Gates: 'A few years' of combat in Afghanistan

[DEDixon 39]

Dixon do you read at all or just spit out whatever comes to mind? Approximately 70% of Americans believed we shouldn't have started a war in Iraq... that's about 50% non-liberals. You ignorance & stereotying makes you look really bad.

Your numbers are complete BS... talk about spitting out whatever comes to mind!!!

I have liberal friends, because I live in Liberalville and even some of them were for the war in the beginning then they bailed when it got to be a tough situation in Iraq. They were fine with dropping bombs from the sky, but they barked after they realized the troops would be there for a long time and talked of nothing other than ending the war immediately. I REMEMBER QUITE WELL.

[Peikko 1,575]

Dixon do you read at all or just spit out whatever comes to mind? Approximately 70% of Americans believed we shouldn't have started a war in Iraq... that's about 50% non-liberals. You ignorance & stereotying makes you look really bad.

Your numbers are complete BS... talk about spitting out whatever comes to mind!!!

I have liberal friends, because I live in Liberalville and even some of them were for the war in the beginning then they bailed when it got to be a tough situation in Iraq. They were fine with dropping bombs from the sky, but they barked after they realized the troops would be there for a long time and talked of nothing other than ending the war immediately. I REMEMBER QUITE WELL.

The problem is though that because you have friends who have 'liberal leanings' (whatever is actually meant by this phrase because the conclusion I have come to is that it's interchangeable with fvcked) you can't translate what they believed on any particular topic on everyone else you perceive to be fvcked.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Actually the anti-war movement was in full force even before the 2003 invasion - it started when the first rumblings of intent came out of the Bush administration in 2002.

[Peikko 1,575]

I don't exactly know what went on in the US at the time as I wasn't here, but I do know that everyone I knew in the UK, apposed the war and believed Blair was a fool on this (and many other) issues. We never, ever believed the lies that were used as the premise for war but we all believed that once we were committed to it we had no option but to try to see it through to a conclusion that would lead to. at the very least stability. However, that was one of the main problems we had with going to war, WE KNEW THAT NO ONE HAD THOUGHT THROUGH THE CONSEQUENCES.

Edited to add, the consequences that should have been as obvious to the war mongering politicians as they were to us, the plebs on the ground - you remove a tyrant who holds together a country that is fundamentally tribal in nature, tribal and disaffected, and you create a power vacuum that will be filled by the most power hungry in other words civil war. Who knew? We did.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Madame Cleo

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Edited to add - there were massive protests all over the world when the US/UK went through the motions at the UN: because it was obvious to most people that the US wanted a war with Iraq by any means necessary.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I don't exactly know what went on in the US at the time as I wasn't here, but I do know that everyone I knew in the UK, apposed the war and believed Blair was a fool on this (and many other) issues. We never, ever believed the lies that were used as the premise for war but we all believed that once we were committed to it we had no option but to try to see it through to a conclusion that would lead to the very least stability. However, that was one of the main problems we had with going to war, WE KNEW THAT NO ONE HAD THOUGHT THROUGH THE CONSEQUENCES.

What I found really shocking was how totally brazen it was - used to be that corrupt governments would do their dodgy dealings behind the scenes (like the backroom agreements between Libya and the UK) to preserve some semblance of a respectable image, but to put it out on the table like that...

[Peikko 1,575]

Yeah, Blair had some kind of Napoleon complex or something. He was so convinced by his version of what was 'right' and that how one got to where he wanted to go didn't matter as long we got there. So very wrong.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Doesn't exactly say a lot for the current crop of Labour MPs that the best of Blair's cabinet (Claire Short, Robin Cook) actually had the guts to resign over the issue - and now we're stuck with the toadying underlings like Mandelson, Jack Straw and Alastair Darling.

[mawilson 2,133]

However, that was one of the main problems we had with going to war, WE KNEW THAT NO ONE HAD THOUGHT THROUGH THE CONSEQUENCES.

No-one has thought through the consequences of the health care reform bill either.

Why are you worrying what could happen years down the line?

You can't know what will happen in the future, or that there's any inevitability that the entire healthcare system will become nationalised as a result.

link

Is there a double standard when it comes to health care? (Question for Pike)

[Peikko 1,575]

I know. The election next year - I hope at least people have the decency to turn out whether or not they have any politicians with integrity to vote for. Allowing the scum bags in because of apathy is the worst possible scenario (as with the MEP fiasco). Career politicians really are not turning out to be the best way to go. I have even had an about face on the elected upper house - I can't see how having career politicians in there is going to change things for the better, no matter how dodgy some of the non elected inheritance peers are.

Don't bring the health care debate into yet another thread, please.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

However, that was one of the main problems we had with going to war, WE KNEW THAT NO ONE HAD THOUGHT THROUGH THE CONSEQUENCES.

No-one has thought through the consequences of the health care reform bill either.

Why are you worrying what could happen years down the line?

You can't know what will happen in the future, or that there's any inevitability that the entire healthcare system will become nationalised as a result.

link

Is there a double standard when it comes to health care? (Question for Pike)

(Answer for Mark) You could make that claim about any area in politics - don't know what will happen = reason to do nothing.

As far as Iraq and Afghanistan goes - what happened there was entirely predictable from the outset. You can't say the same with healthcare reform for the simple reason that noone knows knows what is going to be in the final bill.

[Joseph & Ana 0]

Thank you all (LEFTISTS) for proving my point beautifully. Still haven't refuted what anyone has said. Instead attacking terminology, and the "i'm smart, you're dumb" argument that so many LEFTISTS use.

Pike, you don't have a problem with the 70% stats? He told everyone to google it. Are you going to go after him? No, because stats that fit your ideology can be true or false, doesn't matter as long as it can be used for your propaganda.

Pike uses just as many labels as anyone, and insults as much. However, he runs around accusing whoever he disagrees with of doing just that, when he just doesn't know how to intelligently respond to an issue. He rarely responds, but just attacks the poster.

The same is done with other people as well; McCarthy was a drunk, Rush is on drugs and spews hate-speech, etc etc. They never refute the substance, just attack "qualifications" or life circumstances. Discrediting by defamation of sorts. They always do this.

This is what the LEFT constantly does, and they aren't going to stop. I'm not here to waste my time arguing with them, but to constantly keep on top of them and make sure everyone else knows that too. I don't get beaten into submission, and I don't go away. Too bad for you.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Thank you all (LEFTISTS) for proving my point beautifully. Still haven't refuted what anyone has said. Instead attacking terminology, and the "i'm smart, you're dumb" argument that so many LEFTISTS use.

Pike, you don't have a problem with the 70% stats? He told everyone to google it. Are you going to go after him? No, because stats that fit your ideology can be true or false, doesn't matter as long as it can be used for your propaganda.

No, I'm not going to google it - but I'm not going to quote it either Joe.

Pike uses just as many labels as anyone, and insults as much. However, he runs around accusing whoever he disagrees with of doing just that, when he just doesn't know how to intelligently respond to an issue. He rarely responds, but just attacks the poster.

The same is done with other people as well; McCarthy was a drunk, Rush is on drugs and spews hate-speech, etc etc. They never refute the substance, just attack "qualifications" or life circumstances. Discrediting by defamation of sorts. They always do this.

This is what the LEFT constantly does, and they aren't going to stop. I'm not here to waste my time arguing with them, but to constantly keep on top of them and make sure everyone else knows that too. I don't get beaten into submission, and I don't go away. Too bad for you.

Again with the stereotypes - the first post of mine you responded to amounted to "your a liberal, you must believe....". You have zero context for my views Joe, zero - and yet you continually generalize. I wonder where it is that you form these conclusions about me Joe - because it sure as hell doesn't seem to be based on anything I've written.

The difference Joe - is that I insult *you* based on the things that you yourself say. You insult me based on some bizarre generalized conception of what you expect me to believe.

I don't expect you to see the difference - or treat individuals as distinct from some dodgy pigeon-hole stereotype. Once again - the reason you won't do this is because it will leave you with nothing to say.

*You* Joe (you personally) do nothing more than parrot stale op-ed cliches and party political soundbites. There is no originality to your views, just as there is no hint of a critical thought (or indeed any attempt to engage opposing views on their own merits, or lack thereof).

Edited August 21, 2009 by Private Pike

[DEDixon 39]

Dixon do you read at all or just spit out whatever comes to mind? Approximately 70% of Americans believed we shouldn't have started a war in Iraq... that's about 50% non-liberals. You ignorance & stereotying makes you look really bad.

Your numbers are complete BS... talk about spitting out whatever comes to mind!!!

I have liberal friends, because I live in Liberalville and even some of them were for the war in the beginning then they bailed when it got to be a tough situation in Iraq. They were fine with dropping bombs from the sky, but they barked after they realized the troops would be there for a long time and talked of nothing other than ending the war immediately. I REMEMBER QUITE WELL.

The problem is though that because you have friends who have 'liberal leanings' (whatever is actually meant by this phrase because the conclusion I have come to is that it's interchangeable with fvcked) you can't translate what they believed on any particular topic on everyone else you perceive to be fvcked.

People with liberal leanings are not bad people to me. I like them, we need them just as much as we need neocons, right wingers, conservatives, repubs. We need everyone on the edges (far right and left) and everyone in between for all of just one is an extremely bad thing.

The "fvcked" comment is completely out of line in my opinion.

[Peikko 1,575]

Actually, the 'fvcked' comment was completely in line because you are either unable or unwilling to understand that throwing out the term 'liberal' willy nilly is totally meaningless.

The more important point I was making, and the one that you simply haven't touched on, is that you seem to think everyone who is to the left of you thinks in the same way. In fact, as has often been pointed out, the people on the left of you as regards this one issue, may well be to the right of you on other issues. So long as you apply the labels' my liberal friends' and 'you libs' to any posts your views are a mish mash of views that no one person can address.