islamic marriage and recognized

[oldahmed 38]

I don't think you are Muslim, so I want to tell you something that your fiance should have already told you. Going to a Muslim country to "marry" in a way that is not recognized by the Muslim country is not Islamic at all. You will not be married. We are directed by God to obey the law of the land we live in. So, if the intent of this "marriage" is to be alone together, then have a ceremony, but don't call it Islamic because will be nothing Islamic about it. Islam requires legality; marriage is a binding social contract with enforcable rights and responsibilities. What some incorrectly call an Islamic marriage can't be enforced because it is only between the two of you and you gain nothing from it, legally or spiritually. Even if the community knows, they have no say over your acts. This is not even the way it was done by the Prophet. It is a fable some believe.

You are worried that if you do a fake marriage in Egypt that it will hurt your chances to marry legally and correctly in the US. You should know that it is actually insulting to knowlegable Muslims for people to go to a Muslim country and flaunt their laws, but then worry that they must obey the law of a non-Muslim country to get a visa. Don't treat Islam and its requirements cavalierly. It is not a toy; it is a real faith with real obligations and should be treated with respect.

Most of the women here are not Muslim, and no one comes here saying they're going to have a fake Christian or Jewish marriage, then do a K1. They know better than to disrespect their own faiths. I don't understand why any honorable Muslim man would even suggest a fake marriage to a women he respects, much less call it "Islamic".

I'm also surprised that no one who answered this thread informed you correctly about any of this. I am not trying to be harsh, but Muslims should know better than to allow others to do this. We suffer the burden of the sins committed by those we mislead. So, have an engagement party, if you wish, but don't do what others who know less have done before you.

I don't think the person who asked the question is talking about FAKE marriage or breaking the law or anything of the sort. It's a simple question that needs a simple answer.

Yes, people can have an Islamic marriage without documenting it, and it's 100% Islamic, though it's more advised to have everything written to protect every ones rights.

The conditions of the Islamic marriage according to most schools are:

"Full consent of both partners to the marriage, and expressing the above consent through ijab (offer) and qabul(acceptance), the presence of two reliable witnesses, and in the case of females, their guardian’s consent has been considered essential for the validity of marriage according to the majority of imams and scholars."

Many people had to go through this path before applying for the K1 visa to avoid many unislamic things.

[oldahmed 38]

I don't think you are Muslim, so I want to tell you something that your fiance should have already told you. Going to a Muslim country to "marry" in a way that is not recognized by the Muslim country is not Islamic at all. You will not be married. We are directed by God to obey the law of the land we live in. So, if the intent of this "marriage" is to be alone together, then have a ceremony, but don't call it Islamic because will be nothing Islamic about it. Islam requires legality; marriage is a binding social contract with enforcable rights and responsibilities. What some incorrectly call an Islamic marriage can't be enforced because it is only between the two of you and you gain nothing from it, legally or spiritually. Even if the community knows, they have no say over your acts. This is not even the way it was done by the Prophet. It is a fable some believe.

You are worried that if you do a fake marriage in Egypt that it will hurt your chances to marry legally and correctly in the US. You should know that it is actually insulting to knowlegable Muslims for people to go to a Muslim country and flaunt their laws, but then worry that they must obey the law of a non-Muslim country to get a visa. Don't treat Islam and its requirements cavalierly. It is not a toy; it is a real faith with real obligations and should be treated with respect.

Most of the women here are not Muslim, and no one comes here saying they're going to have a fake Christian or Jewish marriage, then do a K1. They know better than to disrespect their own faiths. I don't understand why any honorable Muslim man would even suggest a fake marriage to a women he respects, much less call it "Islamic".

I'm also surprised that no one who answered this thread informed you correctly about any of this. I am not trying to be harsh, but Muslims should know better than to allow others to do this. We suffer the burden of the sins committed by those we mislead. So, have an engagement party, if you wish, but don't do what others who know less have done before you.

Also, in many countries, if you have an official marriage that doesn't make it an Islamic marriage because it doesn't fulfill the Islamic requirements of a marriage.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

ok

the only thing i did was to ask a question!!

i just wanted to know if it would be considered a valid messege IF it was done just with mazoon

Secondly ALHAMDULILLAH I AM MUSLIM I WAS BORN MUSLIM

i wanted to know if it would considered like orfi or not becuase the mazoon does not sign the paper and if he did what kind of visa would i need

You took it way out of context.

And I answered it. If you aren't married in the US and can't get a spousal visa, you're not married in Islam either.

[oldahmed 38]

And I answered it. If you aren't married in the US and can't get a spousal visa, you're not married in Islam either.

That's definitely NOT true.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I don't think the person who asked the question is talking about FAKE marriage or breaking the law or anything of the sort. It's a simple question that needs a simple answer.

Yes, people can have an Islamic marriage without documenting it, and it's 100% Islamic, though it's more advised to have everything written to protect every ones rights.

The conditions of the Islamic marriage according to most schools are:

"Full consent of both partners to the marriage, and expressing the above consent through ijab (offer) and qabul(acceptance), the presence of two reliable witnesses, and in the case of females, their guardian’s consent has been considered essential for the validity of marriage according to the majority of imams and scholars."

Many people had to go through this path before applying for the K1 visa to avoid many unislamic things.

It's unIslamic to call yourself married if you have no way to enforce your rights and you can't get a spousal visa. If you are not married in a way that allows you to be considered married in the US when you apply for a visa, you are still doing unIslamic things. True Islamic marriage requires offer, consideration (the mahr) and acceptance, as well as the witnesses, but it's not a marriage if the contract isn't enforceable and provides no protection for the parties involved. Just writing it down doesn't offer any protection.

Any scholar with your best interest in mind will admit this to you. I have a Ph.D in Islamic law and history, and I work with a dozen scholars who have dealt with the fallout of such unenforceable "marriages" for decades. In this day and age, with people taking jets and cars to travel and meet, there is no reason to do a "marriage" that isn't really a marriage, then a K1 as if you reside in an isolated village. It denies the glory of Islam, while elevating the importance of the requirements of a non-Muslim state over that of Allah.

That's definitely NOT true.

It is true.

Explain to us how your way offers protection and enforcement, also required by Allah. The offer, consideration and acceptance only covers the ceremony. What happens after when things don't go well?

Edited March 10, 2010 by Sofiyya

[oldahmed 38]

It's unIslamic to call yourself married if you have no way to enforce your rights and you can't get a spousal visa. If you are not married in a way that allows you to be considered married in the US when you apply for a visa, you are still doing unIslamic things. True Islamic marriage requires offer, consideration (the mahr) and acceptance, as well as the witnesses, but it's not a marriage if the contract isn't enforceable and provides no protection for the parties involved. Just writing it down doesn't offer any protection.

Any scholar with your best interest in mind will admit this to you. I have a Ph.D in Islamic law and history, and I work with a dozen scholars who have dealt with the fallout of such unenforceable "marriages" for decades. In this day and age, with people taking jets and cars to travel and meet, there is no reason to do a "marriage" that isn't really a marriage, then a K1 as if you reside in an isolated village. It denies the glory of Islam, while elevating the importance of the requirements of a non-Muslim state over that of Allah.

It is true.

Explain to us how your way offers protection and enforcement, also required by Allah. The offer, consideration and acceptance only covers the ceremony. What happens after when things don't go well?

"Explain to us how your way offers protection and enforcement, also required by Allah. " I have no way, and it's not MY way. I think in my previous post I cited what most scholars consider an Islamic marriage.

Also you said that what I cited " It denies the glory of Islam, while elevating the importance of the requirements of a non-Muslim state over that of Allah," but actually what you are talking about in your post are the requirement of the state, the United States, because all what your talking about is marriage vs Visa, or if your marriage is not recognized by the US then it's no marriage. While what I posted was what most scholars consider the requirement of Allah.

What does it mean "the contract isn't enforceable" according to you. Marriage was meant to be a family matter, not a lawyer matter, that's why we require a Wali and 2 trustworthy witnesses, you added that it's no marriage if the contract enforceable, but it seems to me that's your simply opinion.

Reading you, one would thing there are no abused women in the US, just because they have a contract.

[oldahmed 38]

"Explain to us how your way offers protection and enforcement, also required by Allah. " I have no way, and it's not MY way. I think in my previous post I cited what most scholars consider an Islamic marriage.

Also you said that what I cited " It denies the glory of Islam, while elevating the importance of the requirements of a non-Muslim state over that of Allah," but actually what you are talking about in your post are the requirement of the state, the United States, because all what your talking about is marriage vs Visa, or if your marriage is not recognized by the US then it's no marriage. While what I posted was what most scholars consider the requirement of Allah.

What does it mean "the contract isn't enforceable" according to you. Marriage was meant to be a family matter, not a lawyer matter, that's why we require a Wali and 2 trustworthy witnesses, you added that it's no marriage if the contract enforceable, but it seems to me that's your simply opinion.

Reading you, one would thing there are no abused women in the US, just because they have a contract.

By the way if you think that in this time that people travel in jet, there are no Muslims leaving an remote villages then you're wrong.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Another thing, one important piece of advice offered when one does one of these "Islamic marriages", then files for a K1 is that they are to deny to immigration authorities at the visa interview that they are married. men have been advised to remove their wedding ring. They may say that they had a ceremony, but if they say they are married, that is a bad thing because they are applying for a fiance visa, not a spousal visa.

So, if the "Islamic marriage" is something to be denied, it is clearly not public, as required, and not sanctioned by God, because those things which Allah has sanctioned, we have no reason to hide or lie about.

Click here for a very reasoned answer that includes reasons to legalize your union to the state. Muslims are to obey the law of the land we are in. If we don't encourage each other to marry in ways that are legitimized by Muslim scholars in their areas of the Muslim world where we visit and want not to do haraam, why do we then turn around to guide and encourage each other to obey the immigration laws of the US to get a K1 visa and marry here?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

By the way if you think that in this time that people travel in jet, there are no Muslims leaving an remote villages then you're wrong.

I know there are. I have been among them. My family is from Palestine. I am not a convert. I could be oldsofiyya lol

[oldahmed 38]

Another thing, one important piece of advice offered when one does one of these "Islamic marriages", then files for a K1 is that they are to deny to immigration authorities at the visa interview that they are married. men have been advised to remove their wedding ring. They may say that they had a ceremony, but if they say they are married, that is a bad thing because they are applying for a fiance visa, not a spousal visa.

So, if the "Islamic marriage" is something to be denied, it is clearly not public, as required, and not sanctioned by God, because those things which Allah has sanctioned, we have no reason to hide or lie about.

Click here for a very reasoned answer that includes reasons to legalize your union to the state. Muslims are to obey the law of the land we are in. If we don't encourage each other to marry in ways that are legitimized by Muslim scholars in their areas of the Muslim world where we visit and want not to do haraam, why do we then turn around to guide and encourage each other to obey the immigration laws of the US to get a K1 visa and marry here?

Let's put aside what people say and advise. That's not the topic, and to put it in simple words:

You can't ask for a spouse visa while you are Islamically married because the US does not recognize it as a marriage, but Allah recognize it. People do this marriage to be considered married in the eyes of God.

It's true that Muslims should obey the law of the land they live in, and the person who is asking wants to do just that. This kind of marriage is recognized as such in Egypt, I believe, and then when they will get here with their K1 visa they will get married according to the laws of the US.

Islam is a religion of ease not hardship.

Let's put aside what people say and advise. That's not the topic, and to put it in simple words:

You can't ask for a spouse visa while you are Islamically married because the US does not recognize it as a marriage, but Allah recognize it. People do this marriage to be considered married in the eyes of God.

It's true that Muslims should obey the law of the land they live in, and the person who is asking wants to do just that. This kind of marriage is recognized as such in Egypt, I believe, and then when they will get here with their K1 visa they will get married according to the laws of the US.

Islam is a religion of ease not hardship.

Also from the link you gave: it is not ADVISABLE for anyone to get married without legal paper.

That's just what I said previously.

[oldahmed 38]

I know there are. I have been among them. My family is from Palestine. I am not a convert. I could be oldsofiyya lol

What I meant is: 1 Muslim/muslimah living among non Muslims in a remote village, where the closest mosque is at hundreds of miles.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Let's put aside what people say and advise. That's not the topic, and to put it in simple words:

You can't ask for a spouse visa while you are Islamically married because the US does not recognize it as a marriage, but Allah recognize it. People do this marriage to be considered married in the eyes of God.

It's true that Muslims should obey the law of the land they live in, and the person who is asking wants to do just that. This kind of marriage is recognized as such in Egypt, I believe, and then when they will get here with their K1 visa they will get married according to the laws of the US.

Islam is a religion of ease not hardship.

Also from the link you gave: it is not ADVISABLE for anyone to get married without legal paper.

That's just what I said previously.

Islam is a religion of ease if you do things correctly. Advising people to do a ceremony that does not constitute a marriage they can admit to freely is not Islamic. Such a marriage, unless recognized in Egypt, will not allow her to file a K3 or a CR1. In order for it to be recognized in Egypt, it would have to be registered with the state. Even in the Prophet's time, when he was head of state, there were bureaucrats that he assigned to take care of such administrative duties. People don't know this because they tend to think they were primitive, but they were not. They kept records of the goings on in the ummah. A fine example of that is the ahadith. Mary and Joesph had to pay taxes and participate in a census.

So, what do you do when you have a "marriage" that you cannot share with immigration? You pretend not to be married, then come to the US and marry for real? In a masjid, when you should already be married in Islam? Or, in a secular ceremony, which you register with the state after all? Come on. Marriage is not something to be cavalier about. If you are bond by something you cannot admit to when it counts, you are not married "in the eyes of God". You are in a fantasy. Don't treat Islam as a fantasy you invent as you go along. Do it right the first time, then you won't have to ask if what you do instead is ok.

[oldahmed 38]

Islam is a religion of ease if you do things correctly. Advising people to do a ceremony that does not constitute a marriage they can admit to freely is not Islamic. Such a marriage, unless recognized in Egypt, will not allow her to file a K3 or a CR1. In order for it to be recognized in Egypt, it would have to be registered with the state. Even in the Prophet's time, when he was head of state, there were bureaucrats that he assigned to take care of such administrative duties. People don't know this because they tend to think they were primitive, but they were not. They kept records of the goings on in the ummah. A fine example of that is the ahadith. Mary and Joesph had to pay taxes and participate in a census.

So, what do you do when you have a "marriage" that you cannot share with immigration? You pretend not to be married, then come to the US and marry for real? In a masjid, when you should already be married in Islam? Or, in a secular ceremony, which you register with the state after all? Come on. Marriage is not something to be cavalier about. If you are bond by something you cannot admit to when it counts, you are not married "in the eyes of God". You are in a fantasy. Don't treat Islam as a fantasy you invent as you go along. Do it right the first time, then you won't have to ask if what you do instead is ok.

All what you're saying is your: opinion, assumption, and personal conclusions.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

All what you're saying is your: opinion, assumption, and personal conclusions.

What you are saying condones lies in Allah's name.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

It's out there now. People can pretend to be married in a Muslim country, so they can lay together, then come back to a non-Muslim country and get serious, ofuscate about their "marriage in the eyes of God", and follow non-Muslim law, do a K1, then really get married, if they choose. Knowing Arab cultures, as I do, a Muslim man who would suggest this to a woman doesn't respect her or his faith, as he should. I can't imagine the Prophet recommending this course of action to anyone.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Sofiyya