CarlE

Russ,

You're a stronger man than I. If it were apparent to me that my wife had that kind of an exit strategy and we divorced, I could not provide the kind of assistance you are planning to give. Not only for the obvious reasons, but also I would be wary of putting some kind of hope into her head that if anything else goes wrong for her in the future, even if she's with another man, she could come to me for help. In the situations I've seen, it's sometimes been a shoulder to cry on, sometimes a quick "roll in the hay", and many times financial support.

I'm sure some folks have some ideas on whether or not someone who changes their mind one year into the marriage has the right to say "I deserve to keep this standard of living" and remain in the country. It's not so hard to understand...once most have been exposed to it, they look for a way to stay unless they've got some very compelling reason to go back home. Like maybe a very close family or other personal connection.

Perhaps it has more to do with how we individually define love. Some believe you fall in love with one person in your lifetime, and even if things don't work out with that person, you continue to love them and devote yourself to them forever. I know I personally have a threshold of pain that I can endure from a person that close to me, and past that any love I had can be burned away.

Not trying to judge or insult, Russ. Perhaps these comments I'm making are my own way of imagining myself in the situation and what I would do....therapeutic in a way. Then again, maybe I'm just spewing a bunch of bullsh*t.

Russ,

I applaud you for staying strong. Whenever someone is confronted with a situation like this, it's not only painful, but there is a lot of soul-searching. I personally support your decision. If you feel like discussing some of it, feel free to PM me.

Much better to do this kind of stuff BEFORE leaving the country of origin.

Cheers!

AKDiver

Agreed, although sometimes it can't be helped. For example, growing up in a different country than the one you were born in, and having problems getting people to accept your Soviet birth certificate (no apostilles back then).

Has anyone used the Horos firm? (www.horos.ru) They look professional and can do what we need, but I'm looking for some other experiences with them to get a better idea of their track record.

Has anyone here had experience with requesting a Russian birth certificate while being outside of Russia? I've heard some horror stories about having to wait 7 months (was requested through the ZAGS of another FSU country), and other long times. Has anyone requested one through a Russian embassy or consulate? How about requesting it directly from an office or official by mail?

This info has received not a whiff of interest on one of the Russian boards, so I'm posting it here in case it can be of some benefit to somebody later on:

EMBASSY TO ZAGS IN 32 HOURS

I just got back from a trip to Ukraine and wanted to post a little about my experiences getting all my paperwork done so we can get married on August 11th. If this is in the wrong spot, feel free to move it to the appropriate forum topic. It just didn't seem like there was any single good place for it since it's not yet a real Immigration item.

I will place one disclaimer on the "32 hours" part of the title. I have a very good relationship with a company in Simferopol named "Linguist", which allowed me to get translations and notarizations done much quicker than usual. Having said that, they are still very professional and very reliable and I would recommend them to anyone who is going through this process in the Crimea.

I had read on these boards and elsewhere that it could be possible to get the Letter of Non-Impediment to Marriage (LONITM) and get it legalized/apostilled over at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Kiev in a single day. This was our goal and we had tickets on the late evening flight to Simferopol on Monday the 26th of June. If we didn't make it on Monday, we had back-up train tickets for Tuesday. Due to the limited office hours of some locations and the need to submit paperwork both in Kiev and Simferopol, we essentially had only two days to get everything done.

The first stop was, of course, to the American Embassy in Kiev on Monday, June 26th. The Consular Affairs section is actually in a different location than the Embassy itself. Consular Affairs is located at 6 Mykoly Pymonenka St. I had information that they opened for business at 8:30, but by 8:15 when we got over there, they were already accepting folks. There weren't two lines on that day (US/non-US), but some people told us if you had a US passport you could just worm your way to the front of the line to go through the metal detector and on up to where you need to go. My fiancee stayed outside while I went in. Once inside the compound. the building straight in front of you is the Consular Section. On the 2nd floor, past the lines of Ukrainians waiting for their appointments and around the hallway to the right, you will see the room for "American Citizen Services." There are two windows and a small waiting area with toys for kids. Just ring the bell at one of the windows and you get your blank LONITM to fill out. You will also be instructed to pay $30 at the cashier right around the corner. This is where the only real waiting time I had turned out to be. Their computer system was down, so they couldn't take my payment. After waiting for 20 minutes, they finally gave me a hand receipt and I brought the completed form back to the ACS window. They roused a Consular Officer out of bed somewhere (the guys working the ACS windows were Ukrainians), I signed at the bottom and he stamped and signed it. I would highly suggest making sure you have your fiancee's personal data written down somewhere before you enter. If you are alone and without your mobile phone (they retain them at the guard post) you want to be ready to answer questions like home address, birthplace, full name, etc. I was out and on the road by 8:45.

The next stop was the Ukrainian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The office wasn't actually in the large semi-rounded building with columns, but was in a smaller building just to the left of that one. I was expecting some serious lines here, but when we showed up just after 9 AM, there were only about a dozen folks with various documents waiting in line. We actually went through the line four times in the following order:

1. Fiancee stood in line to find out if we needed "legalization" or just to get it apostilled. There were two different examples of how to fill out the request laying on the table, but it turned out that "legalization" does both to your document. (I was off exchanging money at the time)

2. Fiancee completed the form for legalization and we took my LONITM to the window. They told us we had to pay at the cashier and sent us off to that line. (34 gryvna or so for a one page document and same-day service)

3. We brought back the proof of payment and they said I needed to fill out another form with my details (passport #, etc.) since I was the one requesting the legalization. It would act as the receipt for the document. (This form was nowhere to be seen on the tables)

4. We submitted the document, the application for legalization, my "receipt" page, and showed proof of payment. They told us to come back to get it after 4 pm.

I can see how this place could get pretty hectic if there were more people in line. The fact that they didn't have all the forms out on the tables and even some misleading examples slowed us down a bit. But we were still able to get out of there around 10:40, well ahead of the 12:30 cutoff for submitting documents. We came back at 4pm and got the legalized and apostilled LONITM within 15 minutes and we weren't even one of the first 10 folks in the door.

Monday evening we flew to Simferopol.

Tuesday morning I went to Linguist at 8 am on June 27th while my fiancee went to go stand in line for the Ministry of Justice in Simferopol. This was the point where we were a little unsure about how things would go. I couldn't find any real example of someone else transiting this process in Simferopol and even some of the information on the Embassy web sites (both US and Ukrainian) turned out to be wrong. My fiancee had spoken to ZAGS and was told the only documents they would need from me were the LONITM and my passport, both translated and legalized/apostilled. NOTE: a notary's stamp is NOT the same as an apostille. While a notary is enough to certify a document in the US, it is not the same in Ukraine (or at least in Crimea/Simferopol). I had read online that they would want a copy of my birth certificate as well, so I brought it along and was planning on getting it done just in case. Because of my relationship with Linguist, I was able to scan and email my passport ID page and my birth certificate (front and back) to them ahead of time so they could do the translations ahead of time. The LONITM was to be done that early Tuesday morning (the 27th) and then we would take the mess over to a notary and then go join my fiancee in line. They could not take the translations to be notarized ahead of time, as the originals need to be present when they notarize the documents. The first hitch came when they looked at the birth certificate. It was a legal, certified copy made in 1984. The translation office said the notary would not be able to do anything with it since there was no apostille on it. I'm assuming since the document was produced over 20 years ago, it did not get apostilled back then. It just had the typical raised seal and State notary info on it certifying it as a legal document. It wasn't a big issue, but I was hoping ZAGS had told my fiancee correctly about what documents they would need. We went to the notary's office and they notarized everything on the spot. I got to the Ministry of Justice around 9:30. The line was quite small (less than 5 people), but we still had to wait about half an hour until our turn came. A representative looked at the LONITM and passport documents and then told us to come back after the lunch break (after 2 pm) to get them. She gave us a payment stub to take to a bank and bring back proof of payment when we came to get the documents. We got them at 2:10 pm and headed over to ZAGS. One last note about the Ministry of Justice. My fiancee had to wait almost 4 hours the first time she went there to ask them a question. They have a guard inside the front door who keeps track of whose turn it is (tell him who you are there to see), but if you get stuck behind somebody with a lengthy problem, it could get difficult.

That morning on the way from Linguist, I had noticed at 8:30 there was already a line of 20 or so couples at ZAGS. When we got there around 2:30, there was maybe one couple ahead of us. Ten minutes after we arrived, another five couples showed up. We had to fill out an application (more on this in a moment) and take a payment stub to the bank across the street to pay the fee (something like 120-130 gryvna). They we came back in and presented the application, our documents, and the proof of payment. We requested.a wedding date later than what was currently being scheduled, but it only took an OK from the boss (the door on the right at the end of the hall) to let us schedule in advance... no bribe or gratuity necessary. We were out of there by 3:30 pm with our wedding date and time fixed, and completely shocked that we were able to get everything done in the two days we allotted for it.

But then of course there was a problem.................

My fiancee asked me a question the next day about where I was born. Turns out on the application they listed South instead of North and now she was extremely worried about the problems this could cause. Place of birth is listed on the marriage certificate and any discrepancies like this could get picked up by US Immigration when we will file our packets. Sooooo, we had to wait until the next Tuesday (July 4th) to go back and get the change on the application done in the morning before my flight out of Simferopol at 12. Let me go off on a little sidebar rant for a second. The entire process of visiting government offices in Ukraine definitely leaves a lot to be desired. I do really like the fact that you get a personal touch with the interview/presentation of the document(s), but everything else needs some improvement. First of all, most offices are limited as to the days they are open for certain functions. For example, the Central ZAGS in Simferopol is only open Tuesdays and Wednesdays to accept registration applications. The Wednesday of the week I was there (the 28th) happened to be a Ukrainian holiday, so they were closed. The Ministry of Justice in Simferopol is only open on Tuesdays for document legalization. This is basically the reason I had to do everything in two days or run the risk of having to wait another week before I could finish the process.

Back to the North/South issue. My plane was leaving at noon and so we would have to get out of ZAGS by 11 to get to the airport. ZAGS opens at 9 am on Tuesdays and I was hoping we'd have the same kind of luck we had the week before. Well, we didn't. I got to ZAGS around 8:20 AM and there were only four couples waiting. I was feeling good until I approached them and found out there was a sign-up list for the order of the couples and 18 other couples had already been there to sign up. By 8:45 there were lots of people there. The registration representative came out and told everyone she would be taking in 5 couples at a time according to the list, and she handed out the payment stubs to those who needed them (and they promptly scurried off to find a bank to make the payment). She cut off the sign-up list at 25 couples and told the rest to go to a different ZAGS. But from my experiences in the afternoon the week before, it might be possible to avoid the lines and get the day you want anyway. The whole idea of taking 5 couples at a time lasted approximate 10 minutes. The first 5 couples went in, and soon one or two people were going up to the main door to poke their heads in and ask a question. Of course, some couples began to think perhaps they could go in, so by 9:30 the waiting area was inside in the long hall instead of outside. The representative came and cleared the hallway, reminding everyone about the list at around 9:40. Within 10-15 minutes everyone was back inside and they didn't make another attempt to restore order. We found out that we didn't really need to go in the big line since we were needing a correction, but instead jumped into the smaller line which formed for those who needed to see the "Boss." The staff there is basically two people to handle the registration applications...the Boss and one other person. The Boss was supposed to start seeing people around 10, but we could see someone had snuck into her office early so the rest of us went up and started waiting right outside the door. There was one lady who came in and tried to jump to the front of the line. By the way she and her daughter were dressed, I could tell she came from a fairly wealthy background and was probably used to getting her way wherever she was. After a few minutes of arguing with her, she at least understood that she wasn't getting ahead of ME . At any rate, at around 10:30 we got into the Boss' office and told her what our problem was. Since all the documents were already bound together in one packet, she didn't want us to fill out a new application. She took a razor blade and an eraser to our application to give us enough room to correct it to read "North." I also discovered the words for North and South in Ukrainian start very similarly so it wasn't a huge slip by the other lady at ZAGS. We brought a little box of chocolates for the Boss to show our appreciation and gave them to her afterwards. I must say that although they could be very stern in the hallway and dealing with the masses pressing forward to see them, both ladies were very nice and downright friendly once we got behind closed doors.

On a final note, I asked one of the ladies at ZAGS about the number of Americans they see in Simferopol. She claimed they got about one a week, which suprised me quite a bit since I never see very much about Simferopol on these boards.