UK Police check - No live trace - Juvenile shoplifting crime

[paul p 0]

Jeez, u think u r a nice guy and then u do things lie this and past days bite you.

I have recieved my police certificate and it says "no live trace". I didnt know what this was as i have never committed any crimes as an adult except a few traffic offences (points on the license etc.). I phone ACRO up and they are very helpful. Got my file and phoned me back an hour later.

I have a conviction in 1984 for shoplifting. Was given a 12 month conditional discharge at the juvenile court.

So, can anyone think if this will go against me at the interview?

Assume i have to tell them?

Also on other forms i said i didnt have any convictions but i didnt know this was on my record (i thought it only counted as an adult)?

What is peoples advice?

Paul

[brlukath 1]

To some extent the best route for you depends on how juvenile convictions are treated in England and Wales (??). For many US jurisdictions, for example, you are allowed to answer no to the question "have you ever been convicted...?" if it was a juvenile offence and it happened many years ago (the rules vary). I would find out exactly what the rules are in your jurisdiction. Then, since I assume your police certificate will look different from the average UK applicant, I would prepare a declaration or an affidavit to offer with the police certificate explaining your situation and why you did not disclose initially. Something like:

[insert general declaration/affidavit opening]

On or about [date], at the age of [age], I was convicted [if they make your record secret (i.e. seal it): of a juvenile offense][if they don't seal it: shoplifting] and sentenced to [whatever your sentence was--what did the conditional discharge involve?]

[If this is true: Under the laws of England and Wales, such offenses are not counted as convictions....][if not: explain why you didn't disclose it before.]

[If this is true, something like: I have never been arrested for, charged with, convicted of, or to my knowledge, investigated with respect to, any other crime, whether felony or misdemeanor. ]

BUT, If your police certificate doesn't look different --check the regional forum for that-- the analysis would change.

For those of you disagreeing... the reason to give this sort of explanation is not that this offense (though shoplifiting could be a crime of moral turpitude depending on the exact language of the law under which you were convicted), commited as 15(?)-year-old, should cause you issues or even send you to AP/waiverland--don't get me wrong it could. But the bigger risk is that, you could get in trouble for misrepresentations or (something I have heard of only once or twice) "quasi-misrepresentations". If you get that verdict, they are saying you lied and there is basically nothing you can do. So DISCLOSE, DISCLOSE, DISCLOSE. Since it is a theft crime, I would avoid giving the details if it is possible (i.e. England and Wales don't require disclosure of juvenile crimes) and force the Consulate to ask you for details if they want them.

Edited September 30, 2009 by brlukath

[paul p 0]

To some extent the best route for you depends on how juvenile convictions are treated in England and Wales (??). For many US jurisdictions, for example, you are allowed to answer no to the question "have you ever been convicted...?" if it was a juvenile offence and it happened many years ago (the rules vary). I would find out exactly what the rules are in your jurisdiction. Then, since I assume your police certificate will look different from the average UK applicant, I would prepare a declaration or an affidavit to offer with the police certificate explaining your situation and why you did not disclose initially. Something like:

[insert general declaration/affidavit opening]

On or about [date], at the age of [age], I was convicted [if they make your record secret (i.e. seal it): of a juvenile offense][if they don't seal it: shoplifting] and sentenced to [whatever your sentence was--what did the conditional discharge involve?]

[If this is true: Under the laws of England and Wales, such offenses are not counted as convictions....][if not: explain why you didn't disclose it before.]

[If this is true, something like: I have never been arrested for, charged with, convicted of, or to my knowledge, investigated with respect to, any other crime, whether felony or misdemeanor. ]

BUT, If your police certificate doesn't look different --check the regional forum for that-- the analysis would change.

For those of you disagreeing... the reason to give this sort of explanation is not that this offense (though shoplifiting could be a crime of moral turpitude depending on the exact language of the law under which you were convicted), commited as 15(?)-year-old, should cause you issues or even send you to AP/waiverland--don't get me wrong it could. But the bigger risk is that, you could get in trouble for misrepresentations or (something I have heard of only once or twice) "quasi-misrepresentations". If you get that verdict, they are saying you lied and there is basically nothing you can do. So DISCLOSE, DISCLOSE, DISCLOSE. Since it is a theft crime, I would avoid giving the details if it is possible (i.e. England and Wales don't require disclosure of juvenile crimes) and force the Consulate to ask you for details if they want them.

Thanks for your quick response. Couple of questions....

I dont send the police certificate to the embassy do i (with the standard forms). The first they see it is when i show them at the embassy. Is this correct?

When i sign the packet 3 forms (i havent done this yet), is says any criminal offense. I assume i say yes and then put juvenile offence with the words you stated in comments box. Should i do this?

The police certificate says "No live Trace". a few people on the forum have had this and had no problems. However, i dont know if they declared it. However, i phoned ACRO and the man said if was an offense i would need to declare it. The form actually says "if your police certificate states 'no live trace' and you have not declared it, you may be asked to explain this outcome which could delay your visa application.

So, answering my own question and with your words about misleading in mind, declare it (and it is moral turpitude - jeez, shoplifting and joy-riding isnt), say it was as a juvenile, say it was a discharge and then go with the consequences.

Cant believe this is haunting me now

Paul

[Stephen + Elisha 92]

Shoplifting, broadly speaking, is considered a crime involving moral turpitude. The actual determination of whether your specific offense involved moral turpitude takes in other factors, however, including the sentence received, the possible sentence, etc.

The fact that you were a minor at the time may get you off the hook as well.

State Department Foreign Affairs Manual - Notes on visa applicants who have committed crimes: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86942.pdf

[Stephen + Elisha 92]

9 FAM 40.21(a) N7.1 Provisions of INA

212(a)(2)(A)(ii)(I)

(TL:VISA-129; 11-09-1995)

U.S. Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual Volume 9 - Visas

9 FAM 40.21 Notes Page 20 of 27

As amended, a conviction or admission of the commission of a crime of

moral turpitude will not serve as the basis of ineligibility under INA

212(a)(2)(A)(i), if the following conditions have been met:

(1) The applicant has been convicted of or has admitted to the

commission of only one crime;

(2) The maximum penalty possible for the crime of which the alien was

convicted did not exceed imprisonment for one year;

(3) The applicant has been convicted, but the alien was not sentenced

to a term of imprisonment in excess of six months regardless of the

extent to which the sentence was ultimately executed;

(4) The applicant has admitted the commission of a crime of moral

turpitude, and the maximum penalty possible for such crime does

not exceed imprisonment for one year; and

(5) The applicant is otherwise admissible.

You'll also want to look at the section about crimes committed as a juvenile.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Stephen + Elisha

[paul p 0]

Shoplifting, broadly speaking, is considered a crime involving moral turpitude. The actual determination of whether your specific offense involved moral turpitude takes in other factors, however, including the sentence received, the possible sentence, etc.

The fact that you were a minor at the time may get you off the hook as well.

State Department Foreign Affairs Manual - Notes on visa applicants who have committed crimes: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86942.pdf

This is a nightmare.

I was 15 years old (25 years ago), stole a 4 pound blank cassette tape, went to court and got a conditional discharge. Not sure what the maximum sentence was available. Probably community service.

I am currently working in UK government I.T. project and they check your police record and were ok with it. Im still owrking there. It has been "stepped down"

Now, the above is true but the court case was done due to a second offence. The first being at the age of 13 when a gang of us stole some paintings that were being thrown out. Again got a caution. So is this a second offense and therefore not allowed the exemption.

Dont even want to mention that.

Just want to mention i went to court for juvenile crime of shoplifting and received a conditional discharge.

Do you honestly think they will deny me for this?

[Allie and Nigel 2]

My fiance is in the same boat..."no live trace" for letting the air out of the neighbours tires when he was a teenager..we had to go get a "police subject access" from the local cop shop/police station, lol for 10 pounds....takes about 40 or less days to get supposably and we are hoping that it wont affect our interview either! Good luck!

[paul p 0]

My fiance is in the same boat..."no live trace" for letting the air out of the neighbours tires when he was a teenager..we had to go get a "police subject access" from the local cop shop/police station, lol for 10 pounds....takes about 40 or less days to get supposably and we are hoping that it wont affect our interview either! Good luck!

Not sure if that is Moral Turpitude. Probably be ok. If i may ask, Who told you to get the "police subject access"? Was it the US Embassy

There are links on this thread to the guide the U.S embassy use and between 15 and 18 it looks like you are fine if it isnt a felony. Yours definitely wouldnt be and mine probably isnt due to cost of the item and the sentence i got (conditional discharge).

Again, tihs is a nightmare but all i can do is go to the interview. Im allowed to work on government projects so my thinking is that a misdemeanour 25 years ago when i was still a juvenile isnt going to sway things too much. Trouble is, affidavit is slightly dodgy and something medical too. All put together may swing it. Ahh what th ehell, im a good person and they will see that. (that statement is for my benefit i think :0) ).

Paul

[Allie and Nigel 2]

My fiance is in the same boat..."no live trace" for letting the air out of the neighbours tires when he was a teenager..we had to go get a "police subject access" from the local cop shop/police station, lol for 10 pounds....takes about 40 or less days to get supposably and we are hoping that it wont affect our interview either! Good luck!

Not sure if that is Moral Turpitude. Probably be ok. If i may ask, Who told you to get the "police subject access"? Was it the US Embassy

There are links on this thread to the guide the U.S embassy use and between 15 and 18 it looks like you are fine if it isnt a felony. Yours definitely wouldnt be and mine probably isnt due to cost of the item and the sentence i got (conditional discharge).

Again, tihs is a nightmare but all i can do is go to the interview. Im allowed to work on government projects so my thinking is that a misdemeanour 25 years ago when i was still a juvenile isnt going to sway things too much. Trouble is, affidavit is slightly dodgy and something medical too. All put together may swing it. Ahh what th ehell, im a good person and they will see that. (that statement is for my benefit i think :0) ).

Paul

There's a lady awhile back ago on VJ that had the same problem with her fiance...or spouse i cant remember, and a young girl who also had "no live trace" and she came in her interview thinking she had no history, just a warning when she was little, they approved the young girl and the lady told me about the subject access and it was fine, i havent heard from her but the young girl gave me the update and all was well....keep ME posted on how you go too btw... I donno, give it a try. I am MAKING Nigel go get it just cause i'm ####### retentive....lol...and have anxiety up the yin yang....LOL....and well, he'll do whatever I damn well tell him to do! HEHEHEHE...JK.