely paranoid. As usual stereotypes are easy to accept in the absence of a direct frame of reference.

Edited February 5, 2007 by erekose

[DelcoCouple 1]

The obvious point is that Israel practices race/sex profiling, but still cannot prevent suicide bombings.

The expectation many put forward of a defensive measure not being successful if it does not stop 100% of all attacks is silly. The point is to reduce incidents, not eliminate them. Success is defined by how much of a reduction the measure achieves relative to the cost.

And that reduction was????????????????

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The obvious point is that Israel practices race/sex profiling, but still cannot prevent suicide bombings.

The expectation many put forward of a defensive measure not being successful if it does not stop 100% of all attacks is silly. The point is to reduce incidents, not eliminate them. Success is defined by how much of a reduction the measure achieves relative to the cost.

Building a new "Berlin Wall" would seem to suggest that it isn't working - that profiling has extended to take in the entire ethnic group.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

... when you're face to face with those people you have to learn to think differently, otherwise you go around completely paranoid.

Absolutely. For example, if I took all my knowledge of Arab people from the Western media, I'd be scared to walk into the halal meats store. Arabic scripts everywhere, everyone dressed like a stereotype straight off the streets of Riyadh. A photo of a mosque on the wall with suspicious looking Arabic writing below it (damn, doesn't that look like a sword OMG) and a box to leave your money in (is that going to terrorists??? OMGOMG). If I let myself go crazy believing that ####### I'd be depriving myself of a great place to buy fresh, tasty and incredibly inexpensive meat.. not to mention baklava.

Comes with the territory when you live in a place that's as diverse as NJ.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

... when you're face to face with those people you have to learn to think differently, otherwise you go around completely paranoid.

Absolutely. For example, if I took all my knowledge of Arab people from the Western media, I'd be scared to walk into the halal meats store. Arabic scripts everywhere, everyone dressed like a stereotype straight off the streets of Riyadh. A photo of a mosque on the wall with suspicious looking Arabic writing below it (damn, doesn't that look like a sword OMG) and a box to leave your money in (is that going to terrorists??? OMGOMG). If I let myself go crazy believing that ####### I'd be depriving myself of a great place to buy fresh, tasty and incredibly inexpensive meat.. not to mention baklava.

Comes with the territory when you live in a place that's as diverse as NJ.

[DelcoCouple 1]

... when you're face to face with those people you have to learn to think differently, otherwise you go around completely paranoid.

Absolutely. For example, if I took all my knowledge of Arab people from the Western media, I'd be scared to walk into the halal meats store. Arabic scripts everywhere, everyone dressed like a stereotype straight off the streets of Riyadh. A photo of a mosque on the wall with suspicious looking Arabic writing below it (damn, doesn't that look like a sword OMG) and a box to leave your money in (is that going to terrorists??? OMGOMG). If I let myself go crazy believing that ####### I'd be depriving myself of a great place to buy fresh, tasty and incredibly inexpensive meat.. not to mention baklava.

Comes with the territory when you live in a place that's as diverse as NJ.

Interesting that you mention NJ. Until recently, it was undisputed that African-American drivers on the New Jersey Turnpike stood a much greater chance than white drivers of being stopped by the State Police for a random drug search. This practice--an example of racial profiling--ended abruptly when public outrage forced the removal of the State Police Superintendent.

The outcome in New Jersey was, however, the exception rather than the rule. In fact, law enforcement agencies throughout the US commonly use tactics that subject members of certain minority groups to closer scrutiny than others. When a police officer detains and investigates a person or group of people primarily because of their race-- absent of any information linking them to criminal activity--that officer is engaged in racial profiling.

I am saddened to see members of this forum defend such tactics as an effective way to target likely lawbreakers. The absurd argument that profiling is based not on prejudice but probabilities--the statistical reality that young minority men are disproportionately likely to commit crimes. Yet they conveinently ignore the fact that those same young men are many more times more likely to be the VICTIMS of crime.

Some posters have stated that there are situations in which police must take race or ethnicity into account to do their jobs effectively. An obvious example is when skin color is part of a description of specific suspects committing specific crimes. In addition, such descriptions help police narrow the pool of potential suspects and concentrate their enforcement efforts. Let's say that a police department has knowledge that jewelry store salespeople are being robbed. The robberies occur just after the store closes when the sales personnel are leaving work. Witnesses describe the suspects as male, Hispanic adults. Police are also told that prior to past robberies, witnesses have observed several Hispanic males seated in a car that matches the description of what is later to be determined as the suspect vehicle. Based on this scenario, a police officer would be justified in investigating a vehicle containing a group of Hispanic males parked adjacent to a jewelry store at closing time.

And even though the criteria used by police to target this vehicle includes that the occupants are Hispanic, the police are not using "racial profiling." However, if police officers from this department--in an effort to stop these robberies--made it a practice to stop any and all vehicles occupied by male Hispanics, anywhere in the city, at any time, they would be engaged in racial profiling

That is not effective or even intelligent police work it is lazy, bigoted and totally ineffective policing.

The problem with racial profiling is not that it targets "dangerous people in dangerous places." It is that it targets inaccurately and in ways that breed resentment and mistrust between the police and poor communities. What we need is the right kind of targeting, based on better information about lawbreakers and closer cooperation between the police and the community.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Interesting that you mention NJ. Until recently, it was undisputed that African-American drivers on the New Jersey Turnpike stood a much greater chance than white drivers of being stopped by the State Police for a random drug search. This practice--an example of racial profiling--ended abruptly when public outrage forced the removal of the State Police Superintendent.

The outcome in New Jersey was, however, the exception rather than the rule.

Speaking of the outcome in New Jersey....

State police are making far fewer gun-related arrests on the New Jersey Turnpike than they did a decade ago, according to a published report.

Last year, troopers made 17 gun-related arrests on the Turnpike, a drop of 91 percent from 1995. They seized 15 guns, or 87 percent fewer than in 1995.

Law enforcement authorities say it is difficult to draw a direct connection between the decrease in gun-related arrests on the roadway and the spike in gun violence in cities such as Newark.

"There is no way a reasonable person could not connect the dots between what's going on the highway and what's going in these communities," David Jones, president of the State Troopers Fraternal Association, told the newspaper. "These are not separate circumstances."

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/new...ion-apnewjersey

[Heracles 417]

It just amazes me at how so many play dumb when it comes to the high portion of crimes being committed by African Americans. I mean come on now.. Almost every time I see a murder on the news or x being wanted for a robbery or x dead in a gang shootout, there is usually a picture of an African-American male on screen..

Wearing urban gear means you're more likely to be a gangster? Some of you really need to go spend some time living/working/studying in an urban area.

Is that what they call it now.. I have to call people up overseas to tell them about this one... urban..

Edited February 5, 2007 by Infidel

[DelcoCouple 1]

And the more interesting part of the report which adds weight to what I have been saying-

The decline is attributed to a change in state police strategy on roadside searches, spurred by a state investigation into the practice of pulling over cars and making random searches for weapons. The 1999 probe found that troopers were stopping drivers based on their skin color. State police were put under federal oversight and forced to change their tactics.

"The numbers went down because we ended the program of random interdiction as a law enforcement tool," said former Attorney General John Farmer, who helped institute the reforms. "The tactic had seen some success, but when weighed against the alienation of the minority community, it was not effective, and law enforcement had to get better."

Since the racial profiling controversy, state police have focused more on working with police in cities such as Newark, Irvington and Camden where smugglers transport guns in large numbers. Last year, authorities in those cities seized 114 firearms, up from 86 in 2005.

"The bottom line is that over the last seven years we've adopted a different playbook and different rules of engagement," State Police Superintendent Rick Fuentes said. "I would much rather go after the sources or the supply of weapons than to engage in some gut-wrenching searches for these weapons. That's the more prudent way to do it."

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It just amazes me at how so many play dumb when it comes to the high portion of crimes being committed by African Americans.

I don't think that's being disputed - rather the usefulness of appearance Vs. just cause and reasonable suspicion.

[Heracles 417]

It just amazes me at how so many play dumb when it comes to the high portion of crimes being committed by African Americans.

I don't think that's being disputed - rather the usefulness of appearance Vs. just cause and reasonable suspicion.

That is the point though. If a higher portion of group XYZ is committing crimes then group XYZ will need to be scrutinized more closely. Hence the successful anti-terror policing in the UK..

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

... successful anti-terror policing in the UK..

Police raided three more addresses in Birmingham yesterday...

[...]

The continuing police presence is causing major unrest in the Muslim community...

Yesterday, Dr Mohammed Naseem, the chairman of Birmingham Central mosque and one of the city's most senior Muslims, said members of his faith were being persecuted by the Government and compared the current political climate to Nazi Germany.

Mr Naseem, who will address a public rally this afternoon, used Friday prayers to accuse Tony Blair of "persecuting" Muslims to justify counter-terrorist legislation.

[...]

He said Muslims were being used to set up a "police state" and "dictatorship", adding: "They need some excuse to seize that control and they are using Muslims for that. Just look what happened in Germany — Hitler was an elected leader. He started to persecute Jews and the same is happening to Muslims today. We are being used as a political pawn. I am seeing this as the view held by non-Muslims.

[...]

Shabir Hussain, a preacher at the Ludlow Road mosque added: "Someone in a car shouted 'paki bastards' at me. The situation is not good.

"People are very angry. When we had problems with the IRA were all the Irish blamed?...

"The police are paranoid," said a young mother and schoolfriend of Amjad -Mahmood, one of those arrested. "Every time they see a Muslim they cry wolf and arrest him.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../03/nterr03.xml

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It just amazes me at how so many play dumb when it comes to the high portion of crimes being committed by African Americans.

I don't think that's being disputed - rather the usefulness of appearance Vs. just cause and reasonable suspicion.

That is the point though. If a higher portion of group XYZ is committing crimes then group XYZ will need to be scrutinized more closely. Hence the successful anti-terror policing in the UK..

But as pointed out above - its easy to hold to paranoid assumptions about what "criminal types" look like, which taken by themselves amounts to little more than simple stereotyping. If you live in an area like that, as I currently do, you are confronted with "those people" on a daily basis and you inevitably learn to think differently.