I'm "African American"

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You're 100% correct about that, no doubt. If I had my way all the Europeans would be out of Africa. Period. But, look at what effect it has on South Africa, and look even closer at their neighbor, Zimbabwe, once the breadbasket of Africa now worth less than #######, affirmative action causes more harm than good.

In those cases, sure - but generally? That's not a fair argument.

Neither of those countries should be used as a yardstick for how Affirmative Action policies should be designed and implemented.

[FortLaudy 10]

Ok, so I'm going to be applying for a private scholarship here in the US geared towards "African Americans" I can post you the link again, but it says, even those with resident cards can apply - interesting... how can you be African American and not be a citizen? So because I am previously disadvantaged - yes I am discriminated against in my home country - affirmative action. And because I was born in Africa I should 100% be able to qualify for this scholarship, what do you think? Since I'm white?

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

affirmative action

In the U.S., the effort to improve the employment and educational opportunities of women and members of minority groups through preferential treatment in job hiring, college admissions, the awarding of government contracts, and the allocation of other social benefits. First undertaken at the federal level following passage of the landmark Civil Rights Act of 1964, affirmative action was designed to counteract the lingering effects of generations of past discrimination. The main criteria for inclusion in affirmative action programs are race, sex, ethnic origin, religion, disability, and age. The Supreme Court of the United States placed important limitations on affirmative action programs in its 1978 ruling in Regents of the University of California v. Bakke; several subsequent Supreme Court decisions (e.g., Adarand Constructors v. Pena in 1995 and Texas v. Hopwood in 1996) imposed further restrictions. In 1996 California voters passed Proposition 209, which prohibited government agencies and institutions from discriminating against or giving preferential treatment to individuals or groups on the basis of race, sex, colour, ethnicity, or national origin. Similar measures were subsequently passed in other states. In 2003, in two landmark rulings involving admission to the University of Michigan and its law school, the U.S. Supreme Court reaffirmed the constitutionality of affirmative action but ruled that race could not be the preeminent factor in such decisions.

Horsesqueeze. Afrfirmative action promotes racism by making sure a certain number of peoplea re put into jobs they are not capable of doing well so they promote the idea that "those people" aren't very good. Brilliant racist tactic! make examples of a few of "them" and we will be sure to keep the rest where "they belong". Affirmative action is a key racist policy needed to continue racism. No one addresses the real problems

The REAL problem is that we have to eliminate the NEED for welfare and affirmative action. But who will do that? The FDA that administers the food stamp program? You think they will support a program to get people OFF food stamps? They are advertising that not all the people eligible are using them..."C'mon people, come and get your food stamps!" maybe the section 8 landlords wnat to end section 8 housing. D'ya think? Maybe Jesse Jackson will lead the ay to make all the black people independent, successful and prosperous. No? Why not? what about Al Sharpton? Maybe he will lead everyone to freedom and independence? Maybe HE wants like black people to live like I do, weithout government help, without help from a guy like him. D'ya think?

So how do we do this?

Make education a priority. How?

I. NO ONE under age 21, unless they are enrolled in high school or college or trade school/appentice program OR the US military can

1. Have a drivers license

2. Obtain loans, credit cards

3. Vote (may not be constitutional)

4. Obtain welfare or ANY means based aid, including WIC and food stamps, SSi and housing

II. Base minimum wage on grade point average.

Add $1 to the minimum wage for every grade point over 2.0. Pay for it by exempting employers from SS, FUI, SUI and Medicare for under age 21 employees. Employees would continue to contribute their portion of these payroll taxes. Under age 21, education is more inportant that contributing to a bankrupt government retirement plan that has little hope of being useful to anyone under age 21

III. PAY for college for those that qualify, trade school for those that don't.

Kids need to plan on going to school until age 21 or living without a few privileges until age 21 if they decide not to. There needs to be profound and immediate consequences for ceasing an education. Waiting until they are are 36, uneducated and on welfare and walking around saying "I shoulda stayed in school" makes no sense at all. It is OUR future also.

Limit welfare. Attach an I-864 to welfare, so to speak. If a US citizen seeks means based aid they must sign something exempting their children from means based aid. we need to stop this multi-generational welfare. If you get it, your children do not...decide.

Improving education and requiring a minimum education (until age 16 is failing our future misrably) will eliminate the NEED for welfare. Anything else is smoke and mirrors to continue racism. people are not going to overcome 300 years of racism by magic or by waitring for it to wear off when it is alive and well today. The KKK couldn't have possibly invented better programs than these

1. We'll give you a free house...live over here

2. We'll give you money for your children...if you are unmarried and unemployed and dependent

3. We'll pay for your abortion (!!!!!!!!! OMG that is straight from the KKK manual!)

4. We'll put a few of you in jobs you aren't qualified for

5. All because we believe you CAN'T do it for yourself.

6. We'll pay for you food, preferably food that makes you obese, gives you diabetes, heart disease so you die young

7. We'll pay for your medical care...if you go to this clinic...but don't worry, it is right near the house we gave you, you can take a bus, there is no need, really, to ever leave your neighborhood.

8. If a hurricane comes we will bus you to some other place to live (our choice), but who cares, it is all the same and we will pay for it.

9. If anyone disagrees we will say THEY are racist!

Edited February 9, 2010 by Gary and Alla

[FortLaudy 10]

Horsesqueeze. Afrfirmative action promotes racism by making sure a certain number of peoplea re put into jobs they are not capable of doing well so they promote the idea that "those people" aren't very good. Brilliant racist tactic! make examples of a few of "them" and we will be sure to keep the rest where "they belong". Affirmative action is a key racist policy needed to continue racism. No one addresses the real problems

The REAL problem is that we have to eliminate the NEED for welfare and affirmative action. But who will do that? The FDA that administers the food stamp program? You think they will support a program to get people OFF food stamps? They are advertising that not all the people eligible are using them..."C'mon people, come and get your food stamps!" maybe the section 8 landlords wnat to end section 8 housing. D'ya think? Maybe Jesse Jackson will lead the ay to make all the black people independent, successful and prosperous. No? Why not? what about Al Sharpton? Maybe he will lead everyone to freedom and independence? Maybe HE wants like black people to live like I do, weithout government help, without help from a guy like him. D'ya think?

So how do we do this?

Make education a priority. How?

I. NO ONE under age 21, unless they are enrolled in high school or college or trade school/appentice program OR the US military can

1. Have a drivers license

2. Obtain loans, credit cards

3. Vote (may not be constitutional)

4. Obtain welfare or ANY means based aid, including WIC and food stamps, SSi and housing

II. Base minimum wage on grade point average.

Add $1 to the minimum wage for every grade point over 2.0. Pay for it by exempting employers from SS, FUI, SUI and Medicare for under age 21 employees. Employees would continue to contribute their portion of these payroll taxes. Under age 21, education is more inportant that contributing to a bankrupt government retirement plan that has little hope of being useful to anyone under age 21

III. PAY for college for those that qualify, trade school for those that don't.

Kids need to plan on going to school until age 21 or living without a few privileges until age 21 if they decide not to. There needs to be profound and immediate consequences for ceasing an education. Waiting until they are are 36, uneducated and on welfare and walking around saying "I shoulda stayed in school" makes no sense at all. It is OUR future also.

Limit welfare. Attach an I-864 to welfare, so to speak. If a US citizen seeks means based aid they must sign something exempting their children from means based aid. we need to stop this multi-generational welfare. If you get it, your children do not...decide.

Improving education and requiring a minimum education (until age 16 is failing our future misrably) will eliminate the NEED for welfare. Anything else is smoke and mirrors to continue racism. people are not going to overcome 300 years of racism by magic or by waitring for it to wear off when it is alive and well today. The KKK couldn't have possibly invented better programs than these

1. We'll give you a free house...live over here

2. We'll give you money for your children...if you are unmarried and unemployed and dependent

3. We'll pay for your abortion (!!!!!!!!! OMG that is straight from the KKK manual!)

4. We'll put a few of you in jobs you aren't qualified for

5. All because we believe you CAN'T do it for yourself.

6. We'll pay for you food, preferably food that makes you obese, gives you diabetes, heart disease so you die young

7. We'll pay for your medical care...if you go to this clinic...but don't worry, it is right near the house we gave you, you can take a bus, there is no need, really, to ever leave your neighborhood.

8. If a hurricane comes we will bus you to some other place to live (our choice), but who cares, it is all the same and we will pay for it.

9. If anyone disagrees we will say THEY are racist!

Absolutely right. Eliminate the need for welfare... what on earth did people do when they first set foot on American soil? Did they damn well forget where food comes from? People who have no jobs have all the time in the world to grow their own damn food. Condoms, and seed packs to grow their own veg and fruit - so far that's about all I'm willing to dish out for free.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Ok, so I'm going to be applying for a private scholarship here in the US geared towards "African Americans" I can post you the link again, but it says, even those with resident cards can apply - interesting... how can you be African American and not be a citizen? So because I am previously disadvantaged - yes I am discriminated against in my home country - affirmative action. And because I was born in Africa I should 100% be able to qualify for this scholarship, what do you think? Since I'm white?

As I said are we judging the United States attempts to encourage diversity on the basis of South Africa and Zimbabwe.

You can change the subject all you want, I'm just telling you that it isn't a fair comparison.

Will you receive the scholarship? I have no idea since I have no idea what criteria are used to make the decision.

As it stands, one or two bad affirmative action policies don't mean jack.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Eliminate welfare? Sorry, I have no desire to see this country become a more brutal place than it already is.

[FortLaudy 10]

As I said are we judging the United States attempts to encourage diversity on the basis of South Africa and Zimbabwe.

You can change the subject all you want, I'm just telling you that it isn't a fair comparison.

Will you receive the scholarship? I have no idea since I have no idea what criteria are used to make the decision.

As it stands, one or two bad affirmative action policies don't mean jack.

Affirmative Action stinks and is racist, no matter which way you look at it.

I just think it's hilarious actually... What makes one an African American? and if one day I'm a citizen and I insist on calling myself African American who the heck is gonna tell me otherwise just cause I'm white?

Eliminate welfare? Sorry, I have no desire to see this country become a more brutal place than it already is.

Eliminate the need for welfare, not welfare entirely.

teach a man to fish...

[Peikko 1,575]

i don't know what job market you work in, but around here underperforming = a pink slip.

Please tell me your ingorance isn't this profound. Underperforming in the context used means simply that if you look at the statistical data, if there is X% of black people in a population you can expect X% of black people to be in positions of power and influence, the good jobs, the jobs where you get the job not simply because you have all the necessary qualifications, but because you 'look' the part, sound the part, are a 'good fit'.

FYI, I am not a big fan of quotas, but I am contemptuous of anyone that suggests that when a candidate from a minority community lands a job where affirmative action is a criteria they should resign immediately because; after all, there is no other way a minority candidate could land that job other than playing the race card. I am also contemptuous of your hypothosis that everyone that benefits from affirmative action is somehow a person of low ethical standards and that all minority candidates play the 'race card' when they apply for a job where affirmative action plays a part.

[FortLaudy 10]

Please tell me your ingorance isn't this profound. Underperforming in the context used means simply that if you look at the statistical data, if there is X% of black people in a population you can expect X% of black people to be in positions of power and influence, the good jobs, the jobs where you get the job not simply because you have all the necessary qualifications, but because you 'look' the part, sound the part, are a 'good fit'.

FYI, I am not a big fan of quotas, but I am contemptuous of anyone that suggests that when a candidate from a minority community lands a job where affirmative action is a criteria they should resign immediately because; after all, there is no other way a minority candidate could land that job other than playing the race card. I am also contemptuous of your hypothosis that everyone that benefits from affirmative action is somehow a person of low ethical standards and that all minority candidates play the 'race card' when they apply for a job where affirmative action plays a part.

From what I understood, I don't think that's what he's saying, he's saying it could possibly be excluding the best candidate, not that it always does, but of course there will be times that it does, and that is why it is senseless, wrong, racist, and unfair and completely unneccessary in America today.

[Peikko 1,575]

Oh please, South Africa isn't in trouble just because of Affirmative Action - nor is Zimbabwe. This is another example of the BY, when the White man leaves the counrty falls to ###### because black people are just not cut out to run successful economic countries. Bullshit.

[Peikko 1,575]

From what I understood, I don't think that's what he's saying, he's saying it could possibly be excluding the best candidate, not that it always does, but of course there will be times that it does, and that is why it is senseless, wrong, racist, and unfair and completely unneccessary in America today.

No, it's not senseless wrong or racist, nor is it unfair or unnecessary. I don't know what type of jobs you apply for, but every job I have ever applied for has been the ype of job where you HAVE TO HAVE THE NECESSARY QUALIFICATIONS or your application doesn't get past go. These are situations where candidates get jobs because of how they will 'fit into' the organisation. People from minorities and women don't always appear to fit into the organisation, particulary WHEN THAT ORGANISATION HAS NO PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE OF A CERTAIN TYPE OF CANDIDATE - BE THAT A WOMAN OR SOMEONE FROM A MINOIRTY BACKGROUND or disability.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Affirmative Action stinks and is racist, no matter which way you look at it.

I just think it's hilarious actually... What makes one an African American? and if one day I'm a citizen and I insist on calling myself African American who the heck is gonna tell me otherwise just cause I'm white?

Lets backtrack to that passage from Wikipedia you posted a few pages back - where is stated quite clearly that Affirmative Action does not only focus on race, but things like gender, sexuality and people with disabilities. Hell, there are even Affirmative Action policies for military veterans.

There is nothing inherently racist about Affirmative Action, the ways in which it is implemented however are another thing. Personally, I think the only way one can make fair criticism of these policies is on a case by case basis of specific policies, rather than some generalized philosophical argument.

Eliminate the need for welfare, not welfare entirely.

teach a man to fish...

Nothing suggested above amounts to "eliminating the need for welfare". What it does amount to is making value judgements on individuals seeking it.

[FortLaudy 10]

Oh please, South Africa isn't in trouble just because of Affirmative Action - nor is Zimbabwe. This is another example of the BY, when the White man leaves the counrty falls to ###### because black people are just not cut out to run successful economic countries. Bullshit.

No that's not what I'm saying, this is my personal issue with it and why I feel strongly about the topic of affirmative action and why I think it's completely BS and should not be an option. I don't care what kind of countries they run. In my eyes not everything has to be "western" to be perfect, let them have it the way they want, leave the country completely to them and walk away, just like in Zimbabwe... sure maybe they'll return to a hand-to-mouth existance, but so be it, nothing wrong with that imo. They're fine and living a sustainable life, I'm all for that. Unless someone wants me to foot the bill to bring them kicking and screaming into what's a more acceptable way (western POV) of living.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

No that's not what I'm saying, this is my personal issue with it and why I feel strongly about the topic of affirmative action and why I think it's completely BS and should not be an option. I don't care what kind of countries they run. In my eyes not everything has to be "western" to be perfect, let them have it the way they want, leave the country completely to them and walk away, just like in Zimbabwe... sure maybe they'll return to a hand-to-mouth existance, but so be it, nothing wrong with that imo. They're fine and living a sustainable life, I'm all for that. Unless someone wants me to foot the bill to bring them kicking and screaming into what's a more acceptable way (western POV) of living.

Yeah well. The United States is not South Africa or Zimbabwe, so no matter what they do over there in the way of Affirmative Action there has ####### all to do with how it is done here.

[FortLaudy 10]

Yeah well. The United States is not South Africa or Zimbabwe, so no matter what they do over there in the way of Affirmative Action there has ####### all to do with how it is done here.

It's about taking a look at the concept of Affirmative Action in general, seeing what effect it had when implimented in other countries is never a bad idea don't you think?