Korat

Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Please be so kind and give an example when RUSSIA has done that.

How about when the Crimean Tartars were deported en mass to Central Asia and other parts of the Soviet Union in 1944?

Or maybe the Terek Cossacks, who in 1920 were deported or killed so that their lands could be given to new autonomous republics of other minorites?

Then if we look at ONLY Stalin, he deported completely or partially: Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Ukrainians, Poles, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia.

Sadly but true. Add Russians too (Don Cossaks and other instances). But not sure if "deporting" some (Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Russians, and Kulaks from any nation) to labor camps or Siberian exile can be defined as deportation or moving... Please do not forget that millions did not survive the "move".

But I heard Russians counter that the Americans moved the American natives off their land also. So how far can we go back?

You know just like a good Russian hockey player, I know one thing and it is attack, I dont know defense or backchecking. Damn stereotypes!!

sad but true.

Anyway I have no beef with anybody, sometimes I just like to clarify things to people of how I/we look at things from overseas

Konstantinov and Fetisov were awesome defencemen and were the reason Detroit won the Stanley cup. So you are wrong on that!!!

Kick the bear (not poke the bear) is the ticket. Obama-esque dialogue will NEVER be taken seriously by Russia. They respect only strength. They threaten to point nukes at Warsaw? We will point nukes at Moscow. Aim missiles at Prague? Good, we were looking for a reason to aim at Novgorod. They won't like it, but they will listen after that.

History doesn't back you up on this. Ronald Reagan is given a lot of credit for taking down the Soviet Union, but the strongest words he ever used with them was his "take down this wall" speech. But that was after 2 very historic summits wherein Reagan and Gorbechev simply sat down and talked to each other. Granted the USSR was headed towards collapse anyway, but those 2 summits did more for world peace than just about anything else.

Russia really doesn't want war, but they're not about to allow NATO to completely surround them. And honestly, can you blame them? The US has been acting like a colonial power for the last 8 years. If I were Russian, I would not trust the US or NATO at all. So it's only natural that they're going to posture. The trick for the US then is going to be to convince the Russians that we really are their friends, and that can only be done through dialogue.

For this group, it shouldn't be hard to understand this. When you need something from your Russian girl, what works best...a direct confrontation, or something a little more subtle? The Russian character responds much better to subtlety.

Yeah what did you get from her? Her knocked from another guy.

Russians admire power and strength. They think the west is weak and always will back down. Australia has decided that they cease exports of Uranium to Russia. Canada will do the same soon. Russia will have to kiss Kazakhstan's bum to get resources. Every Russian elite have spoken to, thinks the world needs Russia more than they need tthem. They have only 17 more years of oil left based on present reserves. They have hyper inflation and fragile banking system and housing bubble that is going to make the sub prime look small. The west have to unite and be strong. They are expecting us to be weak and can freeze us out.

I saw that this morning too. But of course it was America. Anything we can do to provoke the Russians into getting their troops to overwhelm a smaller country is in our best interest.

You know, when the truth doesn't suit you, invent something. If you tell it enough times it must be the truth.

What's really sad now, is Georgia has lost a significant part of their country and they never really worked on a solution that could have been beneficial for all. From what I've read, a good portion of each of these regions is populated by Georgians, not Russians. So, what about these people, are they the silent majority?

Somehow you, as well as US media, forget to mention people who live in these "Georgian" regions.. They are NOT georgians or russians. There must be a reason why these regions are called Abhazia and Ossetia. Did it occur to anyone that these are actually nations, live people, with their own languages, history, culture???

It takes at least some knowledge of basic facts to make a more or less reasonable opinion. Of course unless you are ####### or Condi or a retard.

This conflict is about 700 years old. Abhazians and Ossetians just do not want to be a part of Georgia, not 700 years ago, not after wars of 1992, and especially not after Georgians bombed Tsginval at night, with all civilian population in it.

I know that US schools are not the best in the world in history or geography, so we probably just have to be glad average american does not think Russians are in Atlanta.

But hey, who cares anyway? After Iraq and Afghanistan and ones before them, anyone can bomb anyone, as long as they have a will and means.

As I have said before, the world is full of ethnic/cultural groups that do not feel that they are a part of the countries where they reside. No group can claim LEGITIMATE independence by virtue of their dissatisfaction OR by virtue of recognition by one major power and its satellites. Only widespread international support will do, and that is how stability is maintained, and borders are kept constant. So some of the S. Ossetians feel like they are not happy as Georgians, and DEFINITELY eventually want to be part of Russia - SO WHAT? When the Chechens believed they should NOT be part of Russia, was that OK? Of course not. Chechnya is a part of Russia, and NO one country can reset the border unilaterally. Why should Georgia and the international community tolerate unilateral independence of Chechnya if Russia itself doesn't? And please save the "in the anals of history" and "do more research" ####### arguments. Russia should probably be hundreds of separate republics and autonomous regions based on that kind of history and research. Internationally recognized borders must be respected unless there is a UN recognised cause to discuss altering them. This is true in Georgia, Iraq, and everywhere else.

I noticed that posters who advocated Russian action in Georgia as a purely defensive course that will be over in a few days got very quiet lately. Now there is open talk of annexation of Crimea. What will be the rationalization for this?

What is next? Brighton Beach joins Russia?

Why should we go to war for Ukraine? or Georgia? To play who can p*ss the farthest with Russia? I'll put my nukes in Poland and you put your nukes in Cuba then we'll see who is the real king of the world.

NATO is a dinosaur that should have been torn down with the Berlin Wall. It's only purpose is to tease Russia with military threats. If some stupid little president of some stupid little NATO country decides to poke The Bear with a stick, then all of the NATO members have to blow up Europe to save face.

How brilliant.

You can say all day "it should be like this" or "it should be like that" but that doesn't change what it is. And NATO is an alliance. If someone in that alliance is attacked then the rest of the alliance is bound to lend a hand. Blow up Europe to save face? No. Blow up Europe to comply with our treaties? Yes.

So, what about these people, are they the silent majority?

Opinions don't really matter much in a war. Blowing stuff up seems to get noticed.

As soon as the Russian army leaves - guess who will come back to visit?

A "silent majority" has no choice but to be occupied by someone; in this case the lesser of two evils or the more powerful of the two evils depending on which side your sympathies lie.

========================================================

Did you guys catch the final Generation Kill on HBO? There was a good line one of the Marines said, "those who cannont kill will always be subject to those that will." Applies in Iraq, applies in Georgia... could very well apply right here someday if we're not careful.

Nato is a joke. Canadians, Brits, and Americans die in Afghanistan while others countries do nothing.

Unless I'm translating wrong, this article on Gazeta.Ru's site seems to confirm the above AP story, and indicates that Russia didn't get the full support than it had hoped for from the Chinese et al -- although it didn't make as big a deal about the portions of the comments which disagreed with the Russian position.

The title says: that the all the countries who met in Dushanbe supported Russian actions in S.O., But there are sources that say they also support the borders of sovereign nation.

China cannot support it or they also be supporting Tibet's independence and lose claim to Taiwan. Not a chance.

I saw on the BBC this morning that the Brit Foreign Minister is in Ukraine to discuss an "alliance against Russian aggression" and accelerated NATO membership.

This is what's truly scary. Coupled with your other post from above, this is the "make it or break it" scenario. We can ignore a country like Georgia all day long but when Ukraine cries for help we're going to have no choice but to "ante up."

I truly hope it never comes to that, but that is probably a pretty accurate scenario of what will be the final "diplomatic" action of the Cold War. Escalation will soon follow.

Scary stuff. I hope by that time I'm safely on my beach somewhere sipping drinks with little umbrellas in them because that's going to get ugly. Real ugly.

Ukraine has over 200K troops and still some Nukes hanging around. No one is going to take out forceably. Ukraine is vulnerable financially Fragile economy that its leading trading partner and still has historical ties is Russia.

You just want an excuse to go to a sunny beach and drink. Don't lie to me.!!

I'm sorry to hear about the huge inflation increases in housing. My wife's apartment is in a building that isn't properly maintained. There is a mold problem in the lower floors, due to sitting water in the basement, that is continuing to grow up. Her apartment is on the 7th floor but we wonder how much longer before it gets that high.

I'm also saddened to hear about the 40% increase in natural gas. Of course, they rely on Russia for that resource, so we see the Russians again tightening the screws on their neighbors. Russia will use whatever means to destablized the former FSU's with the intent of regaining their power over them. This is how Putin plans to recover what was the soviet union. Only this time he will make is sound like they need the Russians to care for them and take over.

I am really sorry to hear that big bad Putin makes your wife's apartment building moldy.

By the way, currently people in Russia, St.Pete, paying more for natural gas than people in Ukraine, which really pisses most off. I lived there for a while and did not like that.

Think please before you blame Putin again, no matter how popular it is to do.

Lithuania and other Baltics are paying $300/1000m2 for gas, while Ukraine was paying $100, they turning this gas selling to East Europe big bad Russia selling gas and oil for too much is REALLY dumb.

They do not have to buy it. This is the US way too, isn't it? free market?

No, it is not Putin's fault. But you have a fragile economy and loose capital system. Even Russians have over spent their income and expect that future growth will maintain their lifestyle.

Inflation is crazy.

Good friend lives in a small city. An apartment in this city cost 50K. The mortgage rate is 12%. Cost to rent the flat is $300. The income from renting the flat does not cover the interest expense. So why do they buy? They expect capital appreciation. Homes in this city have tripled since I was there in 2003. Can this continue? No, because the average wage has only increased by 10% per year. So inflation is out stripping wage increases.

I was referring to the logic of the post above.

As far as the inflation goes, and the real estate markets there, it' same in Russia. And some of the blame I would place on RE market speculations.

Same situation, even worse, is in Russia, esp. Moscow and St.Pete. Apartments cost more than in Manhattan or SF, and of course the quality is not the same. Do not think there is much more room for appreciation, so far the market was able to sustain such prices because very few actually pay money for apartments, mostly exchange purchases. So it's just a matter of time before the prices will stop going up. I'm curious to see what will happen to all these mortgages when they will flat out or go down.

Inflation is more or less usual for fast developing economies, and most new EU members experienced that too, in different levels of severity. In Russia prices of food skyrocketed too, way to fast for incomes to catch up for average consumer. But nothing to do with politics or "intent of regaining their power over them", more with economy gaining cash faster that it can absorb it.

I agree that it is speculation and you see what happens with loose banks laws and speculation with Subprime in the USA. Russia has to start taking the spending out of the market place or it faces a crisis that makes the Subprime look like nothing.

Inflation, well that is the gov't problem also. Two reasons, wealth is not even distributed what so ever and it has become a class structure and if you do not belong to this class, then you are going to do well. Look at the life in the village versus living in Moscow. Second loose credit. There is no real laws or enforcement on credit and little savings also. Now with China's economy slowing down, Oil Production decreasing, maybe sanctions from the west, and Oligarchs who moved much of their wealth outside of the country instead of reinvesting it, Russia could be facing some trouble ahead.

No one wants another cold war, but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table.

That threat ended up with Georgia loosing Ossetia and Abhazia.

Another threat will end up with some other former USSR republic ceasing to exist.

Or with "missile shield" on Cuba or Venezuela.

Same old ####. So do not say "no one wants cold war but... "

Same old US excuse, nobody wants war, but we will bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to oblivion, just to show that we can, etc.

It will only lead to loosening of standards, old story with same old ending. Everything did, does and will have a reaction from the either side.

At least until someone gets hurt. So I would say it's a good thing for now for Georgia to get hurt, neocons PNAC dudes played their little game there, it did not work out, at least it was not Poland or Hungary.

And I bet most Russians feel the same way: "but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table", but about kicking Georgia back under the table.

Diplomacy and international relations are always a matter of more than one opinion/side/country, so it is most helpful to be able to look at issues from other side too. Most in Europe or Asia understand this, unfortunately very few here do.

OK - so explain both sides to us. All I read here is one side coming from you, and a good amount of arrogance in accusing Americans of not understanding. So tell me about the non-Russian side of the discussion. If Russia is so concerned about its citizens, why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it. Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Please be so kind and give an example when RUSSIA has done that.

How about when the Crimean Tartars were deported en mass to Central Asia and other parts of the Soviet Union in 1944?

Or maybe the Terek Cossacks, who in 1920 were deported or killed so that their lands could be given to new autonomous republics of other minorites?

Then if we look at ONLY Stalin, he deported completely or partially: Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Ukrainians, Poles, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia.

Yeah Bob thanks again, But I guess its really easy to confuse USSR with Russian Federation. So I ask again " Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment?

Do I see Soviet Union anywhere in that statement?

Right Ilya - it is easy for we unsorted americans to confuse the USSR and the country that controlled it (I am not joking here - we even used the terms Russia and USSR interchangeably). Even if this view is incorrect, it is VERY easy to believe that Russia could move or just wipe out a population if necessary. It has been done in that part of the world before. If there is some radically different european reality, I really do want to hear it. When I ask the question, I only get insults, and I am now responding that way because I am so tired of it. You seem to be a staunch supporter of Putin, but also a rational person. Please tell us why Russia believes that only borders Russia wants to respect matter. Even if Russia defines the border, and then changes her mind later. I think it is completely wrong when any country does this.

I'll gladly explain to you what you want to hear. The problem might be that you just wont want to hear what I have to say.

First of all USSR regime and Russian Federation regime is very different. I really doubt in all of history of Russia there has been as much blood spilled as there has been since 1917 to 1960s. Soviet track record is very different than Russian, and thats the fact. Millions of Russians have suffered, at hands of their leaders during soviet rule. There was no such thing during Russian Fed.

And just because you believe that Russia could move or just wipe out a population if necessary is complete bull ####. And yes there is a difference between who controlled the land. Just like during Original thirteen colonies and the great migration, and who controlled the land before and after. You dont see me reaching back to French and Indian war or to Colonists vs Indian conflict where a nation, actually where a race was wiped out, mostly.

So there is no radically different European reality, but there is a different reality to what you are not accustomed to. In your reality you just prioritize on different topics than we do, and then you want your priorities to be like ours, but that just is impossible. We are different people so please learn to respect our beliefs just like we respect yours. And we do respect American beliefs because we live in America now. Just, because you cant understand why Russia does not think it is to blame, I really dont know any other way to explain in to you. Russians were outraged at what happened in Kosovo, were completely against the invasion of Iraq, and What did America do? They didnt really give two shits of what Russia had to say. Which doesnt mean America was wrong at what they did, maybe at the time it was a right decision, just like Russia thought at the time it was a right decision to strike and face the criticism/consequences. So you can stick to your view or you could just accept that most of us have strong opinions about things that is impossible (or very hard) to undersand.

And I am not really that big of a Putin fan to be honest. But the facts speak the truth, Putin has done more for Russia than any other leader in last 40 years. Soviet or Russian. Maybe Russia is wrong in the eyes of the west, but I believe they did the right thing, and there are millions like me, and these opinions are not based of propaganda either. And this conflict just like Kosovo, just like Iraq, will soon be forgotten and no more outrages claims or comparison to Nazis will be made.

And just because you are tired of something on these boards doesnt mean you should react to it. I dont agree with 70% of posters on these boards, be it at open forum or here, but I dont go crazy and call people names because I am tired of their ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Whta bout Gorbachev? He is one that completed a revolution to break up the traditional USSR. I know he is considered to be a sell out and hated in Russia.

Comparing the USSR is different, but when do you stop comparison. When the USA changes their president this year, can we forget everything that was done under GWB?

Germans are still reminded of WW2. Unfortunately, it will take a long time for Russia to lose the bad taste from the actions of the USSR. Chechens still are reminded when they forced out also. Ukrainians still remember the famine.

So when does this end? When trust is built up and all can be forgotten. Russia has not built up this trust as you can see by the reaction of the former block to the Georgian/ Russia conflict.

Somethings Putin has done has improved the banking system and pushed reforms in the manufacturing.

Biggest problem is that Putin promised reforms about the Oligarch and they are still pillaging the country.

I'm sorry to hear about the huge inflation increases in housing. My wife's apartment is in a building that isn't properly maintained. There is a mold problem in the lower floors, due to sitting water in the basement, that is continuing to grow up. Her apartment is on the 7th floor but we wonder how much longer before it gets that high.

I'm also saddened to hear about the 40% increase in natural gas. Of course, they rely on Russia for that resource, so we see the Russians again tightening the screws on their neighbors. Russia will use whatever means to destablized the former FSU's with the intent of regaining their power over them. This is how Putin plans to recover what was the soviet union. Only this time he will make is sound like they need the Russians to care for them and take over.

I am really sorry to hear that big bad Putin makes your wife's apartment building moldy.

By the way, currently people in Russia, St.Pete, paying more for natural gas than people in Ukraine, which really pisses most off. I lived there for a while and did not like that.

Think please before you blame Putin again, no matter how popular it is to do.

Lithuania and other Baltics are paying $300/1000m2 for gas, while Ukraine was paying $100, they turning this gas selling to East Europe big bad Russia selling gas and oil for too much is REALLY dumb.

They do not have to buy it. This is the US way too, isn't it? free market?

No, it is not Putin's fault. But you have a fragile economy and loose capital system. Even Russians have over spent their income and expect that future growth will maintain their lifestyle.

Inflation is crazy.

Good friend lives in a small city. An apartment in this city cost 50K. The mortgage rate is 12%. Cost to rent the flat is $300. The income from renting the flat does not cover the interest expense. So why do they buy? They expect capital appreciation. Homes in this city have tripled since I was there in 2003. Can this continue? No, because the average wage has only increased by 10% per year. So inflation is out stripping wage increases.

I'm sorry to hear about the huge inflation increases in housing. My wife's apartment is in a building that isn't properly maintained. There is a mold problem in the lower floors, due to sitting water in the basement, that is continuing to grow up. Her apartment is on the 7th floor but we wonder how much longer before it gets that high.

I'm also saddened to hear about the 40% increase in natural gas. Of course, they rely on Russia for that resource, so we see the Russians again tightening the screws on their neighbors. Russia will use whatever means to destablized the former FSU's with the intent of regaining their power over them. This is how Putin plans to recover what was the soviet union. Only this time he will make is sound like they need the Russians to care for them and take over.

My GF apartment building worse than a public toilet. I love cats, but frig they are a pest and leave their waste everywhere. To pay for something like this for $50K is crazy.

The problem is that the Ukrainian economy is highly leveraged and it is potentially going to get worse.

P.S. Prior to Saakshvili regime, you could ask any Russian and most of them would call "Georgian People" as very humble very cultural and open to anyone.

Georgians would not responded the same way.

My former Russian teacher lived in Georgia in the 50's and she felt it very anti Russian.

Ossetians and Georgians have lived in peace for a long before USSR. When the USSR came in, rules were placed on them that change how people lived together. Ossentian language was not taught at school and cultural was not appreciated. Georgians did nothing to back their neighbours.

Much can be said about certain minorities in the USA. Although many Americans think that everything is good, in actuality they believe different. Surface can look much different than what is truly underneath.

Maybe I biased, because I have many good Georgian friends and we spoke much about this topic before the Rose Revolution and after it.

Georgians lived in peace with Ossetians? You dont seem to be making any sense. just random opinions without any historical backing. And I am def sure as I have lived in Russia in Georgians that I have known were different than you describe.

My teacher lived in Georgia for 6 months and Russia almost all her life.

I played rugby with Georgians and we talked quite honest. One on one, they love Russians, but it when the gov't gets involved.

No one wants another cold war, but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table.

That threat ended up with Georgia loosing Ossetia and Abhazia.

Another threat will end up with some other former USSR republic ceasing to exist.

Or with "missile shield" on Cuba or Venezuela.

Same old ####. So do not say "no one wants cold war but... "

Same old US excuse, nobody wants war, but we will bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to oblivion, just to show that we can, etc.

It will only lead to loosening of standards, old story with same old ending. Everything did, does and will have a reaction from the either side.

At least until someone gets hurt. So I would say it's a good thing for now for Georgia to get hurt, neocons PNAC dudes played their little game there, it did not work out, at least it was not Poland or Hungary.

And I bet most Russians feel the same way: "but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table", but about kicking Georgia back under the table.

Diplomacy and international relations are always a matter of more than one opinion/side/country, so it is most helpful to be able to look at issues from other side too. Most in Europe or Asia understand this, unfortunately very few here do.

OK - so explain both sides to us. All I read here is one side coming from you, and a good amount of arrogance in accusing Americans of not understanding. So tell me about the non-Russian side of the discussion. If Russia is so concerned about its citizens, why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it. Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Please be so kind and give an example when RUSSIA has done that.

Germans on the Volga River (look at the community called Engel cross from Sartov). Chechens also.

My thoughts is this.

Support your allies like Ukraine and Georgia economically. If the economy gets better, then people generally happier and less problems with the country.

Starting treating Russia the same way it is treating the west. If they seize property in Russia, then seize their property in the west to pay for it. Reduce ability to move capital to Russia. Encourage Capital to leave.

Right now how the Oil Industry is set up in Russia, it discourages exploration. Russia is expecting significant declines in the next 5 years.

Oligarchs are fat and lazy and only want to take the cream from the existing lands and do not want to explore. Russia lacks the technology to do offshore drilling. Bureaucracy, Yukos, TNK-BP, and Georgia has made investors to be rare and the Russian

Chinese economy is starting to level out.

http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=748841

So let's bring Ukraine into NATO, and point the stick - er, gun back. Then our diplomatic overtures will be taken seriously.

Lol, you are funny.. that is the part of the problem, the US way of thinking, this side of the ocean. Without having a clue what the European reality is.

Do you really think that Norway or Greece would really risk Athens or Oslo for Kiev ?

The NATO reasoning for existence is gone long time ago, show of NATO strength in Afghanistan does not look convincing either. And just about any phrase from US that starts with "let's... " is not being met with overwhelming enthusiasm in the rest of the world in the last 10 years or so.

Russia will do as it pleases in it's backyards, and nobody will have a will or strength to do anything about it, at least in the next 20 years. Condi's barking is nothing but barking.

Mostly agreed, especially on the US way of thinking, but I don't think it's a forgone conclusion that Russia will be able to do anything they want if the West plays its cards right. Russia wants to be an economic powerhouse. I think there's a lot of opportunity to convince Russia that it's in their best interest to play nicely.

Putin wants power and if economics is the weapon, then it is ok. You are thinking one dimension. This is major chess game of political power and if the USA is fixate on the only the Queen and King, then they will be in trouble. Destablization is a major card has also. It is all about power and might.

Ukraine is about to receive 40% increase in Natural Gas. There banking system is already fragile beyond the belief and the government weak. Deposits are rarely guaranteed and I think there is more banks than toilets in Ukraine. Every Ukrianian is spending money like it is no tomorrow and expecting the economy to grow to maintain this. Flats that were 20K is now worth 50K. You can borrow the whole principle. Based on the mortgage rate, the average cost on only the interest is approximately $500 per month, but you can rent the same flat for $300. So why would you purchase a flat that cost more then you can rent?

Capital appreciation. If you believe that the average price of a home will still continue, so that you can flip the house for 50k to 60K next year, then you continue to purchase. But the price of the property has incrase so much, that average Ukrainian can no longer afford this property. You can raise the rent, because they cannot afford this also. With loose banking policies, lack of guaranteed deposits, potential huge inflation from increased natural prices, and overheated spending economy, what do you think is going to happen?

Guess who is going to get blamed?

Kick the bear (not poke the bear) is the ticket. Obama-esque dialogue will NEVER be taken seriously by Russia. They respect only strength. They threaten to point nukes at Warsaw? We will point nukes at Moscow. Aim missiles at Prague? Good, we were looking for a reason to aim at Novgorod. They won't like it, but they will listen after that.

History doesn't back you up on this. Ronald Reagan is given a lot of credit for taking down the Soviet Union, but the strongest words he ever used with them was his "take down this wall" speech. But that was after 2 very historic summits wherein Reagan and Gorbechev simply sat down and talked to each other. Granted the USSR was headed towards collapse anyway, but those 2 summits did more for world peace than just about anything else.

Russia really doesn't want war, but they're not about to allow NATO to completely surround them. And honestly, can you blame them? The US has been acting like a colonial power for the last 8 years. If I were Russian, I would not trust the US or NATO at all. So it's only natural that they're going to posture. The trick for the US then is going to be to convince the Russians that we really are their friends, and that can only be done through dialogue.

For this group, it shouldn't be hard to understand this. When you need something from your Russian girl, what works best...a direct confrontation, or something a little more subtle? The Russian character responds much better to subtlety.

again watch the Putin System.

Russia didn't get the support it wanted for pretty clear reasons. China and the others didn't want to support a position that allows separatists to claim independence. Each of those countries have problem areas with ethnic minorities wanting to rule themselves. If they supported Russia's position it was opening the door for all the various regions in each country to declare their independence.

Russia views it differently because they believe the separatist movement in South Ossetia and Abkhazia will align themselves with Russia. But, what if these two regions want to be independent from Russia too? Does anyone believe Russia will go along with that position.

Georgia's difficulties began with a change in political affiliation from pro-Russian to pro-western. This translates into who can Russia control and who they can't. It's really pretty simple. Does anyone understand why there is an oil pipeline that travels through Georgia to Turkey and out to the Med. Sea? Pretty simple again, to avoid Russian controls.

It's still about control. If it was about business then the positions would be completely different? That would involve competition, which is a new concept to Russia.

Why would China support this? If you allow Ossetia to go, then you give support for Taiwan and Tibet. Also there is break areas in the Stans. US lost respect for Koscvo.

Look at this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria

P.S. Prior to Saakshvili regime, you could ask any Russian and most of them would call "Georgian People" as very humble very cultural and open to anyone.

Georgians would not responded the same way.

My former Russian teacher lived in Georgia in the 50's and she felt it very anti Russian.

Ossetians and Georgians have lived in peace for a long before USSR. When the USSR came in, rules were placed on them that change how people lived together. Ossentian language was not taught at school and cultural was not appreciated. Georgians did nothing to back their neighbours.

Much can be said about certain minorities in the USA. Although many Americans think that everything is good, in actuality they believe different. Surface can look much different than what is truly underneath.

Maybe I biased, because I have many good Georgian friends and we spoke much about this topic before the Rose Revolution and after it.

Very one sided article.

Waste of time

You say that about any piece of information that shows Georgia as not being the boogeyman. Do you hate Georgians?

MOst Russians do have a dislike of "Cherni ludi"

Like I said before, I wore Georgian jersey in Moscow, would not be served. Changed sweater, served right away.

why would i want to hear about succesful relationship?!?!?! what can i learn about that?!?!?! i would rather hear about how mox got scammed so that i know what to avoid. if i hear about success relationship then its like "oh we wrote to each other and fell in love and got married." how does that help? thats why i want to talk to mox...........or if anyone else had bad relationship in kazzan. and jeraly the woman i am writing to knows that i distrust her and she accepts it because she knows that she has to earn my trust befor i can trust her. i think mox is required to share his experiences so to help everyone else......why should only mox learn the lessons of getting scammed.......we are communuity and need to learn from each other.........if mox wants to keep it to himself then that is selfish and he shoud just laeave and stop leaching from everyone else

If you have read, Mox does not believe that he was scammed at all. So why will he tell you that he is being scammed and when he does not admit to this.It is like asking someone how they be addicted to cigarettes when they believe they can quit at any time.

why would i want to hear about succesful relationship?!?!?! what can i learn about that?!?!?! i would rather hear about how mox got scammed so that i know what to avoid. if i hear about success relationship then its like "oh we wrote to each other and fell in love and got married." how does that help? thats why i want to talk to mox...........or if anyone else had bad relationship in kazzan. and jeraly the woman i am writing to knows that i distrust her and she accepts it because she knows that she has to earn my trust befor i can trust her. i think mox is required to share his experiences so to help everyone else......why should only mox learn the lessons of getting scammed.......we are communuity and need to learn from each other.........if mox wants to keep it to himself then that is selfish and he shoud just laeave and stop leaching from everyone else

Did it ever occur to you that the scammers might read this forum and realize that you are too smart to fall for the same thing someone else did so they will try something else. You should probably listen to success stories because therein lies the kernel for the next scam.

SCammers are getting more vicious everyday and more sophisticated. They are using the rules of your great country to place people in very bad positions.

Because one nut job who should not allowed to own a dog, physical and sexually abused his Ukrainian wife so bad that she divorced and asked the government for protection. She successfully sued the agency that sponsored her and the a$$hole that beat her up. All majority of marriages are successful (as you great men and your lovely wives will attest to). Things change or something happens in which the women are divorced and they were forced to go back to the country after giving up their jobs and maybe everything own. One group was looking to "help" these ladies by providing them jobs to be "nurses" to wealthy men. So these poor women were preyed on and then preyed on again and again. Not what you expect when you see the Statute of Liberty.

We as a country sympathized with these ladies. It has been a gov't policy to expedite Green cards and possibly citizenship when there maybe abuse in a relationship. So this got back to the bad ladies who just wanted a free ticket to the USA and it was not for love at all. So now, it is abusing the men. Without any real evidence, a man could allow a Green Card scammer in the USA just with a claim of abuse. We are quick to the blame the man when there is a beautiful lady. Alex in YO was also training these ladies to scam this way. Hell the ladies did not even write the letters.

There is the scam for a K-1 Vacation in which a lady will come here for a visit and then go back after they had enough. If you check marriage sites, you will see many young women who have lots of pictures of them in the USA. You must think how do these ladies get here when it is so difficult to get a tourist visa? It is the K-1 Vacation Visa as I call it. Alex in YO also encourages this one also.

Since the gentleman above is asking Mox about the same girl that shafted me. I will tell how I screwed over.

Quick simple, I cared so much for the dream and the belief that I allowed my poor judgment to take place. There was so many signs that I saw and knew that I should have walked away when I first met her 3 years ago. I had chance to blacklist her then and maybe it would have stopped much misery.

My advice is look at what they focus on.

Is it you or your money or your city or your family.

Talk without action equals nothing. If she says much, but does nothing, then it is time to walk away.

Do not give anything that you expect to see again until she is in the country and married. (why I am forced to go back)

If you see her, look at the photos again and see the true chemistry.

Do not sell yourself. If it does not work, then it does not work.

What saved me is that makes friends with others in her community and if they truly believe you are a good man, they will tell you the truth about your lady.

In the case of Nadya and others, some people are just horrible people and have the attitude they owed something and they will use anyone and everyone to get it, because there is someone out there that likes a beautiful lady and some crocodile tears, excuses, and kiss voila, another man hooked. You see it everyday in a American bar, why not Russia.

Number one suggestion is that you should be always willing to walk away which it what I should have done when I saw the warnings signs 5 years ago. Too many men fall in love with the idea that they are the savior of the princess from the evil dragon or fall in love with the idea of the family or the kids she has. But it is her that has to make an effort. Despite knowing the language, it is much work and hardship than you can imagine. Some ladies, it is like being dropped on another planet. That also have the ability to adapt and be willing to see things different. If you think that it will be the same as your first American GF moving in with you, then man you are in for a surprise.

Like I said before that I am sorry that I did not end it 3 years and I am sorry that I did not blacklist her then, so that the man you asking the questioning would have avoided this whole scenario which from reports from YO, she is still taking him for money and it has not ended. Although it is specific case, it is happening all the time. Most men come here and start to question, then disappear because they feel stupid and shameful. I do also, but I will gladly answer your questions and for his friends, I will avoid referring to Mox.

I think also that Mox should be left alone. He still thinks that he is this relationship despite all the warnings and even pregnancy from another man, he is still thinking that he can get this woman. Despite that she is using still him.

I have moved on and through a mutual friend, I have negotiate agreement that I will be able to retrieve a personal family item that I gave this "lady" back and despite not want to travel to Russia one more time (probably early Autumn), I will do it to retrieve this item then back to Ukraine to meet that my special someone.

If you are that worried about the lady, you can ask for investigators to find more information. There are blacklist sites also. I am sure the members here can help you find them

Holy #######, was that Korat interjecting something meaningful this time? I didn't even see a single reference to ex-fiancees anywhere. Good play, sir!

Maybe a few weeks of censorship would help them appreciate what's really important to report on.

Why not? We've already waived our rights to a few of the other Amendments, might as well let the govt. control the media too.... oh wait, they already do! Sorry.

Its all politics, there is a good reason they didnt just bolt out of Georgia. I just dont know what it is!!

How about a big pie in the face for NATO and America? Thumbing their nose to the whole world... "you want us out? Make us get out."

Perhaps the problem is that Russia does not have a very good control of its army, but will not admit it.

Russian troops that are now in Georgia consist to a large extent of rogue elements (some of them beaten by the Chechnya experience) who will not just leave once they've smelled some blood. I believe it's a rather common thing to happen in some less-than-disciplined armies.

Well, that and the Chechans actually whooped their @$$es a little. Nothing like seeing your guys on YouTube getting their heads slowly sawed off with a hunting knife and hearing them gurgle their last few breaths though all the blood. Kind of a morale killer for an army.

If the choice is to stay and rape, steal tooth brushes, etc., or go back and get your head lopped off, that's an easy choice to make!

It is when the death squads hit when Chechyans stopped fighting.

Did you that Inguish (and Dagestan) land was originally Chechen? Inguish land was given to North Ossetia and North Ossetia is where Beslan Massacre happened.

Most of the hardcore Mafia in Moscow is Caucuses people and they are extremely tough and you do not want to double cross them.

Chechyan is run but a death squad by Ramzan Kadyrov.

If you want a good movie on this, watch the Prisoner of the Mountains with Segrei Boldrov Jr (May he rest in peace)

He was an awesome actor and died at a young age in a mud slide in Rostov on Don. Great movie and I think it won an oscar.

REad this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings

Thoughts? BS or not?

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008...uth-about-1.php

Interesting article on what happened before the invasion as per a Journalist

Holy #######, was that Korat interjecting something meaningful this time? I didn't even see a single reference to ex-fiancees anywhere. Good play, sir!

Maybe a few weeks of censorship would help them appreciate what's really important to report on.

Why not? We've already waived our rights to a few of the other Amendments, might as well let the govt. control the media too.... oh wait, they already do! Sorry.

Its all politics, there is a good reason they didnt just bolt out of Georgia. I just dont know what it is!!

How about a big pie in the face for NATO and America? Thumbing their nose to the whole world... "you want us out? Make us get out."

Perhaps the problem is that Russia does not have a very good control of its army, but will not admit it.

Russian troops that are now in Georgia consist to a large extent of rogue elements (some of them beaten by the Chechnya experience) who will not just leave once they've smelled some blood. I believe it's a rather common thing to happen in some less-than-disciplined armies.

Well, that and the Chechans actually whooped their @$$es a little. Nothing like seeing your guys on YouTube getting their heads slowly sawed off with a hunting knife and hearing them gurgle their last few breaths though all the blood. Kind of a morale killer for an army.

If the choice is to stay and rape, steal tooth brushes, etc., or go back and get your head lopped off, that's an easy choice to make!

It is when the death squads hit when Chechyans stopped fighting.

Did you that Inguish (and Dagestan) land was originally Chechen? Inguish land was given to North Ossetia and North Ossetia is where Beslan Massacre happened.

Most of the hardcore Mafia in Moscow is Caucuses people and they are extremely tough and you do not want to double cross them.

Chechyan is run but a death squad by Ramzan Kadyrov.

If you want a good movie on this, watch the Prisoner of the Mountains with Segrei Boldrov Jr (May he rest in peace)

He was an awesome actor and died at a young age in a mud slide in Rostov on Don. Great movie and I think it won an oscar.

REad this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings

Thoughts? BS or not?

Perhaps the problem is that Russia does not have a very good control of its army, but will not admit it.

Russian troops that are now in Georgia consist to a large extent of rogue elements (some of them beaten by the Chechnya experience) who will not just leave once they've smelled some blood. I believe it's a rather common thing to happen in some less-than-disciplined armies.

I'm sure you're right. Although I'm also sure there was no word from the Kremlin that looting, pillaging, and other crimes against the locals would be dealt with harshly.

On the other hand, I would say the U.S. military is undoubtedly the most disciplined force in the world. And yet we still see US soldiers committing atrocities. War turns perfectly reasonable people into animals, and not just when their life is on the line, as for example Abu Ghraib. Once you start to see your enemy as sub-human, it's easy to justify treating them as sub-human or worse.

It is called the lord of pigs or Heart of Darkness syndrome. By taking someone life or group of peoples lives and making them worth nothing. Russian soldiers are proud to be Russian and Georgians are consider to be scum.

When I was in Russia, I wore a Georgian Rugby Jersey. Never was served. Went to the hotel, changed to an American Jersey, served immediately at the same restaurant by the same restaurant only 30 minutes later. My Russian instructor was a teacher in Georgia during the 50's. If she spoke Russian in Georgian restaurant, then refused to serve her. She had to speak whatever Georgian she learned or hopefully find someone with some sympathy. When Russia plays rugby(extremely violent sport ) about 2000 fans will show up. When they play Georgia, 20,000 fans will show up to watch this blood bath.

Brothers Karamazov quote "Everything is permitted" or "All is lawful."

"I think the devil doesn't exist, but man has created him, he has created him in his own image and likeness."

- Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov