The Permanent Middle Class

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Then I have no explanation of what happened to my father in law. He did all of those things, and they did fire him. Sorry, I just can't see how its a good thing. I've always given and worked notice at every job I've ever worked at (including those I've hated). Is it too much to expect employers to behave in a similarly professional manner?

If a company wants to fire you, they will fire you -- at will, at whim, or 20 days' written notice.

Does it make any difference? I doubt it.

Except for the "paid notice period" during which time you can start looking for another job, and the employer can look for a replacement. That's generally how I understood how "notice" works - as a mutual courtesy to the interests of both the employer and employee.

Edited October 25, 2006 by erekose

[mawilson 2,133]

Except for the "paid notice period" during which time you can start looking for another job, and the employer can look for a replacement. That's generally how I understood how "notice" works - as a mutual courtesy to the interests of both the employer and employee.

I know my company usually gives people a month's notice -- albeit "unofficially" --

so they can start looking for another job. I guess it depends on the employer.

Ideally you should have an emergency fund equal to three to six months worth of

basic living expenses since you can't always find a new job in 20-30 days.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I know my company usually gives people a month's notice -- albeit "unofficially" --

so they can start looking for another job. I guess it depends on the employer.

Ideally you should have an emergency fund equal to three to six months worth of

basic living expenses since you can't always find a new job in 20-30 days.

True enough, except there's a big difference between doing what you should do, and doing what you need to do. It only underscores the necessity for a mandatory notice period for terminations that isn't reliant on the good-will of a particular company. That is of course a "bare minimum".

I've noticed that employers in the US get away with a lot of things like "at will" that are simply illegal in Europe. I was temping in Manhattan this past summer before I got my current "permanent" position. Was quite surprised that while I have access to a higher wage and better benefits, I am still little better than a temp in terms of job security.

In a similar vein, my wife was surprised when I told her that UK banks, for example, cannot charge loyalty fees to people using other banks ATM's (the charges were ruled illegal based on a trading standards review that determined the cost to the bank was virtually nil and as a result "unjustifiable").

I'm generally opposed to economic liberalism, of which this would appear to be a case in point.

[mawilson 2,133]

In a similar vein, my wife was surprised when I told her that UK banks, for example, cannot charge loyalty fees to people using other banks ATM's (the charges were ruled illegal based on a trading standards review that determined the cost to the bank was virtually nil and as a result "unjustifiable").

Is that so? I thought you had to be in the same "network" (Lloyds + Barclays,

Midland + Natwest, etc) otherwise they would charge you a fee. It must have

been a relatively recent development.

Most UK banks and building societies give you free cheque books and don't have

silly things like account maintenance fees, but they find other ways to screw you.

[ChristinaM 0]

It must have happened within the last 5 years or so, that the banks can't do that, because I remember it happened whilst I have a cashpoint card (and being 23, I've had one for about 6 years ).

I wish that it were possible to have 3-6 months worth of living expenses in the bank, but for the majority of people it's just not feasible. That's one reason being "at will" scares me so much - if I lost my job tomorrow morning, I'd be at a temp agency in the afternoon begging for $8 an hour. We just couldn't survive on one wage, and I know many people are the same.

I understood the same as you, Fishdude; that notice was a mutual courtesy - even if you're asked not to work out your notice (not uncommon for IT people), they pay you for it usually so that you're not left in the lurch, and by the same token, you don't leave them without a cog in their machine. "At will" seems like a euphemism for "permanent temp" to me.

[Heracles 417]

America has always welcomed and used cheap labor. If 6-year-olds could put in ten-hour days, why not? But with an expanding industrial economy, people could hope that their kids would do better, that their labor would get their children -- or at least their grandchildren -- into the middle class. That dream is fading, as inequality increases. Statistics show that the middle class is shrinking. And young men and women from the richest quarter of American earners increased their share of seats in elite American universities from 39 percent in 1976 to 50 percent in 1995, reports the Economist.

As non-elite Americans more and more become a disposable commodity, working at low-paying and part-time jobs, they are sans benefits, sans health care, sans family leave, sans much of anything, and their children more and more pay the price. Research tells us that workers in jobs who face high demands but low control over their own time and labor face the highest stress. Their ranks are growing, and their children are more and more at risk.

Interesting to see how very few scholars are actually studying the effect illegal immigration is having on increasing the gap between the lower and upper class..

Anyone tho thinks simply throwing larger benefits to people will close this gap is dead wrong. As long as businesses have an unlimited simply of illegal immigrants, middle class 'Americans' will ultimately continue to disappear..

Illegal immigrants are taking jobs from Americans and further pushing American families into poverty, at their gain..

"At will" also means that you can quit your job at a moment's notice without giving your

employer any reason or explanation whatsoever. It's a two-way street.

Exactly. As a contractor I made very good use of this. As soon as a better opportunity came a long I left. Funny how when you leave though certain managers are offended, by the short notice. Yet don't have a problem firing someone in a similar way..

Edited October 25, 2006 by Infidel

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

...they find other ways to screw you.

No argument there.

[mawilson 2,133]

if I lost my job tomorrow morning, I'd be at a temp agency in the afternoon begging for $8 an hour.

Fortunately, there's something called "unemployment insurance". You can get

$1,000-2,000 / month from the state (for about 6 months or so) while you're

looking for a job.

[choji 0]

"At will" also means that you can quit your job at a moment's notice without giving your

employer any reason or explanation whatsoever. It's a two-way street.

It is - but some job security is preferable surely, as far as that is possible these days.

Do your job well, make yourself indispensable, and no-one would want to fire you.

I did all of that way back when, only to be told on a lovely sunny afternoon that I did not need to come back the next day.

Right. I didn't.

To the day a week later the frantic phone calls started, begging me to return.

Can you imagine with what relish I dictated my new terms?

Oh yes, that cost them a lot of money.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Good for you. My Sister in Law got fired from her job at an (ironically enough) insurance company that dealt with workers comp claims. She has carpal tunnel which was aggravated by repetitive typing tasks. That said, she was the highest performing person in her team, even going to the extent of proactively seeking work from other manager when she had completed all of hers.

After her first manager left (who gave her an excellent review, recommending her for a more senior position), the "replacement" took an exception to her working on another team's work after first completing her own (she was basically told that she was expected to sit at her desk doing nothing rather than do work for someone else).

As a result her manager found her work - repetitive data entry work that she knew would aggravate her carpal tunnel.

That, together with what happened to my FIL are merely two (very personal) examples of why employment protections such as guaranteed notice periods exist for a reason.

[ChristinaM 0]

What does one have to do to qualify for unemployment insurance? I know you don't get it if you are out of work by your own choice (ie. you quit), because my husband was on UI last summer.

I have a feeling my neck may be on the chopping block tomorrow morning, so I'd kinda like to know PDQ....

[mawilson 2,133]

What does one have to do to qualify for unemployment insurance? I know you don't get it if you are out of work by your own choice (ie. you quit), because my husband was on UI last summer.

I have a feeling my neck may be on the chopping block tomorrow morning, so I'd kinda like to know PDQ....

Christina,

It's true that you don't qualify if you quit.

Check the Department of Labor's web site, it's a good start: http://www.maine.gov/labor/unemployment/benefits.html

(Unemployment insurance is a state thing, not a Federal program.)

[ChristinaM 0]

So I've got to offend my boss enough to fire me, rather than let him bully me enough to quit.

I feel so much better already.