deeshla

Yay for stereotypes! Woo-Hoo! Stereotypes make us laugh!

/sarcasm

I got pregnant in Morocco -- and we were not married yet (oh the horror!). Nobody cares. If anything it seemed to speed up the process. Our entire visa journey/process took 1 month start to finish. Good luck.

I want to make one final post then I'll just fade into the woodwork. This morning for the first time I put on a lovely short sleeved shirt, exposing the colorful blotches on my arms, and came to work. I drew a smiley face on one of the bruises and realized God has tapped me on the shoulder and given me a wonderful opportunity to recreate myself. It made me smile. Yes, I love my husband. That makes me smile too. It doesn't mean what he did is excusable and I don't know really know if he will be with me again or not. I have today. I have on short sleeves with no regret or shame, I have a smiley face on my left arm and a smile on my face and a hope in my heart and THAT is what will get me through this whether I return to him or send him packing.

You can think I'm crazy, but the American Indians held a belief that the Great Spirit would leave tokens and reminders of things to come, sometimes in the form of an animal appearing unexpectedly, a face in the clouds, a sudden breeze. Yesterday morning I had to leave to work early. I vomitted twice and felt so unbelievably tired. As I was walking to my car, a white feather fell at my feet. I said, "Thank you, God." I went home, slept 6 hours, spent the evening watching tv with my teenaged son and woke up this morning with hope that whatever the future brings, it will be ok.

You are in denial. I really hope you get the help you need.

I haven't had time to read the other responses, but I wanted to say that I think almost all of us with ME/NA SOs have experienced this from someone close to us. The media has bred so much ignorance and those who lack real experience of a different culture just are not capable of understanding your point of view. What I found was it took time for people to get to know my husband and to begin to see he's not such a bad guy or an opportunist. Now my parents are so nuts about him its annoying to me. LOL These were the people who said they could NEVER accept that I married "one of those people." I know your frustration and your pain, but all any of us can do is stand in our present truth, whatever it may be and take strength in that. No one knows the future or what it will bring, but we do have today. The truth will speak for itself. Hugs.

i have to disagree with your comment about people who "lack experience of a different culture" feel this way...

my parents are well educated and well traveled (and my dad is even an immigrant) but still feel this way.

i think its just them not understanding my love for someone with so many obstacles yet wanting to take these risks anyway. they think i should find someone here who i would have less of a chance of having problems with. more logical thinking i guess. yes i could easily marry an american with similar beliefs to myself and STILL have problems, but in their eyes it would still make my life easier.

I think it can be lack of a experience but it also isn't necessarily the case.

The reality is these relationships are not necessarily easy. I think some of the concerns friends/family express are real issues that can arise and should be considered (most men will want to raise their children Muslim, Morocco will not let children leave without the father's permission, etc). My stepfather, mother and aunt have all lived in the Middle East. They were and continue to be supportive of my marriage but they did address things they thought my husband and I should discuss - most of which we already had. However, they did bring up a few things we had not explored as deeply and I am glad we dealt with those things. Also, on their advice, I talked to some family friends that are in Arab/American marriages who were able to offer real life experience. Anyway, I think the concerns can be a positive thing if you listen with an open mind rather than just putting up a defense. So many people find themselves encountering problems they never anticipated that can be big struggles and by exploring their concerns, you can may end up resolving some things earlier than later.

You beat me to it!

I have read these responses and thought of this issue in a different way. It must be very very hard to see your daughter leave the country and fall in love with someone over the internet -- and not know what is going to happen. This is not necessarily prejudice against Arabs or Muslims, but a real concern and yes, fear, about the welfare of a loved one. I have to admit, if my sister (if I had one) told me she was in love with some guy from Fill-in-the-blank country and that she was travelling to see him and possible get married -- well, I might wonder for a moment if she had gone crazy. Over time, and after meeting these wonderful husbands, family will ease up, I think -- and so would I.

Point being -- try to understand their concern as a good thing. It is difficult for most of us to fathom an internet affair, especially one that traverses oceans and continents and cultures. A parent that has seen you go through a painful divorce might also feel a little sensitive about seeing you embark on a (let's face it) risky adventure (in a country where you will be totallly dependent on someone you met over the internet).

Having said that, the blantant anti-Arab and anti-Muslim sentiment is not fair (I also had a few friends tell me to go watch that movie "Not Without My Daughter." Feh!) and I agree about how terrible and frustrating that is.

Someone above (I think abdouandjen) wrote about her father not being understanding and being an immigrant himself - I think this speaks for itself - he has a GOOD reason to be concerned, It is difficult for immigrants to get (decent) jobs here, especially at first. It is had to make a cross-cultural union work, especially at first. And it would be unloving for a parent / sibling / friend to not at least question what you are doing.

Like Rebecca said above -- there are other reasons. Many countries in question have some pretty f**cked-up laws regarding women and children. In Morocco a woman cannot leave the country with her children without the husband's permission. There are laws that punish women and reward men. If your family does any little bit of research they are sure to find these things out.

Remember, they haven't met your prince charming yet -- and when they do, Chwiya b Chwiya (little by little) -- they can learn to love him the way that you do. But I think it is fair to give them the buffer of concern and questioning up front.

I realize I have written only of marriages via internet - but I do see that a lot of people here on VJ MENA have met online.

Amanda

baraka - 'enough' or 'ok' ->surprised nobody said that yet!

waheshni - 'i miss u'

dush (with 'u' pronounced as in alphabet) - 'shower'

kuli (same 'u') - eat

bsmilia - what you're supposed to say be4 eating, taking a shower or whatever good thing you're doing if you're a muslim(a)

aji nti (nta) - reply to 'aji' - you come here, 'nti' for a man, i think, 'nta' for a woman

behher - 'how ru doing?' (i think)

bliati - 'later'

Sorry to correct (teacher mentality) but it is:

"Twa7shatek"= I miss you

"Bismillah" means In the Name of God

"Onta" for you (male) and "Onti" or "Ontiya" for you (female)

"bletty" for wait (literally means one moment)

"bekhir" means How are you? (Really just means Good/Fine?)

"baraka" means grace but has come to mean "that's enough" (especially in conjunction with the ubiquitous "safi")

Here are some bad ones: "khnouna" meaning SNOT, "7azuk" meaning FART and "zeb" meaning ####### There are many times I have said: "3andak zeb seghir, mbrouk 3lik" to those men who harrassed me on the street.

Does anybody have an explanation why there is only such a small number for people from Tunisia? Especially compared to Morocco?

I have no clue but when you look at it on the map it's wicked tiny.

Might have something to do with poverty levels. May not be as many guys looking to get out of Tunisia. Just a wild guess.

I met my husband 3 years ago in my first training week in the Peace Corps. He was a private contractor doing a water project in the village where I was doing my language and technical training. We dated for a while and got engaged after about a year or so. We "lived in sin" after that until we finally got married last summer. It was very anti-climatic! We were best friends from day one.

Deeshla, which stage were you in? Was it the March 2004? I might have met you if your training was in Ouarzazate (can't remember if that was the health or environment sector)

I also met my guy in the Peace Corps about 3 1/2 years ago. I lived with his family temporarily when I moved to my assigned town. He was going to school in Erfoud, so I only saw him a few times. He was immediately smitten, but it took me a while (two years!) to end another relationship and see the truth!

Hi Liz! I was in the maternal and child health stage February 2003 but hen we were evacuated when the war started.

I came back in October 2003 for a mini-stage (I believe I stayed with your stage a bit in Fes and we swore in together - I was the one who did the speech in Tamazight). Finished August 2005.

I remember a Liz. Do you have red hair?

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding on what is sharia is and how it varies from country to country. We usually hear sharia only when it is describing extreme, harsh punishments. In many cases, wordly punishments are being given to crimes when there was no clear cut wordly punishment from the Qur'an, or the punishments are deduced from contradictory ahadith. I think the problem lies in interpretation and implementation.

Morocco has sharia family law, and I think the family law is rather fair.

I agree except for the nicely hidden law about lesser sentences for men killing adulterous wives (crimes of passion). Also, the Mudawanna is not enforced in the bled. But it is a nice try from ole' Malik.

I am a mother to a 9 week old baby and a freelance writer/editor. My academic background is anthropology, my vocational background is maternal / child heath and Alzheimer's care.

DH enjoys writing "Amazigh" in the blank next to "other." Let them figure it out! My ob/gyn forms asked for the race/ethnicity of our baby and I had no idea what to write. There is no choice for 1/2 Irish, 1/2 Amazigh on the form! I thnk we made up something.

I met my husband 3 years ago in my first training week in the Peace Corps. He was a private contractor doing a water project in the village where I was doing my language and technical training. We dated for a while and got engaged after about a year or so. We "lived in sin" after that until we finally got married last summer. It was very anti-climatic! We were best friends from day one.

o DRs and RNs any tips for women who want to become pregnant?

Be in optimal health (healthy weight, etc), take folic acid (a good pre-natal vitamin), lots of Omega-3s (eat fish and/or take flax seed oil) and have lots of sex!

Congrats!

We just had our baby in November, his name is Noor or "The Hybrid" or Captain Mustard-Pants.

The lowdown -- crazy pregnancy of travelling all over Morocco, gave birth in Tennessee (natural delivery, NO MEDS! I thought I was going to die). He was almost 9 pounds.

Oh, and I gained 60 pounds during the pregnancy. (Most of it from Mexican food and calamari.)

So you travelled to Morocco during pregnancy? Any problems? We want to go this summer (in my 2nd trimester), but I was afraid of any complications that might arise (also the money issue but that's another story).

I was living in Morocco when I got pregnant and came back to the states at 6 months pregnant. It was summer and I lived on a fifth floor apartment (no elevator) so it was getting ridiculous. But I had no complications and didn't start really feeling pregnant until month 7.

I say go for it! You have the most energy in your 2nd trimester anyway and they airline restrictions don't usually start ntil week 32 or so. Enjoy Morocco and indulge taste buds (and crazy cravings). I know a good ob/gyn in Rabat if you need an emergency medical contact while you are in Morocco.

Congrats!

We just had our baby in November, his name is Noor or "The Hybrid" or Captain Mustard-Pants.

The lowdown -- crazy pregnancy of travelling all over Morocco, gave birth in Tennessee (natural delivery, NO MEDS! I thought I was going to die). He was almost 9 pounds.

Oh, and I gained 60 pounds during the pregnancy. (Most of it from Mexican food and calamari.)

As most of you know my hubby and I will be flying to Morocco in a few weeks. I have a few last min questions for those who have been to Morocco. Thanks!

1. Did you have to get any vaccinations before your trip?

2. What exactly is the weather like this time of year?

3. How long should we give ourselves before our flight to go through security and check-in?

4. Where exactly can I find the new airport security laws?

5. What can I expect when I get to the airport in Casablanca?

6. Do we have to pay any tariffs for any of our items we take to or from Morocco?

7. Am I allowed to bring my videocamera on the plane or do I have to check it? (really don't want to)

8. If I happen to get sick or injured while in Morocco, is there such a thing as travelers insurance? If so, where can I find it and who is the best provider?

Ok that's all I can think of for now. Thank you very much for reading this and hopefully replying.

Janine

1.) No. Nothing is required or needed.

2.) I would have to ask - where are you going in the country? In January and February it is biting ###-numbing cold to the point of wanting-to-die cold. I mean it. If you are going to the south, desert or mountain areas be prepared for extreme cold. If you are going to the coast, well then lucky you! It won't be as bad. I am sure your husband has told you how cold the inside of concrete homes get. There will always be the sun to thaw you out during the day.

3.) 2-3 hours

4.) Not sure about that one, but don't sweat it. Just don't bring any liquids in your carry-on.

5.) Pretty straight-forward. Someone might try to bribe your husband (Moroccan in America = rich person in their eyes) though.

6.) Nope. Just don't take out any dirhams.

7.) You can bring it.

8.) Depending where you are, you can get good, affordable health care in Morococ. Please, whatever you do, do not go to a public clinic (sbitar, dispensaire or centre de sante - I have worked at these places and they are subpar by Western standards). Look on the consular website for a listing of English-speaking doctors. Bring a first aid kit, but know that Moroccan pharmacies will have everything you need.

Good luck!

Amanda

Edited after reading other replies -- IT IS COLD IN MOROCCO. Even if there is an amazing Saharan sun beating down on you during the day, nights will be cold unless you are on the coast. Bring more than a jacekt -- bring a coat and long underwear (omy favorite -- silk long underwear from L.L. Bean).

Those of you saying Morocco is warm this time of year are NUTS.

As most of you know my hubby and I will be flying to Morocco in a few weeks. I have a few last min questions for those who have been to Morocco. Thanks!

1. Did you have to get any vaccinations before your trip?

2. What exactly is the weather like this time of year?

3. How long should we give ourselves before our flight to go through security and check-in?

4. Where exactly can I find the new airport security laws?

5. What can I expect when I get to the airport in Casablanca?

6. Do we have to pay any tariffs for any of our items we take to or from Morocco?

7. Am I allowed to bring my videocamera on the plane or do I have to check it? (really don't want to)

8. If I happen to get sick or injured while in Morocco, is there such a thing as travelers insurance? If so, where can I find it and who is the best provider?

Ok that's all I can think of for now. Thank you very much for reading this and hopefully replying.

Janine

1.) No. Nothing is required or needed.

2.) I would have to ask - where are you going in the country? In January and February it is biting ###-numbing cold to the point of wanting-to-die cold. I mean it. If you are going to the south, desert or mountain areas be prepared for extreme cold. If you are going to the coast, well then lucky you! It won't be as bad. I am sure your husband has told you how cold the inside of concrete homes get. There will always be the sun to thaw you out during the day.

3.) 2-3 hours

4.) Not sure about that one, but don't sweat it. Just don't bring any liquids in your carry-on.

5.) Pretty straight-forward. Someone might try to bribe your husband (Moroccan in America = rich person in their eyes) though.

6.) Nope. Just don't take out any dirhams.

7.) You can bring it.

8.) Depending where you are, you can get good, affordable health care in Morococ. Please, whatever you do, do not go to a public clinic (sbitar, dispensaire or centre de sante - I have worked at these places and they are subpar by Western standards). Look on the consular website for a listing of English-speaking doctors. Bring a first aid kit, but know that Moroccan pharmacies will have everything you need.

Good luck!

Amanda

Religious people like sex too. God talks about sex in the Quran, and the Sunnah of the Prophet has never been shy about it. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

Prude patrol, please continue haranging. Your need for drama is never ending.

Riiiigggghtt. It couldn't possibly be that the hypocrisy of some is being pointedly revealed? The Prophet might have something to say about married muslimas who blast their bedroom business on a public forum. Or maybe he was more of a Totally Rad Open Guy About Sex than I thought. If its Prudes vs. Proud Vibrator Owners Who are Married but Will Joke About Vibrators on an Open Forum with Men Who Aren't Their Husbands, I'll be on the Prude Team.

I love to read anything you write. I can't find a smiley that nods its head strongly enough.

You find me a woman who had an abortion and had zero feelings about it, no matter her philosophical stance on the topic, and I'll give you a million bucks.

I don't mean to argue here, but I have a feeling that what your saying actually shows more of why the subjects DO compare well... I think its possible its the same kind of (perceived) desperation that keep both practices going. Its easy to say both practices are disgusting but you can't so easily stop some things. I don't know anything tho...so don't let what I post bother any of you too much.

I disagree with you.

I think a woman has the right to choose whether or not she wants to have an abortion. She has to sign paperwork and pay to have it done. She has the choice. I don't think abortion is disgusting for the most part.

In honor killings a woman is murdered by her own family just like that. She has no say, the family decides to take her life.

What do you mean they involve the same kind of desperation?

I agree with you Sarah but then again I am staunchly pro-choice. Comparing the two is a way of avoiding the issue, I think - a way of diverting attention to the most well-worn and devisive of topics. Nothing changes. No amount of hiding behind cultural relativism takes away the black-and-white wrongness of so-called 'honor killings.'

That some women out there are marrying into this attitude breaks my heart.

And another thing -

Calling it "honor killing" is a load of ######. It is straight up MURDER. If my husband were into murdering people I think I would shop at a different man-store. Yet somehow this is much much worse because it involves murdering one's own blood.

What we saw more often in Morocco was families beating their daughters/sisters for "shaming" them. It might be illuminating to add that nuance to the poll - Would your hubbys beat up/give a black eye to/break the bones of a sister who was caught with a boyfriend? This was so common as to cause me physical pain every time I thought about it.

I am still horrified that any self-respecting woman could tolerate even a mate who thought that a woman had shamed him by expressing her god-given sexuality.

Oh my, I'm wondering if some of these votes so far are fakes...

I would hope so- I would hate to think anyone would marry a man who could justify the murder of his own family.

this is what I'm hoping, too, I'm a little freaked by this thread.

Frankly, I am ultra-freaked. Cultural relativism is s**t - this practice is WRONG and is the ultimate expression of woman-hating and fear of women's sexuality. How any of you can even accept this (attitude) in a potential mate is waaaaay beyond me but I guess I have less in common with people that I thought.

Accepting that is like selling your soul, IMO.

Good God.

Am I the only one here that thinks pork is succulent? Mmm.

First, I want to say thanks for keeping this thread civil. I have really learned a lot from all of your opinions.

Sarah- I know I am mgoing to open a can of worms, but thinking more about your question, I think hijab itself is an example of where relion and culture get confused.

To me there is no question that Islam talks abotu modesty, but why should I wear Arab-style hijab to look modest? (see this is where the can of worms is opened and someone who does dress this way will take offense to what I have just said abotu me and my opinion). Why is covering my hair a requirement for modesty? I completely understand why many women wear the scarf and say more power to them, but I think their interpretation is only that. The Prophet told the women to draw their clothing across their bodies not go out an dbuy new kinds of outfits. Maybe I am looking at it in a simplistic way, a prejudicial way- but Islam is meant to transcend all cultures not become tied up in the local practices.

I'm not sure if you are talking to me, but I'll still answer. I totally agree. Not only with what you've mentioned here, but my issue with hijab (chador, naqib, burqa) is, of course, that it is something for women only to be covered from head to toe. In Islam, men are to be modest as well, but their faces are not covered, hair isn't completely covered, and I am especially irked when I go to Target and see a woman in full hijab, in all black, swathed in 20 yards of fabric, her mouth covered and her husband walking beside her in jeans & a polo. I have no idea how these choices were made in their household, but it never fails that I have to hold my tongue and not walk over and interview them, because I am seriously curious about it. And it's not just a women's freedom thing to me. I also consider men to be humans with brains, so I find it very demeaning to men to assert that women must be covered in this way, or even just their hair, to not intrigue men. But then someone will argue, well, I cover so only my husband can see my feminine bits....but hair? Again, it's saying that hair is so sexy it cannot be revealed to others. Again, why is a woman's hair different than a man's in a religion that obliges both sexes to be modest?

This answer is for me. I am not speaking on the way anybody else believes on this matter...just myself. ok, now that I have cleared the path...I'll begin.

For myself, I think it is great to cover the hair via hijab and I'll tell you why. We spend so much time trying to fix our hair to look just right so we can feel beautiful ... and for what? So other men can look at us and think we're beautiful? .. For me, that is wrong. I don't want any man to see me and think about me in that way other than my husband. As far as the other "allowed" men .. they are family and are not going to see me in a sexual way so that is not an issue. Hijab is a way of protecting a womans right to just be herself without having to look a certain way or maintain the current style. She can just be herself and spend her time thinking about other things rather than her appearance. NOW... about men having to cover... I believe (again, just me and not saying anybody else feels the same way) men look at each part of a woman in a sexual way .. from hair to shoulders to hips to toes. Women see men in a sexy way as well but not with as much intensity as men see women. (there are always exceptions to each rule...so yeah there are women who see a bicep of a man and about pass out from lust) .... anyway.... men look at things like hair , body type, etc to base their decision on wether they think the woman is attractive or not. If the woman wears hijab, doesn't the man have to get to know the woman on the inside rather than the outside? I think the answer to that is yes and I like the idea of them getting to know me for me and not for my beauty. (again, just my own opinion)

This sounds *verbatim* like what Moroccan men told me all the time about hijab (not all men, just the few that wanted to convince me to wear it, derr!). Was this your opinion before your marriage as well?

I think this is a very narrow way to look at relations between men and women, too Animal Kingdom for me. Women don't always fix their hair for men's benefit -- we do it for ourselves, our self-confidence, our style, to be professional, etc...

A man that is looking at my toes sexually is a couple notches down the IQ totem pole, IMO.

I have read the Quran 4 times complete during the Ramadan months. (one year, I didn't finish) At the beginning of Ramadan I make a list of all the suras and cross it off when I complete it. Sometimes I skip around and sometimes I go front to back. Of course I read passages from the Quran all thru the year, but to answer your question, yes I have read it. The sura Yassen is one of my favorites. Mohammeds favorite is the sura Youseff.

What qualifies me to say I am muslim? In May 2002, I said shahada and I believe from that day forward, I am muslim, alhamdulillah. I live my life to please Allah and I practice the 5 pillars of Islam, which are the saying of shahada, the giving of charity, the belief in angels, the preparation for Hajj and daily prayers.

Jackie

Isn't fasting the month of Ramadan a pillar instead of belief in angels?

Can anyone give specific examples of how in a Muslim community religion and culture are not seperate?

How about this for example- the concept in Iran of purdah- sheltering women inside from the view of strangers- existed in Iran long before the coing of Islam to the region. persians merely kept the concept and explained it through Islam. Today it is seem as an Islamic idea.

Or this- female circumcision in North Africa

The same is true of harem=women's quarters which of course comes from haram=frobidden, but generally is the part of the house forbidden to men, but has also, in more recent centuries become seclusion of women, and of course the 18th & 19th century Orientalist paintings and writings have since distorted the word to mean a man with several concumbines.

Dreams of Trespass goes into Fatima Mernissi's childhood household and until the French left Morocco, her family maintained a separated home. You still see it now (not just in Morocco) with gender separation in homes, parties, schools, etc which has certainly become a huge part of Islam, culturally, and in practice.

_Scheherezade Goes West_ by Mernissi also discusses this 'haram' idea in Orientalist art and literature.

Female circumcision is a good example of the culture/religion confusion -- most people in the US seem to think (mistakenly) that this is a Islamic practice.

Some anthropologists have a theory that because Semetic people lived in arid, desert areas and moved around a lot in caravans. it wasn't easy to keep pigs because, unlike sheep and goats, they don't herd well. And, their cloven hooves don't allow them to travese the desert without a great deal of difficulty. So, to facilitate the nomadic lifestyle of the majority of the population in those times, pigs were discouraged as a food resource.

This is what I have read as well. It does make sense.

I live in a pig farming area -- pork is a way of life here. It has been an eye opener for my husband to see how much people depend on pork for their living and how pervasive it is here.

In anthropology there is something called the "latent vs. manifest" function - that is, there is always a manifest reason (what is known and culturally accepted and practiced, i.e. pork is forbidden) and a latent function (what results from the practice or what might be accomplished culturally or macroevoluntionarily - i.e. pork does not make sense for a desert people). I am sure it is not that simple, but it seems to start to explain the wildly varying food codes and taboos that exist around the world. There is a book out there by Marvin Harris, wish I could remember the name.