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Posted

Actually I look at every issue from all sides despite how you want to look at it.

Nothing is 'pre-conceived' about how I go about things in this life.

Most of the things I will talk about/post on, have nothing to do with my own 'personal' beliefs/how I 'feel.'

You have looked at it, but you clearly haven't understood the process and therefore drawn erroneous conclusions.

Let me ask you this, if you and I were in a room, and I had the ability to inflict pain on you whenever you did something I did not like but I failed to tell you what behaviours I did not like, what do you think your reaction would be?

Refusing to use the spellchick!

I have put you on ignore. No really, I have, but you are still ruining my enjoyment of this site. .

Posted

Round penning works awesome actually. I have no access to one at the moment. But honestly, even the John Lyons and Monty Roberts says you have 3 minutes to make your horse believe you are going to kill them if they try to hurt you or do something dangerous.

For me, the last time when I had to do this is when my mare reared up in front of me, due to her stubborn behavior, and I clocked her legs with a whip. I smacked her twice, to me very hard and yelled at her....she could have killed me. She didn't even have a mark, hell, I don't think her hairs even parted...but she never, EVER tried that again. It is only recommended for dangerous situations where an immediate and threatening act (ie the whip) is warrented...and with HORSES..not kids. Horses are large animals who can kill or seriously maime you. People don't always understand that.

That said...none of my horses have had any sort of corporale punishment in years...since I first bought them. And I cannot wait to get another round pen on my new ranch.

-Blu-

Monty Roberts, that's the guy, forgot the name, we had people who were trained in his methods although I did go to see him work with difficult animals once, incredible experience.

It is true, I have never worked with a completely wild horse, just ones that had not been trained to accept being ridden/worked. They were all halter broken and even the foals were of mares that were halter broken and respectful which makes things very different.

Refusing to use the spellchick!

I have put you on ignore. No really, I have, but you are still ruining my enjoyment of this site. .

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Posted

You have looked at it, but you clearly haven't understood the process and therefore drawn erroneous conclusions.

Let me ask you this, if you and I were in a room, and I had the ability to inflict pain on you whenever you did something I did not like but I failed to tell you what behaviours I did not like, what do you think your reaction would be?

I don't know about everyone else...but I can tell you about my personal experience with being spanked and belted. My dad would ALWAYS tell us what we were doing wrong before he belted us...and he DID belt us....it did NOT make me respect him, but it DID make me fear him. Perhaps some people think to get people to follow your rules you need to be feared. I preferred that my kids did not fear me, so I chose not to belt or spank them (except as previously mentioned).

When I got older, I learned to respect and love my dad. He did what he was taught, and he feared his dad. My evil stepmonster beat he ####### out of me anytime I displeased her, which apparently was constant. I was scared to death of her and was actually kind of happy when she died this year. So, how's that hitting your kids working out for you?

-Blu0

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Posted

I don't know about everyone else...but I can tell you about my personal experience with being spanked and belted. My dad would ALWAYS tell us what we were doing wrong before he belted us...and he DID belt us....it did NOT make me respect him, but it DID make me fear him. Perhaps some people think to get people to follow your rules you need to be feared. I preferred that my kids did not fear me, so I chose not to belt or spank them (except as previously mentioned).

When I got older, I learned to respect and love my dad. He did what he was taught, and he feared his dad. My evil stepmonster beat he ####### out of me anytime I displeased her, which apparently was constant. I was scared to death of her and was actually kind of happy when she died this year. So, how's that hitting your kids working out for you?

-Blu0

Interestingly enough, I heard a story from my MIL about a recent (this year) argument her parents ( who are in their 80's) had had with her brother (who is in his 50's) about canings his mother had dealt out to him when he was a boy. Without giving too much detail away, the guy has carried a lifelong resentment about that well into adulthood.

Posted (edited)

I don't know about everyone else...but I can tell you about my personal experience with being spanked and belted. My dad would ALWAYS tell us what we were doing wrong before he belted us...and he DID belt us....it did NOT make me respect him, but it DID make me fear him. Perhaps some people think to get people to follow your rules you need to be feared. I preferred that my kids did not fear me, so I chose not to belt or spank them (except as previously mentioned).

When I got older, I learned to respect and love my dad. He did what he was taught, and he feared his dad. My evil stepmonster beat he ####### out of me anytime I displeased her, which apparently was constant. I was scared to death of her and was actually kind of happy when she died this year. So, how's that hitting your kids working out for you?

-Blu0

The learning process is complex for children. You have to clearly explain what are desirable, and what are undesirable behaviours. You can't expect a child to know instinctively what is ok and what is not. You can not expect a child to instantly understand what it is about the beahviour that you object to either, particularly if it is something that the child does because he/she gets an immediate benefit from it. You then have to make it very clear that every time the child behaves in a way that is undesirable there will be a consequence, and that consequence must be consistant and be meaningful for the child and of course you have to ensure that every time you see that behaviour you follow through with the consequence that you have deemed appropriate - even if you do not want to implement the consequence for some reason.

It is perfectly rational to tailor make the consequence to the child because I certainly agree that not every consequence is going to be meaningful to every child. However, the biggest problem is that each child is different in how they evaluate the immediate personal benefit/pleasure of doing the thing they want to do that they have been told is undesirable set against the impact of the consequence when it comes. The other problem is not all undesirable behaviours are immediately obvious and the longer the period of time that goes by between undesirable behaviour and discovery/consequence, the more difficult it is to link the behaviour to the consequence in a way that is meaningful to a chile and therefore will have the desired outcome, the prevention of the undesirable behaviour.

Clearly then, simply saying to a child that something is undesirable and then expecting them to dutifully obey because you have given them a consequence for not obeying is simplistic.

The problem with using any form of pain as the consequence is that pain is not valuable to the child and I am talking about pain that is measurable, not a symbolic slap which is has no effect positive or negative. How a child reacts to the infliction of pain as a consequence to bad behaviour is also unpredictable. Your reaction to pain was fear, but not respect. I would imagine that is one of the more normal reactions. However, one could also learn to ignore the pain and react defiantly, one could build up resentment and learn to inflict pain on others who are weaker than oneself, one could decide to deliberately indulge in the behaviour in order to receive the pain and this unpredictable of consequence is totally consistent with the fact that pain has no intrinsic value for the child.

Edited by Madame Cleo

Refusing to use the spellchick!

I have put you on ignore. No really, I have, but you are still ruining my enjoyment of this site. .

Filed: Timeline
Posted

*pats on head* It's ok. You'll be alright thinking everything in life is so linear.

Well, you have no clue on the issue. That much you managed to make clear. Stick to having puppies. If nothing else, just for the sake of any kids you might have thought about having. Please don't. Kids have nothing in common with pets. Trust me on this.

 

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