KHPerfectMatch

a better question might be: why are some members unable to share their stories and experiences without a heaping side of condescension for those whose experiences have just gotten underway? some people simply don't find that palatable, and choose to comment as such. it has nothing to do with the status or security of their relationship. just that they believe they just might actually know a little bit more about their husband than strangers do.

And an even BETTER question would be:

Why do some women always believe EVERY post written about any MENA Man (clearly I was NOT married to your husband) is "really" about THEIR MAN????

I for one have never written anything about YOUR husband... I'm 100% certain you know more about him... so why do you always think "some members" are claiming to know him better than you do?

I think I've mentioned to you before that you can just put your fingers in your ears and say as loud as you can "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah" and ignore EVERYTHING I post..

really?

QUOTE (KHPerfectMatch @ Aug 13 2009, 11:20 PM) *

For those of you married to Muslim men and planning to raise their children (who will of COURSE be MUSLIM) here in the USA, start buying parenting books for your husbands... because they have very LITTLE experience with any method of controlling the behavior of children other than endless threats (VERY LOUD ONES) and eventually when shouting fails, as it always does, they move on to CORPORAL PUNISHMENT.

Eventually the subject of moving back to MENA (to raise the kids) will undoubtably come up on a REGULAR basis...and of course the Male MENA breadwinner can't leave his job here in the USA, so be prepared for the suggestion that you take the kids and go live in MENA "for the sake of the children"...

I've been watching this scenario play out for 30 years.. and it hasn't improved much with this younger generation of MENA fathers. Perhaps the exception is those born and raised here, who marry someone with a similar cultural background born and raised here... (And those couples aren't on VJ..) They seem to manage raising kids here more effectively... or at least it looks that way from the outside.

that reads pretty inclusive to me. you cast a really huge net there.

Denial Ain't Just a River in Egypt... Go ahead, put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and say "lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala I can't HEAR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" That will solve EVERYTHING

according to you here, those of us who disagree are simply in denial.

myself, and anyone else who wants to can put our collective fingers in our ears and ignore what you post, as you say. but i object to the idea that doing so = i'm in denial. that's the condescension i'm talking about.

If the shib shib fits wear it, if it doesn't pass it by... I'll be over joyed to hear in 20 years that I was 100% wrong... and your sons are all Hafiz Quran and preparing to study at El Azhar...

I'm not going to go back to that thread and cut and paste the ENTIRE thread... but I stand by my statement that women who believe that what they observed on a few brief visits to their husband's country, where they saw (their husband's) Arab Muslim parents calmly, and patiently, raising Arab Muslim Children, in Arab Muslim Countries is a good predictor of how their husbands will be raising half Arab children in Non-Muslim homes, in a Non-Muslim country. Which is actually a country very biased AGAINST ISLAM, are simply in some sort of dream world.

There's no comparison what so ever! In MENA the "village" collectively raises the children, who are raised to believe that conforming (at least outwardly for the sake of appearances) and the honor of the family is Always more important that "self-fulfillment" ... here this very liberal and disconnected society (no village at ALL) encourages "individual freedom and self-expression" not conformity, no matter what their father wants or demands...

Thinking that only OTHER people have husbands that don't have (Western style) parenting skills to raise their American born kids while trying to raise them to be Muslim in this country, which is difficult even when BOTH parents are Muslim, is extremely naive and yes - shows that they are likely in DENIAL...

I can't count the number of despondent MENA fathers I've met at the weekend school who talk about giving up on trying to raise their Americanized children in this country, because they are afraid their children will call the police if they hit them... and that's the only thing they can think of to do when shouting and threatening has failed. They LONG to take their children (sullen defiant 15 year old boys or rebellious and mouthy 13 year old girls in particular) back HOME to raise...

And I know MORE THAN A FEW women who have taken their kids back to MENA to raise at the request of the father. Back home they are not individually responsible for raising their own children.. they have HUGE extended families and neighbors who are like family (and willing to smack someone else's kid if need be) that collectively instill the value of conformity on the youth. And father's play a very MINOR role in child rearing if ANY... (more like the "good old days" when your Mom would say "if you don't stop that I'm going to tell your Father when he gets home!!!) MENA Men don't grow up expecting to actually PARENT their children. They are given the role of PROVIDING for them... Women do the raising...

I know your husband is different... And I'm full of So I promise not to say anything else that isn't exactly what everyone wants to hear...

And I have yet to see a even ONE immigrant MENA father put his child in a "timeout" or talk calmly to them when they are misbehaving... however I have seen them smacked and whacked, shouted at and slapped. Or totally ignored and allowed to destroy everything in sight...

I know I havent been married that long and my husband isnt here yet, but when I was in Egypt from Feb to Apr this last year, Ahmed did the fasting for Lent with me. He would take to church for services. He wont go in with me but waited outside for me. I found so wonderful he did that for me. Now with Ramadan is upon us, I m fasting with him even though Im not with him.

That is wonderful! Your husband is doing exactly what a Muslim man who marries a devout Christian woman is required in Islam to do..... support his wife in the practice of her faith... make sure she can attend services, and fulfill all the requirements of her faith!

I didn't know this before my last trip to Egypt, but I was told that Muslim Egyptians are not legally allowed to enter churches in Egypt. Although I'm not surprised that he didn't enter... as many Muslims are quite uncomfortable around Christian statues and people bowing in front of and kissing what they consider "idols"...

Insha'allah he will always support you in the practice of your faith, and continue to show respect for your religious traditions as you are showing solidarity with his.

I disagree with Muslims who don't believe that anyone besides a Muslim can go to heaven.. Why would Allah allow Muslim men to marry Christian and Jewish women (who become the mothers of children raised to be Muslims) if Allah knew that these wives and mothers wouldn't be in heaven with their husbands and children? Just doesn't make sense to me.... How could it be a part of Allah's plan to teach children that their Mothers are doomed to Hell because they are on a different path? I'm just so sure that it's entirely possible that more than ONE path leads to the same destination...

God bless your husband for being an example to you of a good Muslim husband.

a better question might be: why are some members unable to share their stories and experiences without a heaping side of condescension for those whose experiences have just gotten underway? some people simply don't find that palatable, and choose to comment as such. it has nothing to do with the status or security of their relationship. just that they believe they just might actually know a little bit more about their husband than strangers do.

And an even BETTER question would be:

Why do some women always believe EVERY post written about any MENA Man (clearly I was NOT married to your husband) is "really" about THEIR MAN????

I for one have never written anything about YOUR husband... I'm 100% certain you know more about him... so why do you always think "some members" are claiming to know him better than you do?

I think I've mentioned to you before that you can just put your fingers in your ears and say as loud as you can "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah" and ignore EVERYTHING I post..

WOW it must be amazing to be sooooooo righteous and all knowing about everything Arab. Oh and I forgot to mention psychic too. I don't know why all us women in the MENA forum didn't consult with the experts before we wasted our time marrying men we would never be able to satisfy. Who knew???

I'm like soooooooooooo sure your post wasn't directed at me....

In fact it couldn't POSSIBLY be about me because I never said I was righteous. I actually said I"m not a very "good Muslim"... I didn't say I was "all knowing" I said I didn't know as much as I THOUGHT I did.... I KNOW I never said ANYTHING that could be construed as a claim of being "Psychic" Geez I'd have to turn in my "Psychic" card (if I had one) considering how poorly I've done at seeing the future with men!

I do think you are right.. if you had an opportunity to consult with someone in order to better understand what you were doing and missed that opportunity that's too bad...

It must be awful "wasting your time marrying a man you can't satisfy" (YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE).... that must be really frustrating... no wonder you're so sarcastic and insulting.... Just remember, you're free to scroll right past anything that might not support your fantasies or your reality.. No one can force you to learn ANYTHING...

Good thing I put on my Big Girl panties this morning.... Sticks and Stones from snarky VJ posters don't hurt half as bad as a divorce...

I know that we have clashed on occasion, sister KH, but I think there is also much we agree on. I married a man from a Lebanese family who had been friends and business partners of our family for several generations, so everyone knew everyone well. He stayed strong in his faith while I stayed strong in mine.

Still, even as I know that marriage across faiths can succeed, and even though I believe Allah allows interfaith marriage for Muslim men and women, I don't recommend it easily, especially when their cultures are also so different. Arab Muslim families and Arab Christian families have more cultural similarities, imo, than do Arab Muslims and American non-Muslims. I applaud those who make it work between them, but I am sad to say they do not make it more often than do, from what I've seen.

It seems to me that it is the "piling on" of multiple differences that makes it harder and harder for marriages (ANY OF THEM) to succeed. I can now picture your marriage to a Christian, now that I know he was an Arab, producing 5 Muslim kids (I think you said that in a previous post).

I think it is easier on all parties involved when they know what to expect from their future husband or wife... and being from the same basic culture (MENA) and having extensive knowledge of your partner's faith and culture (as Arabs understand the faith practices of Arab Christians and Arab Muslims) in ADDITION to a long familial history (you know the "context" of how the other one was raised...) takes alot of the "guessing" out of it.

I am not an Arab... I wasn't raised Muslim, but I now know what to expect in Arab culture (after 30 years), and what to expect of a PRACTICING Muslim (after being immersed in the Muslim community for 12 years).

On the other hand, Mr. PerfectMatch knows very LITTLE about real American culture and living with a Muslim revert. And what he thinks he knows about American culture comes from watching WAY TOO MANY movies! So he has seriously flawed notions about my culture. He tries to understand my Christian upbringing through his knowledge of Coptic Christians in Egypt.... WHOA is he way off base...

When I married Super Muslim he thought I knew all about the lifestyle of devout Muslims because I had been active in the Arab community and had known (and lived among) Muslims (mainly from KSA and the Gulf) for many years. (Boy was he wrong!)

I guess on some level I thought I did too... I suspected that many of the Arabs I knew weren't very good Muslims...They prayed, they went to Jummah prayer (hung over after ladies night)... they fasted in Ramadan and then went out dancing after Taraweh... but I didn't consider them in any way like Mr. Secular (who didn't know a single surah)... and I wasn't prepared in the LEAST for life with Mr. Super Muslim!

Most American women (who meet up with Arabs/Muslims for the first time) have nothing to use as a barometer or gauge when trying to figure out what category of moral character or level of religious practice their man falls into... They have nothing to compare them to except men they know in their own culture.

I recall being very worried when listening to a lady who had married an Egyptian on her first visit to Egypt (after sleeping with him for about a week...) talking about how much she trusted her husband's intentions because he was such a GOOD MUSLIM. She later mentioned how he had smoked hashish on occasion, and how she had not seen him pray a SINGLE TIME during her trip to Egypt...

I realized how she didn't understand how to put into context those various pieces of information, he revealed or she observed, when making her decision to put so much faith into his intentions because he was such a GOOD MUSLIM... Those things (smoking hash, having sex outside of marriage, not praying for a couple of weeks) wouldn't be a big deal to most Americans (even ones raised around religion..) They might be considered "naughty" but nothing to get overly upset about... To me revelations of this nature set off alarms that could raise the dead, and I would have been running as fast as I could in the opposite direction...

Part of the reason I had high hopes for a successful marriage to Mr. Fake Muslim was because he had lived in the US for 22 years. He was a USC (no need for papers), he appeared to have maintained his cultural heritage and faith while living here all those years, and been married to a Non-Muslim American woman for about 10 years and had decided that the differences in religion and culture (she was mostly uninterested in living within his cultural norms and encouraged him to Westernize) had made it very difficult for them to get along...

He had a brief marriage to his Egyptian cousin subsequently, and discovered that he no longer fit well with someone who had never lived in the West and expected him to live completely immersed in Egyptian culture, even though they were in the USA. For reasons I won't go into in a public forum their marriage ended rather quickly. But they were based on her cultural expectations of him, that he simply couldn't meet.

We discussed the concept that he had come a long way in the direction of my culture, and I had gone a long way in the direction of his culture over the years, so we had somehow "met in the middle".. and were a good (if not perfect) match. Everyone who knew us thought so too. Too bad he had "issues" that no one else knew he couldn't control. And was simply FAKING his way...

Oh well... 3 strikes, but I'm not out yet...

Salaam, and thank you, KH. I appreciate your prompt response. I wasn't aware that you were Muslim prior to your first marriage, so I didn't realize you married Muslim men because you believe that, as a Muslima, it's the only option you have.

Actually I wasn't Muslim when I married my FIRST husband (Mr. Secular) We were both secular at the time we married. I wasn't practicing the Christian faith I was raised in (or I never would have met him...) and he wasn't practicing Islam. We were both involved in Human Rights Activism related to the Palestinian issue. He was the President of the General Union of Palestinian Students at my University. We were (in my naive opinion) "Equally Yoked" (to quote Bible scripture). What I didn't consider was the notion that after I became a wife and mother I would revert to my conservative upbringing (if not Christian at least CONSERVATIVE). After we were married I thought he would also revert and when he didn't I thought when we had a CHILD he would... (I had seen many of his friends settle down after becoming "family men".) He did not.

It was brave of you to assert that Muslim men are only to marry among chaste kitabi women, and are not to marry agnostics, atheists, Buddhists, etc. as that is plainly stated to be Allah's command for all Muslims, thus making it from sharia. In regard to your belief that the fiqh view of Muslimas marrying out is correct, I wonder how you view the fiqh assertion that it is mukrah for Muslim men to be married to a non-Muslim woman in a non-Muslim land.

I didn't consider it "brave", it is what it is. Allah's words from the Quran. (as you said "Shariah"). And I TOTALLY agree with the fiqh assertion that it is (at a MINIMUM) mukrah for Muslim men to marry non-Muslim women in non-Muslim lands.. (Go back to my post on this subject and click on the link I inserted which is pages of information exactly about this subject.)

And for those same reasons, I'd be against Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men in Non-Muslim lands, even if it was stated that it was permissible in the Quran.

In your experience, are Muslim men admonished or rejected by other Muslims when they marry non-chaste and/or non-kitabi women? What is the reaction you've seen to Muslimas who do the same?

In my community there are all kinds of view points. It all depends on who you ask. The majority of "senior members" (parents) oppose it. Maybe it's because we're old enough to see the problems it brings down the road, or maybe in the case of immigrants they oppose intermarriage between their children and anyone who isn't FROM THEIR OWN VILLAGE!!! Reasons of religion, culture, language, customs, all come into play.

One sister and her daughter brought one of the daughter's college friends into Islam over a period of years... and when the sister's son decided to marry the young lady (she was of African/Hispanic descent and the family was of Indian origins) the Muslim family disowned their son! (And the couple and their baby moved here from Canada to start a new life....) That made me sick...

Some American Muslim women (reverts) oppose mixed religion marriages for the same reason I do... Especially those of us who work in the weekend Islamic School and see the kids year after year being hauled in to the school for us to "fix" because the Muslim father didn't do HIS JOB of teaching his kids Islam, (not even by his own EXAMPLE) and the non-Muslim mother wasn't permitted to teach the children HER faith (if she still had one) so the kids aren't familiar with ANY religious teachings, values, morals, or concepts. We just can't do it! By time we meet them it's pretty much too late...

In my experience few (not NONE) just FEW devout (chaste) Christian women are willing to marry Muslim men and agree to raise their children as Muslims. They often aren't even in any position to MEET Muslim men... much less consider them as spouses... And I find the same for devout Muslim men. Typically they want Muslim women to be the Mothers of their children... And this is very true amoung the young Muslim men who are raised in this country. They know the benefit of marrying a Muslim wife... (they've been to weekend school too...)

However some American women reverts believe it can be a good thing because they themselves found Islam after marrying their Muslim husbands and believe that marriage can be a form of "dawah".

One very interesting case is a Muslim man from India who had fallen in love in his youth with a friend of his sister who was Hindu, but of course never acted on his feelings or even shared them with her because of the religious differences. Somehow both of them ended up here in my city working for Intel. She made friends with some Indian Muslims that she worked with and ended up reverting to Islam (she hadn't been a practicing Hindu, simply was Hindu by "birth"). After she reverted she ended up married to the Indian man who had loved her from afar in their youth... They are living together very happily as active members of the Muslim community.

I know of no Muslim women in our community that are "openly" married to non-Muslim men. There are at least two couples in our community (Arab wife, American husband) that I am not convinced the husband is actually a Muslim in belief/practice. However no one says anything because the women are respected leaders in the community and make HUGE donations of time and $$$$ to the community. Their husbands attend community events with them, but never seem to take part in the prayers, and don't fast in Ramadan, etc. etc. However it's none of my business...

I know of one American Sister who was advised to divorce her husband when she reverted and he did not. She did, and some time later she married the Imam. Hope he didn't have a "conflict of interest" in his advice...

I have to say that alot of the time we don't know exactly who is married to whom. Because men and women are not encouraged to sit together at our community events we don't know who belongs to who... Many men attend functions alone and we never see who they are married to.. Same with some women...

I do agree though that there is disparate treatment regarding how men who break the rules are treated and women who break the rules... Men are forgiven or simply admonished to be careful... women (if they were open aobut it) I'm SURE would be demonized... The double standard is alive and well...

And as far as anyone caring about men marrying "chaste" women... guess most people haven't a clue what the woman's history was prior to marriage (because she doesn't come from the community) so the subject isn't discussed, unless she brings it up... (Awkward moment....) not realizing that when she talks about "when they were living together before the wedding".... she's bringing shame on him and his family and their marriage in the eyes of the community.. never mind on herself...

KH thank you so much for sharing your story. Your honesty is much appreciated!

Your welcome Astarte and Dorothy... If even ONE person can benefit in even the tiniest way from what I've learned/gone through (so painfully) then at least I didn't go through it for NOTHING... But most people have to learn through their own experience, so maybe I've been painfully open with little chance of it doing any good, and just set myself up for ridicule... At my age, I just don't care... If the "elders" don't speak of their life experience who will?

I try to never regret things I've done with GOOD INTENTIONS. Mr. Secular gave me my dear son. My ONLY child. And as much as I'd like to claim him as 100% MINE, he is a part of his father and his father's family - who have passed down to him a rich heritage. He's the oldest son of the oldest son, of the oldest son of a (formerly) prominent and influential Palestinian family from Al Quds. His father's family has a fascinating history of living for over 500 years right next to Al Aqsa, drawing the water in their kitchen from the well inside the compound. I hope some day he will be able to visit and gain a better sense of his heritage.

Mr. Super Muslim did teach my son, and me A LOT about Islam. (helped me keep my commitment) He encouraged me to send my son on Ummrah after 9/11 when he was so internally conflicted about his Arab heritage, his American identity, and his Muslim faith. It was a WONDERFUL experience for a 14 year old boy... 3 weeks in Medina and 1 week in Mecca with other Arab/American/Muslim teens (and on his OWN - without Mom or Step-Dad!) I do believe that someday Insha'allah the experience he had there (by his own account) will draw him back to his belief in the One God.

Mr. Fake Muslim well... it was hard to find a silver lining in that cloud... but I did become VERY close to his family in Egypt and continue to share a very close bond with his Mother and Sisters (nieces and nephews).

I had no way of knowing that Mr. Fake Muslim was a Fake... My Egyptian Wali contacted more than 10 Egyptian men who had known him continuously for 10 or more years, and every single one of them gave him the HIGHEST regard (and he made them SWEAR to tell the truth). The Imam of his masjid reported that he was the first person to volunteer when anyone needed help and the last person to leave at the end of community events... always giving of his time and energy for the community. I had him meet with my Muslim friends who all liked him and were happy for me when I agreed to marry him. What more could I do? It was naseeb, even if I don't understand it completely...

Thanks for your kind support..

KH, I'm curious. Why did you keep marrying Muslims?

At first I thought maybe you didn't even read my post, since I thought I made it abundantly clear why I married the last 3 men... (The first time I got married I KNEW he was "Muslim" in name only so I didn't even consider that I was marrying a "Muslim" AT ALL!)

Then I went back and read your post about being married to a Christian man and I realize that you don't believe that Muslim women are only allowed to marry Muslim men.

So if you go back and read it again you'll discover that:

I married (Arab husband #2) "SUPER MUSLIM" because

• I had been living in the Arab/American community for about 19 years at that time... (couldn't imagine being married to a non-Arab...)
• I had Arab/American son (which didn't exactly make me tremendously popular with many "All American" men) who I had made a commitment to raise with a full understanding of Islam. I couldn't give him that on my own.
• I wanted to find someone with a conservative "family values" belief system that would make a faithful husband (unlike Mr. Secular) and give my son spiritual guidance and be a good role model (since his father hadn't given him ANY of that!) I also was very suspicious of men who "chatted up" single Moms with young sons. I felt very confident that Mr. Super Muslim would not molest my son.
• I thought that my problems with Mr. Secular were exactly the result of him being SECULAR. I wished to avoid a "repeat" of that.
• The few Christian Arabs that I knew drank alcohol, smoked cigarettes, ate pork and went to church on Sunday. I was raised Seventh Day Adventist and did none of those things. I found more common ground with Muslims than Christian Arabs.

Maybe he wasn't supposed to marry me, but he did.

Precisely my point... he isn't all "that" religious if he did, which might save you from problems later... (or be an indicator that a different set of problems could be in the works since he has no qualms about picking and chosing, those "rules" that he will or will not follow, when it comes to issues of practicing Islam...)

My first husband (Arab/"Muslim") told me that he was so far removed from practicing Islam that he couldn't remember a single surah (verse) from Quran to recite even IF he wanted to pray. I thought that was a sign that I wouldn't have problems with him forcing his religion on me, my parents were THRILLED that he wouldn't try to convert me, and I was right.

What I failed to recognize was the consequences on his character of his choice to turn his back 100% on the morals and values he was raised with. He committed adultery, he became an alcoholic, a drug addict, and now (25 years later) I'm getting calls from the police asking me if I happen to know if he's back in the country. The detective indicated he would like to find him because of his very ACTIVE life on the internet... (he's back in his MENA country married for the 3rd time to a 25 year old with a newborn baby, at the ripe old age of 51.) I hate to THINK what kind of "ACTIVE LIFE" he's having that a detective would like to question him about... And thankful that finally (homeless and living in an old car, or with his crack addicted girl friend) he chose to go back to MENA. He was an embarassment to his 3 sons, his brothers who live here, and the Arab community in general.

I took a 180 degree turn when I remarried 9 years after my divorce from Mr. Secular. I married Mr. Super Muslim... thinking I would avoid a man who would commit adultery, use drugs and alcohol, etc. etc. A man who would accept my Arab/American son, and help me keep the committment I made to the Imam (Muslim "minister") (when I married Mr. Secular many years before), that I would teach any children from the marriage about Islam... Mr. Super Muslim could be the role model and spiritual guide that my son's (mostly absent) father WAS NOT.

And I was right! What I failed to recognize was the "side effects" of living with someone who is a SUPER MUSLIM... Even though we discussed AT LENGTH many of the issues people have raised on this thread that I was concerned about before marriage, and I even put in my marriage contract that I was allowed to celebrate Christmas... everything changed AFTER we were married, and got even WORSE after my son and I accepted Islam. Christmas was gone, and ALL OTHER celebrations of holidays, birthdays, etc. We were not allowed to eat in restaurants that served alcohol, and forbidden a single night of camping at our favorite State Park because it was named "Devil's Lake" (I KID YOU NOT!)

I wasn't allowed to hug my male cousins at family gatherings, my son was forbidden to swim in a public pool (to prevent his 9 year old eyes from seeing a woman in a bathing suit). I had to take him in lakes to swim, (with me FULLY COVERED)... And the older my son got and the more he rebelled against these restrictions the more impatient and cold Mr. Super Muslim became with him. Eventually turning his back TOTALLY on the step-son who had ADORED him. After 8 years of marriage I couldn't take it any more. I divorced him and quit practicing "hIslam" (male dominated Islam) until I recovered and made the choice to return to Islam on MY OWN TERMS.

I then mistakenly married Mr. FAKE MUSLIM... a man who was able to fool everyone around him into believing he was a GREAT MUSLIM. Devout yet open-minded and well assimilated into the America society/culture after living here for 22 years. What they didn't know (and believe me neither did I!) was that he was only Muslim for SHOW. That he was quietly involved in many immoral activities behind everyone's backs. It wasn't until 10 months into our marriage that I discovered the truth... and SET HIM FREE!

I'm now married to my "perfect match"... someone who seems to share my "to each his own" or "live and let live" relaxed point of view about how each person choses to practice his/her religion. He's much more devout in his practice of Islam, but doesn't give me any grief about it. We have plenty of other points of disagreement and challenges, but not in the area of religion. (so far) However the issues even if they do come up will be much less difficult to "manage" because my son is not living with us, his children are not living with us, and we will not be having any children together.

I think what consenting adults chose to do, chose to agree to, chose to accept, or put up with is up to them... That's why I always frame my opposition to marriages with "mis-matched belief systems" in line with the issue of raising children.

My son does not (currently) share my belief system (even though he was a much more devout Muslim in the beginning than I EVER have been...) He does not share his Grandparents beliefs either ("Orthodox" Christians -which is how I was raised) even though they are VERY influential in his life, and have always been. He picks and choses whatever suits his own desire to do or avoid doing various things at any given moment in time. It pains me greatly to see him "blowing in the wind" uncertain of what is correct, or true, or right, IF ANYTHING...

After Mr. Secular, Mr. Super Muslim, and Mr. Fake Muslim, I am with Mr. Laid Back Muslim -my PerfectMatch.. (totally devout himself, but extremely tolerant of the beliefs and level of practice of others...) And at our "advanced age", it's doubtful that either one of us will experience earth shattering changes in our values, morals and belief systems.

Should your SO (some day) take a turn in a different direction, be sure to remind him that you haven't changed ... You are the same person with the same beliefs that he freely chose to marry. Hopefully he will remember that and keep his promises about what role his religion would play in your life and the upbringing of your children.

I wish you both success, happiness, and "synchronization of core values".. for the sake of "peace and harmony" in the family.

Most of you that responded to my post said you were both religious, but of different kinds. I think our major line is that although I consider myself agnostic, what he defines as God is not how I define it.

I'd be interested in hearing from people in a relationship where one person is Muslim and the other is Agnostic or even an Atheist.

Thanks for all the comments everyone.

One thing I forgot to mention is that if a man is a practicing Muslim (not one by birth or name only) Islamically he cannot marry an agnostic, an atheist,a Buddhist or a Hindu, etc. So you won't be able to get a response from anyone in the situation you mention unless the man ignoring a requirement of his faith.

Muslim men are only allowed to marry chaste women of the Book who are practicing their faith. (People of the Book are Jews and Christians)

Here's a link to a website regarding interfaith marriage that explains a point of view that I have seen growing rapidly over the last 8 years. http://www.islamfortoday.com/interfaithmarriage.htm

There are many Imam's (religious leaders) in the USA who will not perform marriages between Muslim men and Non-Muslim women, even Christian or Jewish women.

Sometimes it's best to lay down and play dead.

(This is the first time I've read anything by this poster with which I disagree.)

To the agents (through the closed door): "Gentlemen, thank you for your interest. Do you have a search warrant? No? Then please procure one, and you'll be welcome to come in. Otherwise, please set an appointment to talk with us, just as my husband/wife and I have been required to do every step of the way since the beginning of our legal-immigration process. That's only fair, as I'm sure you agree. Please slip your business card above the door-handle. Thanks again, and good day!"

I understand that alot of people think I should've made them hand over a search warrant, but there were a couple things standing in the way....first, i had just worked 3 12 hr shifts in a row and was kind of out of it, AND second, sometimes my husband does forget his house key (he's a ditz i know). And third, we don't have anything to hide, I would've been willing for them to take DNA off our bed to show these guys that we're together and honest! We've been waiting quite a while with NO NEWS so I was actually happy after they left. They looked satisfied, they were very polite and friendly, and stayed maybe total 4 mins at the most.

My personal opinion is, they let my fiance, (now husband), into the country fairly quickly, and I understood that they might have questions about the validity of our relationship given that I've gone through this process before. It was totally ok with me, I would want it to happen like this in every case similar to mine...sorry to say, I might make some people upset, I'm all about the security of the country, not just my happiness...

Well the good news is that you're OK with the visit... I can't for the life of me figure out how the country is more secure because anyone checks a clothes hamper, a dishwasher, or takes sheets away for DNA testing... (unless they find Osama Bin Laden's DNA on the sheets...) But if you think that it's about keeping the "Homeland Secure" then they are lucky they came to visit you...

Across the river in Portland after 9/11 there were alot of "visits" to Arab/Muslim households and because one home had a calendar on the wall with a circle around the 11th of September they hauled the poor husband away and kept him locked up for quite some time until the family Dentist could verify he had an appointment for an exam and cleaning on the 11th... The agents simply seeing a calendar in an Arab/Muslim home with 9/11 circled was enough to lock up the poor guy...

I just don't how these tactics improve our security... However I am all for prosecuting fraud simply because it is fraud... My guess is they thought they might be able to haul you in and ship him home... if they could prove you were doing this as a sort of "side line" of work... ($$ for Green Cards..)

Glad it worked out for you... ... I'm a frequent flier with those folks... (you're on #2 and I'm on #3 and have NEVER experienced anything like that)... hope they stay on your side of the river..

Personally I don't recommend it if you plan to have children. Even Muslims who are less than "devout" or haven't been practicing their faith regularly seem to become zealots when it comes to their kids being raised as Muslims. In Islam all children of Muslim men MUST be raised Muslim. And it's a mess when the father doesn't teach them and then expects them to automatically become "instant Muslims" about the time they hit puberty.

I've been in this community for 30 years and I can count on one hand the number of "mixed marriage" couples I know who are still together after 10 years of marriage.

If the Muslim man becomes totally Westernized and totally secular (non-practicing Muslim) it's more likely to last. But I've seen men like that go through a big emotional event (usually the death of their father) and all of a sudden do a 180 degree turn and become big bearded, short pants wearing, "orthodox" Muslims at the age of 40+.... and believe me it changes their marriage (to secular American women) about 180 degrees as well....

Much to be considered LONG before marriage... and even LONGER before having kids.. When your kids go to the Islamic weekend school and hear the fate of Non-Muslims on the Judgement Day (particularly Non-Muslims who had the opportunity to accept Islam and chose not to...) you'll be fuming and it won't be easy to keep quiet. No Mother wants her kids to be taught that Mom's skin is going to be torn off, then grow back so it can be torn off again.... etc. etc. etc. because she didn't accept Dad's religion....

Just my opinion, I'm sure you'll here 10x's as many that are the opposite..

Ah, Karima's the Packet 3 connection. I'm glad other people are so much more helpful than me! haha.

And as of today I'm the AOS Forms and Instructions with sample Cover letter sender/keepr too... I kept all of them in a file when we did it almost a year ago... Just shipped them all off to MyMohammed a few minutes ago... MIght as well get some mileage out of them...

actually here in Egypt they wont give you an appointment with out the letter..There are only two places to do it in cairo..The Anglo Americian hospital in Zamelek and Sharook hospital in mohendseen..You can call and ask but they wouldnt let me untill I had the letter. can you track the package with dhl?

My fiance called DHL and they have no record of the package. I emailed the embassy and got a short email back saying they sent the package August 12th. When I called the embassy today, they were very rude and said I could only contact them by email or mail and wouldn't help me.

So do you all think I should just send in the forms I know need to be sent to the embassy and wait for the interview letter then get the physical? Do you bring the physical envelope to the interview?

I have gotten conflicting information on this. We couldn't have gotten this far without Visa Journey. Everyone here is so great!

Send an email to the embassy, verify the address, tell them you haven't received the package, ask for the tracking number.

When my friend called the embassy about this same issue, they said it is FINE to print the papers online and send them in, as long as they're all the same forms. You shouldn't need the interview letter to get the physical. You do need to send the medical exam packet with the packet 3 stuff back to the embassy, you don't take it with you to the interview. But when they mail you your interview letter (after they receive your packet 3 stuff back) you WILL need to be able to receive that letter, because you have to take it with you to the interview in order to get in the door, so you need to figure out what the deal is with your address with DHL.

Does anyone happen to have a copy of the letter they got with packet 3 so we can make sure we have everything?

Am I right - that we send the paperwork back to the embassy via DHL (do we just use the general address of the embassy?) and we pay for a return envelope also - so the embassy can send us the interview letter.

I'm the Packet 3 keeper... Send me your email and I'll send you a complete copy of everything he got in Packet #3.

He never got his interview letter... he didn't need it to get his physical in Alex... there's only one doc in Alex that does them...

The info in Packet #3 was old and moldy... totally out of date... so get the info from the Consulate's website as well and get updated versions of the forms...

But at least I can send you what he would have gotten.. and it's in arabic so that's nice... he scanned the whole thing and sent it to me so I can now forward it to you...

Karima

Entering through JFK is no guarantee you'll get a Temp EAD. My husband didn't and he asked for it and they just ignored him. It took 6 months for us to get his EAD, and we filed the AOS packet one month after he arrived (actually a few days less than a month).

The AOS forms are worse than the I-129... I recommend that you read the instructions very well...

If you want I can send you all the forms... Just send me your email address in a PM and I'll send them. You should always look for updated versions of the forms, but it's been 10 months since we did them so they should still be "pretty fresh"..

K

Jamal's 21 now, but he's the only "MenaWeed" of mine... these are my shared "MenaWeeds"... Youssef 21, Es'raa 18, Tayseer 7

Ahlan Wa Sahlan.... Lots of us married to Egyptians on VJ... Is he from Cairo? Alex? Elsewhere?

"We" are from Alex (I've been there so much it feels like a 2nd home to me). And always spend time in Cairo too since he and I both have relatives there to visit...

You're very fortunate to have had the opportunity to spend so much time together... Best wishes for both of you.

K

I agree with you and I really would love the opportunity to live in Egypt for a while. Fortunately I work online as an ESL teacher so my work can go anywhere that I have access to high speed connection.

I do have a house but am prepared to rent it.

The biggest issue we face is that he hasn't completed his military yet....

anyone have any good advice for this...

That's way cool that you can work from anywhere... you can certainly get access to high speed internet in any large city in Egypt.

Be prepared to stay until he's completed his military service. And consider whether or not you want to live there without him during that time... Unless you have a GREAT relationship with your in-laws, or speak fluent Arabic, I wouldn't recommend it. It's very difficult to live there alone as a Western woman.... I know women who do it, but they are all over 50.... (and one walks with a cane that come in handy at times...) I have stayed alone in Alex for short periods of time, but had many friends and relatives (Egyptian and North American) to help me out.

Are you Muslim? It would likely be easier for you if you are, but not alot easier... With him going into the military I can see why you want to spend some time with him before he goes... but living there while he's gone would not be easy.

Where would you be living Cairo? Alex? Elsewhere???

First of all, if you can, go and live with him in Egypt. It will be a much better start to the marriage to be where he is able to be the provider and the protector, etc. It is very difficult for Egyptian men to be dependent on women. If he comes here on the K-1 or K-3 Visa it could be 6 or more months before he can work and he will become very restless and perhaps even get depressed sitting here doing nothing. (I speak from experience...)

Living there with him he can be in charge, and you can get to know each other better and start your lives together on his territory, rather than yours. If you have children, or a very good job, a house, etc. this could be difficult, but if not, I'd really recommend it. You can file from there like you said after 6 months, and he can come here with you eventually with permission to work from day 1.

Chances are you'd benefit greatly from learning more about his culture and lifestyle. And it never hurts to establish a close relationship with his family and observe him with his friends in day to day life over an extended period of time.

You can easily find ways to keep yourself busy there. There are many ex-pat women from the USA and Canada in Cairo and Alex that you can pal around with. (Assuming he's from one of those two cities.) You can study Arabic and Islam (if he's Muslim and you are planning to have children)...

If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't do it any other way...

Our Congressman's Immigration Liason was a LIFE SAVER. After my husband arrived and we filed for AOS our case went into limbo because they didn't send him an appointment for biometrics. From the time he called USCIS on our behalf until he had his appointment was about 3 days. He actually called me at noon and asked if we could be to the office for the appt. at 3:00 the same day! We had it all done before we ever got the letter.. This loosened the log jam and he had his work permit within about 3 weeks. And his green card about 1 week after our interview...

My Congressman is from an Immigrant family and he gives a HUGE amount of support to his constituents in situations like ours...

Denial Ain't Just a River in Egypt... Go ahead, put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and say "lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala I can't HEAR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" That will solve EVERYTHING..... Or you can all band together, dismiss everything I say with a grain of salt and try to ridicule me into silence... Frankly my dear.... I didn't build the Aswan DAM

If it makes you feel better go ahead and stick your head completely in the sand and pretend everything is coming up roses and lollipops and YOUR man is TOTALLY different.... There now feel better? Sit back do nothing and count on your being correct.

It's so brilliant to compare the parenting style and method observed in his MENA family, done completely in MENA, with his 100% Muslim born, and raised MENA siblings that never stepped foot out of their country (until perhaps they were GROWN) etc. to raising halfers in the USA in a 100% non-Muslim environment, non-Muslim schools, with a bias for children's rights over parental rights... It's a PERFECT comparison!!! FLAWLESS.. you can take that assumption to the BANK... Everything he learned from them about parenting will work EXACTLY the same here!!!!

Ever seen those Egyptian-American men in the airport in Cairo dragging their sullen half American kids around by the ear, shouting "you can't back talk me HERE smartazz! try calling Child Protective Services on your cell phone here!!!! One more wise crack and I can beat the ####### out of you!!!! In fact, I'll call the police for you and THEY will beat the ####### outta Ya!"...

Post again when you're son is 13 and wants to go to a mixed swim/slumber party.... and your husband thinks that's a GREAT idea! THEN I'll listen to you brag about how different he is. Or better YET, post when your daughter is 17 and has been asked to the prom and your husband offers to pay for the strapless gown with the split up the front..... I'm sure MOST MENA fathers YOU KNOW are totally jiggy with that! Of course I'm making all this stuff up... it's sooooooooooooo far fetched...

Obviously I've only seen the 1% of frustrated MENA fathers with poor parenting skills who not LIKE your men....

I quit drinkin' the Kool-Aid long ago, you keep on if it makes you feel better.... Sit back and wait and do NOTHING....

While the subject of this thread made a more daring "unacceptable choice" than any of the kids I've known (by running away and converting to Christianity) I'm nearly 100% positive that her parents didn't react with patience, understanding and tolerance, like I'm sure all of YOUR husbands would have... And had they been better prepared for the effect moving to this country would have on their ability to control and guide their children, they might have stayed where ever they came from.

Dismiss me as stupid or crazy... or whatever else you want to call me... it's your kids who would benefit from you paying attention and at least considering the minute possibility that it would be good to prepare for the future... Don't waste your time trying to paint me as a whacko...

We may not know all the facts but one thing we do know for sure is that if it were a Christian girl and ran away to a Muslim home , they would have been arrested, tried already by the media, etc... that I do know.

Tried AND Convicted, and on a plane to Gitmo or the "SUPER MAX" prison in Colorado... (or a basement dungeon at FOX News Headquarters) never to be seen or heard from again.

There would be a "Shock-u-mentary" made about the girl's TERRIFYING experience played continuously on FOX to convince and terrorize the American public that "THOSE TERRORIST PERVERTS" are here not only to kill you, but to kidnap your innocent Christian daughters, force them to convert "BY THE SWORD" and sell them into the "heathen harems"of dirty infidel despots... I can see it already....

BTW, in case anyone is under the impression that ISLAM (not Muslims) condones honor killing, or prescribes the death penalty for apostasy (leaving Islam)... it's just not true... there are plenty of MUSLIMS who believe this... but it's not ISLAM.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...d=1119503543392

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Apostasy1.htm

On the other hand.... if the incident in Ohio happened in Egypt (and stuff like that does happen) there would be rioting in the streets for DAYS...

Thank goodness most Americans are a lot less emotional about such things... (quick, before I forget, let me write that in my book of reasons why I'm glad I live here....)

For those of you married to Muslim men and planning to raise their children (who will of COURSE be MUSLIM) here in the USA, start buying parenting books for your husbands... because they have very LITTLE experience with any method of controlling the behavior of children other than endless threats (VERY LOUD ONES) and eventually when shouting fails, as it always does, they move on to CORPORAL PUNISHMENT.

Eventually the subject of moving back to MENA (to raise the kids) will undoubtably come up on a REGULAR basis...and of course the Male MENA breadwinner can't leave his job here in the USA, so be prepared for the suggestion that you take the kids and go live in MENA "for the sake of the children"...

I've been watching this scenario play out for 30 years.. and it hasn't improved much with this younger generation of MENA fathers. Perhaps the exception is those born and raised here, who marry someone with a similar cultural background born and raised here... (And those couples aren't on VJ..) They seem to manage raising kids here more effectively... or at least it looks that way from the outside.

Thanks for the input! I did not mean for "squeaky wheel" to have a negative connotation!! I have contacted the embassy via email before and the DOS and talked to a live person. Both times I was extremely polite and almost apologetic- and all I got were standard answers..so I just questioned doing this time and time again. We are obviously in the computer; we are obviously in AP; it is just a matter of waiting.

I guess one downside I see to calling or emailing is that they get so many of these inquiries each day, no wonder it takes so long for things to go through! Wonder if they hire someone just to do inquiries..

That said, I will definately make it my job to email and/or call DOS each week to check on the status now that our 120 days is coming up in AP.

I just do not want to do ANYTHING that will hurt our chances of this going through..as quickly as possible.

Thanks again.

I can't say what other Embassy's do, but Cairo does have people who seem to do nothing but answer email.. And they are Egyptians.... not Americans (so it costs the Embassy small change to hire them).

I forgot to mention that I am nearly certain that it helped when I mentioned in one of my emails that it was only about a month until Ramdan began and that it was very difficult for me to plan a wedding in the USA when I hadn't a clue if he would be arriving BEFORE Ramadan, DURING Ramadan, or AFTER Ramadan... It was not long after that email that they wrote to me and told me they were "bringing our file to the IO's attention for final processing"... and he got the Visa before Ramadan

(but he stayed for Ramadan with his family anyway...).

When we were having problems here with the AOS process I decided to call my Congressman's office. My husband FREAKED OUT, he was CERTAIN that complaining about their slow processing would make the USCIS angry with us and it would SLOW DOWN the processing... BOY was HE WRONG! I actually told my Congressman's Assistant of my husband's fears and he decided to give it an EXTRA effort just to show him that he wasn't in Egypt any more and that asking your Congressman for assistance wouldn't penalize us. If it wasn't for his help, we'd probably still be waiting for the green card! He really helped us A LOT! And my husband was totally impressed... especially over the fact that I didn't have to GIVE him anything to help us, or FOR helping us.... No Baksheesh expected, or required...

Best of luck to you and your SO....

I have mixed feelings about emailing the embassy every week- perhaps someone can shed some light?

Does the "squeaky wheel" really get the grease here? Or does it just come down to waiting for them to call or put your "completed" status up on the website?

I do not want to keep bugging them each week if all they are going to say is that it is pending; on the other hand, if there is a chance that my app might go through quicker because of it, I want to do it.

?? What is the purpose of emailing each week? Won't they email/call when the time has come?

Thanks.

I think they are irritated by squeaky wheels... and if people get aggressive or overly impatient, or prematurely (whatever that is) impatient it could create a new red flag, or maybe a little intentional slow down to show "who's the boss"...

There's a difference between being assertive, while being consistently polite, business-like, and cooperative, by making offers of any thing they might still need, etc. etc. and being a squeaky wheel...

I contacted them every time I didn't understand something asking for clarification.. and then when they claimed they had everything they needed, I contacted them about once every week or two to ask for a "status update". I always copied them with their last email indicating that everything was "done"... and it paid off. I think it's not safe to assume as written above that everything will happen as it's supposed to in due time..

This is a HUGE bureaucratic complex you're dealing with.. One that has few if any checks and balances or expectations of customer service. Accountable to ???? basically no one... So cases falling through the cracks is probably very common. There's no way to know whether contacting them consistenly makes the process faster, or whether it just makes it keep moving as it should... Either way, what's the harm?

I also believe that it is BEST if 99% of the contact is from the USC. I have noticed that most government workers feel at least 10% more responsible to treat the USC with some level of courtesy than they do to non USC's.

Again, the key is polite, firm, assertiveness. Not squeaking wheels or aggressive impatience.... I notice that I get suspicious and frustrated when I read repetitive aggressive and impatient posts on VJ from the non-USC, so I can only imagine how the Embassy staff must feel...

Bottom line, enough contact to keep the train on the tracks, but not so much (or so aggressive) that they decide to let it derail... and say "oops"... I think in our case that persistence paid off in the form of them not being able to be mad at me, but getting a little weary of my consistently POSITIVE AND COMPLIMENTARY emails just asking oh so politely for an update on the status...

My family sent many, many, many packages from the US to family members in Cairo via regular US postal service that never ever made it to our desired destination in Cairo.

The system here def. sucks but oh the joy of receiving Bath and Body Works... or a comparable item. You have no idea the luxury of life we enjoy in the US until you try living in Egypt.... using the products here... from hygiene products to clothes, etc. - they absolutely do not even compare in quality... aah, how I miss the US.

My favorite story is the friend who sent a fancy party dress to Egypt for her husband's little sister and it arrived about one year after she sent it... WORN AND DIRTY... Must have been a quasi-honest mailman with a daughter about the same size... LOL

I totally relate to you missing products from home. I saw some nice products when I was in Egypt but they are HORRIFICALLY expensive (even by American standards) and I also wondered how many years they had been sitting on the shelf because of the price... I simply tried to find a decent moisterizer for my face and had trouble...

However, I noticed that my SIL's etc. never really got all that excited about the bath products I brought them because they don't really use that stuff much and had nothing to compare with, so the fact that our products are so much better was probably lost on them. They did love perfume and make up... especially the kits (assortments of makeup etc.) that they sell around the holidays. Which fortunately are alot lighter than big jugs of liquid products. But the number one request for all the years I've been going is VITAMINS. And now Glucosamin/Chondroitin (sp) for everyone's bad knees and Fish Oil... they are getting sophisticated... LOL Dang those Costco bottles of pills are HEAVY!