confusedlassie

ConfusedLassie, I understand your frustration.

I would probably try applying again, either for the B category tourist visa, or at least for a C1 transit visa to transfer flights in the US.

In the end, it doesn't matter who's stricter, the UK or the US for that matter.

What matters is you got an unexpected change of plans to your honeymoon, and you need to plan out what to do fix it. At this point, it's sort of a gamble. As you say, you could either try to find a flight with no connection to the US, or you could try again. I won't make any assumptions or judgments about anyone, but if you and your fiance honestly believe you did not get a fair treatment, I would try again. Based on the information you provide here, it sounds like he should be able to prove sufficient ties to the UK. I don't know what the CO based his/her decision on, but body language could definitely have played a part.

Your fiance has the disadvantage of being a foreign resident in a third country. He's got a tougher burden of proof than many. Being rushed, nervous etc, is often a dead giveaway to COs that something is not right.

If you can afford the $140, try again. Plan the return trip to back Scotland accordingly with plenty of time. Make sure he somehow incorporates the evidence in his answers.

Again, there are no guarantees here, and the burden of proof may be higher now that he has already been denied once. but if he, and you believe there should not be any issues at all, it's worth a try.

Thanks, that was a very useful reply.

I am not saying the fees are fair or not – all I am pointing to is the mere fact that most of the embassy around the world work in the similar fashion.

They charge the applicant irrespective of visa being granted or not.

It did not matter to me if UK official met me or not, I was traveling to UK for Crown Office actually to Scotland itself for the official work purpose.

Also I did not mean to say you would be asking for asylum or anything but what I was saying is most CO’s do put all that together in assessing any case. They go with the worst case scenario and assume every applicant has immigrant intent and would jump their VISA term and would overstay in US.

Now atleast at this point you have 2 options either try again never know you might be approved – (My very first tourist visa was denied, I applied 3-4 weeks later same set of document and I was approved)

Or

Wait until your fiancée has British passport and he can travel under VWP.

True. And true.

Most embassies around the world work in a similar fashion, I'm sure. But it is still annoying and frustrating. If I was you I'd be really angry to have been refused a tourist visa at a loss of £520 and then have it approved a few weeks later with the same documents. To me that would suggest that the UK embassy was not carrying out their duties in a consistent manner.

The annoying thing is that these places have the power so one really has no recourse to complain or appeal if they feel they've been unfairly treated. Which I think you were the first time you applied if they approved you the second time!

Anyway, the only way my fiance will apply again is if we can't change our flights with the airline. It's just too much hassle and expense to go all the way down to London again when there is no guarantee it'll be successful. We're not that desperate to visit.

My guess, for what it's worth (likely nothing!) is that whatever 'vibes' he gave off (for whatever the reasons) did not instill confidence in the VO...but let's take another look at his situation from the VO's perspective....while he is (apparently) residing in the UK with some sort of spousal/partner permit or visa, the fact remains that he is not yet married to you....you mentioned a free education, but likely at something similar to our community colleges, not an Ivy league institution (nor Oxford or Cambridge), and what about his employment, if any? Part time? Waiting tables, tending bar or driving a delivery truck (lorry)? Any of those common after school jobs one could easily walk away from.

So in spite of some money in a bank account, whether deposited locally or afar, what solid foundation might he have for returning, given the presumption of immigrant intent? Not easy to say....but whatever he has he did not convince the VO it was sufficient.

Yes, you are quite right. That is all true. From the VOs point of view he could look at my fiance and see all the things that you described above. Especially if he was getting 'bad vibes'. I'm quite sure that's what happened. I'm not unreasonable, I can see that. He could get the US

But from our point of view, when none of the above is true and the judgement that has been made is false, it is still frustrating. Surely you can appreciate that? Nobody likes to be judged as a potential illegal immigrant! Even actual potential illegal immigrants would find that upsetting I imagine!

Just for the record though, University is free in Scotland to residents of Scotland and other EU countries. Only international students and those from the rest of the UK pay fees. And it's not just community colleges - it's the top universities like St Andrews and Edinburgh University as well. Although it's totally besides the point, I thought I'd clear that up.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jan/13/european-student-numbers-soar-scotland

I find your homogenized version equally offensive....were you at the interview? No. So how do YOU really know what questions were asked? You have only one other person's version upon which to base your opinion.

Round trip airline tickets are not a tie to one's country nor absolute proof that an individual will comply with the terms of a tourist visa...and money in a bank account can be emptied five minutes after visa approval.

Neither one of us knows with a certainty how the interview went...you have one edited version; I have my own thoughts based on several summers behind the lines in a couple of different consulates...observing first hand visa interviews...I never saw an interview ended after two silly questions about why and where somebody wanted to travel. I did observe countless hundreds in which the applicant was evasive or combative (or both) and far more often than not that particular approach did not lead to visa issuance.

As for the $140 and the 'two question' interview...that is laughable. You are just annoyed that your fiancee did not manage to convince the VO of his bona fides...but you don't really know why this happened. You may also be annoyed because the mere fact of your existence on this planet was not enough for your fiancee to obtain a visa....happens all the time. Your experience in these matters rests on one and only one interview that you were not even a part of.

What matters during these interviews is the judgment of the VO, not yours (nor mine). It is the responsibility of every applicant to convince a VO that they do not intend to remain in the US...and for whatever the reason(s), your fiancee was not able to do this...but I don't believe for a nanosecond that he was asked two essentially meaningless questions and then summarily refused. That is the constant refrain from those who try to shift blame for the negative outcome on an anonymous third party. Sure.

No Noah, I was not at the interview. Yes, I only have the other person's versions of events. However, that 'other person' happens to be someone I know deeply, and trust and who has no reason or history of lying to me! Also, I have never in my life seen him being evasive and combative - he is not capable of it. Naive, flustered, confused - perhaps. Plus, I don't see why my fiance wouldn't have told me if the interviewer did ask more questions? For example - if he had asked 'what are your ties to the UK' - he would just have answered this honestly. If he had still been denied a visa after being asked these questions it would have ENHANCED the incredulity of the story.

You, on the other hand, are basing your thoughts based on someone you don't know (my fiance) versus someone else you don't know (the interviewer). But have made a baseless judgement of based on your own past experience of 'evasive and combative' applicants that you have come across in the past. Seriously? You think that is fair?

Luckily I don't care much for your opinion.

IMHO, something went off the rails during the interview...pure and simple (after more than two questions). If you had said that in the first place (minus the insistence that my fiance is lying about the questions he was asked) then I would have agreed with you. Quite plainly something did go off the rails during the interview. Personally I think it was probably the fact that he was displaying anxious behaviour due to being about to miss his train back to Scotland. Possibly that coupled with the fact that he has a lot of stamps in his passport as we travel a lot, and he has long hair etc so doesn't exactly look professional.

You are right that: What matters during these interviews is the judgment of the VO, not yours (nor mine). It is the responsibility of every applicant to convince a VO that they do not intend to remain in the US...and for whatever the reason(s), your fiancee was not able to do this... That is obviously true. But how dare you come on here and accuse him of lying to me and me of being gullible!

I am perfectly entitled to be a little upset that we are having to change our honeymoon plans based on a judgement that the interviewer has made - I am sure in good faith on his part - but that is incorrect. If you actually look back to my original post, I was actually asking if anyone knew how easy it is to get a transit visa.

Oh - my fiance just got back from work and I've ran your comments past him. The one person who was at the interview. In his words:

"I just came back home from work and realised that my fiancee is wasting her time talking to you, trying to show you our side. And it doesn't matter. I know what happened there. I don't care about your opinion. They literally didn't ask me too much - nothing about my connections here in the UK, which was apparently the reason the visa was refused. I've been to embassies in the past (UK, Australia etc) and usually you have a conversation - even if it's just 5 minutes - where they ask you things from different angles to get some details for what you're saying. Everything I say could be a lie - usually they ask a lot of questions to make sure they get the truth. For example if you say you are getting married they usually ask 'when are you getting married', 'how did you meet' etc. At the US embassy yesterday it didn't seem like they wanted to know the truth. It seemed like they made a quick judgement. I don't even understand why I'm trying to explain to somebody as narrow minded as you about my case - but you weren't there and you're calling me a liar. And you're not a good representation of your name - you are not 'comfortable' at all."

OK so I will

tell you from my own experience with UK embassy.

The CO in UK embassy does not even come and meet the applicant, they just collect the document and that’s it.

They look at the documents that are submitted and they send you your passport back with either stamped visa or rejection letter and yet they also charge the fee.

Currently UK embassy is charge 520 pounds for the 10 yr tourist visa. US is charging $140-180 for same.

Then I should be able to say UK embassy are more notorious coz they charge 520 pound don’t even talk to me in person and don’t even give the answer on the spot. How is that fair?

Also please don’t assume that someone coming from UK or Europe would not commit visa fraud that happens all the time.

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with the UK embassy and I agree that £520 is ridiculously expensive. I don't think it's fair that you don't even get spoken to in person. I'm not on here as a representative of the UK embassy or saying that it is fair and America is not. I was just simply annoyed at the fact that my fiance was denied a simple tourist visa and upset that an incorrect judgement was made on him. And that we have to change our honeymoon plans.

If I saw a post from you saying that you had been charged £520 for a visa by the UK embassy and no-one had even spoken to you about it, and you felt an incorrect judgement was made on you then I would actually have sympathised with you. I do sympathise with you. That is blind robbery!

You are right, the new DS -160 is huge it is asking for lot more information than they used to ask.

Onetime DS-160 was like 2 pages now it’s more 8-12 pages they do ask lot more information. Also most ppl don’t realize all the CO’s are trained to read body language of applicants and they do put that in to the final decision.

What I hate is most ppl think CO’s did not give them enough time and they can prove their case and they were not going to do anything wrong, but same time you also see tons of cases where ppl do have sudden change in their thoughts once they land in US, suddenly their home country becomes hostile and not they need asylum etc.. .

As any professional CO’s do this day in and day out they are trained to look at things most us would miss. CO’s have seen all the excuse and stories ppl can think of.

I think what you say about 'body language' is probably right. In retrospect, in discussion with my fiance, we think this must have been where he fell down. His appointment was meant to be at 11am - he'd taken the night train down to London from Scotland and was due to get the 3.30pm train back. Of course you have to leave all your electronic devices outside of the embassy, so he no way of knowing what time it was once inside. As it happened he got kept waiting for hours, so by the time he did get called to the window he was very anxious about missing his train. I'm sure this came across.

There really was nothing in his DS-160 form that would cause concern and, as I explained in a post further up the page, he already went through VERY thorough immigration checks with the UK authorities in order to get his current UK resident permit, so it's not like there is anything dodgy lurking under his surface! He's just a normal, smily, friendly guy (with an american accent funnily enough) who wanted a simple tourist visa to go on honeymoon for a couple of weeks!

But I understand what you are saying - I'm sure plenty of people do change their thoughts once they land in the US - but I'm not sure how many of them have jobs, own their own home, have a good life etc in the UK. And I can't really see the UK becoming hostile towards us and requiring him to seek asylum during a two week honeymoon in August.

They can't do very much before the interview - all they have in most cases is the DS-160. If you just go by the DS-160, most people would meet the basic criteria. However I would agree, it often takes only one factor or one question to be able to ascertain that someone will not be eligible for a tourist visa.

If it was me, if they determined right away that I wasn't eligible, I would rather they just end the interview. They don't need to ask 10 more courtesy questions if they already know they can't approve me. They are busy enough anyway.

I think what also can happen is the decision is often not explained well, or at least not understood well, and the applicant comes away with the impression that they were not given a fair opportunity. They don't understand that once the decision has been made, 25 pages of additional evidence won't help.

Dakine - I think you are right. I think they probably can make their decision about whether they think someone is eligible quite quickly based on one factor from one question. Plainly that is what has happened to my fiance.

In retrospect perhaps the fact that he was displaying anxious behaviour (he had been kept waiting for 4 hours and had a train booked from London-Scotland that he was close to missing), and the fact that he has a lot of stamps in his passport (we like to travel!) was enough for the interviewer to assume that he does not have strong ties in the UK.

As you say, most people probably meet the basic criteria through the DS-160 form - including my fiance. And they only asked him very limited questions about where he was intending to visit and why. So they must have made the judgement based on something that they found in amongst that information that they didn't like.

We are just not used to that kind of 'gut feeling' judgement being made on visa decisions from our past experience. But it is every country's right to make decisions about who they let in in their own way I guess.

It is just annoying - and actually he feels quite offended - to have someone make a judgement like that on you (that you are a potential illegal immigrant) when you know it is not true and that, in fact, it's quite laughable because you have a good life and so many commitments in the country you already live in.

Ah well - it turns out we're not actually that bothered so we couldn't have been that desperate to go to the USA. Plus this time next year he'll have a UK passport and not need a visa anyway, so it will be easier if we ever decide to try visiting New York again.

Noah – you are right.

What I was referring to filtering was don’t the UK consulate screen the applicant who wants to come visit, work, live in UK?

At that time does OP cry and make an issue that UK consulate are not issuing UK visa to other ppl who want to come visit UK.

What I was pointing to was how ppls attitude change when it comes to them.

Yes Harsh, you are correct, the UK also screens applicants who want to come to visit, work and live in the UK. As they should. As America also should. I have no problem with that. That is not what I am 'crying' about as you put it. Of course I don't think the USA or UK, or any other country for that matter, should be obliged to simply allow whoever wants to come to their country to come without any sort of checks.

However usually you would expect a refusal decision to be based on something solid.

I have no doubt that the official who dealt with my fiance thinks there is a reason why he should not be given a tourist visa. Well, we know what that is - he thought that my fiance did not have strong enough ties outside of the USA and that he would be at risk of disappearing into the USA as an illegal immigrant! But that is just LAUGHABLE based on the FACT that he has plenty of money, a home, mortgage, car, job etc etc in the UK. Those are indisputable, provable facts. Whatever you say we know that the VO made the decision he did without knowing those facts - as they were not presented to him or requested by him.

Why on earth - seriously - would someone who is from a rich country, living in a rich country, who has a home, mortgage, possessions, car, job, free healthcare, free university education (in scotland), the right to live and work anywhere in Europe etc want to give all that up to become an illegal immigrant in the USA!?!! It's ridiculous! Have you seen the movie 'Sicko'??

At the end of the day I know that we do not have any *right* to visit the USA. It is the country's prerogative to deny us entry. Luckily we are not that bothered as we only chose America for part of our honeymoon as it's monsoon season everywhere we really wanted to go. So it's not really a huge loss to us.

But I do think it's scandalous for an Embassy to charge people a $140 fee to apply for a visa and then not even take the time to ask them the relevant questions.

What I meant about 'filtering' was the version given to the OP by her fiancee....to remove the stigma of having been denied and attempt to foster blame upon the VO..and yet some people buy this. Who really knows how he answered some of the questions...perhaps he was evasive or argumentative...but of course did not report this back to his fiancee...whatever took place was not based on one question or a myopic focus on where he was going...a third country national seeking a visa outside his/her own country would be asked several questions about what ties they might possess in the third country...because as I pointed out earlier, his passport would have some sort of visa in it, which would have been seen by the VO...and seeing a third country national's passport in the UK would automatically generate questions...and not merely about one's destination.

Noah - you seem to profess to know a lot about my fiance's personality - i.e. that he would lie to me and is the type of person who may be 'evasive or argumentative'. And also about my personality - i.e. that I am gullible and would simply 'buy' a story that I've been fed by my *apparently* insincere fiance. You also seem to know a lot about how residence permits work in the UK - i.e. 'his passport would have some sort of visa in it'.

Wrong on all counts. I won't even dignify your assumptions on our personalities with an answer. To be honest I find your posts quite offensive. But my fiance does not merely have a visa in his passport - he has an actual residence permit for the UK, which is a completely separate document which, by the way, is not an easy thing to obtain. Similar to the USA 'green card'. My fiance is an Israeli, jewish, citizen and we had to jump through a huge amount of hoops for him to obtain his current UK residence permit (proving finances, collecting two years worth of bills addressed to both of us, numerous character witnesses etc). Which we did successfully with no problems at all with UK immigration - who are strict but at least ask the correct questions to allow one to prove oneself and show the required evidence.

I completely agree that the VO would not have made his decision to refuse my fiance's visa based on the one question that he asked my fiance (which could be interpreted as two questions as he also asked the purpose of the visit as well as where he was going to go). Of course not! They have based their decision on a judgement that they have made on him prior to asking that question. Perhaps they didn't like the way he looked? Perhaps he gave off nervous body language (he had been kept waiting for 4 hours and was rushing to catch his train back to Scotland). Maybe the guy even had some sort of bias against the country of my fiance's birth? Or he was just having a bad day or is a high on power? Who knows.

I also agree that '...a third country national seeking a visa outside his/her own country would be asked several questions about what ties they might possess in the third country...' ... well that would be common sense, wouldn't it?! You would think that the interviewer WOULD ask several question like this. But yet they did not! And that is EXACTLY what I am annoyed about and the point of my post!!!!!

I know it seems incredulous - but there you have it!

If they HAD asked my fiance could have shown them the evidence that he had with him in his bag: a flight ticket from New York to London, bank statements proving that he has £25k savings in Israel and £8k savings in the UK (i.e. $52k), our payslips, mortgage agreement, car insurance, buildings insurance. He had nothing to be 'evasive and argumentative' about. And no reason to lie to me about to 'remove the stigma'!! Oh my word Noah, you have made such a snap judgement on us, it really reflects badly on you!

Of course he now feels stupid that he didn't just hand these documents over to the interviewer - but he was not asked to submit them. I completed the application form with him and we went over and over the documents that he was required to submit - the application form, his passport, residence permit, proof he'd paid the fee etc. He only took the other stuff *in case* they did ask further questions and we only even thought of doing that because we are used to dealing with UK immigration and know they types of things they like to see. We had no reason to believe that it would be difficult to get a tourist visa - we've travelled to to Australia, New Zealand, India etc and it's usually just a formality. My fiance just answered the question they asked about where he was intending to visit, the guy flicked through his passport. He was asked to sit back down - naively believing they didn't need any further information - and the next thing he knows he's handed a letter saying he doesn't qualify for a visa due to 214B, but he can re-apply if he likes!

I'm sure if he was to reapply and be sure to hand all the supporting information at the very beginning then he'd get the visa at the next attempt. But it's an expense and a hassle to go back to London again. Or perhaps he could apply directly from Tel Aviv when he's visiting his family in April. But to be honest this has completely put us off visiting America. Why would someone who is from a rich country, living in a rich country, who has a home, mortgage, car, free healthcare, free university education etc. Why would they even WANT to become an illegal immigrant in America? It's laughable!

I have no problem with the USA being strict on immigration. I have no problem with tourist visas being denied to people who cannot prove that they have strong ties in their home country. But what I do have a problem with is someone paying $140 for a service and not even being asked what - as you yourself point out, Noah - are obvious questions such as 'what are your ties to the country you live in'!

But no matter - we'll find somewhere else to go on honeymoon!

My fiance had an interview at the US consulate in London today and was refused a tourist visa due to 214b - not having sufficient ties outside of the USA. We have no idea how the interviewer arrived at this decision as my fiance was asked NO questions about his current status in the UK or what his commitments here are.

We were planning to travel to the US as husband and wife in August, on our honeymoon. We have been living together in the UK since 2008 -I am a British national and he is Israeli, currently on a UK 'spouse/partner visa', which is due to become permanent residency in early 2013. We have a home, mortgage, car, jobs etc etc in the UK. Oh - and a flight back to the UK already booked from New York! My fiance could have proven all of this to the interviewer, but was not asked any questions except where he intended to visit in the USA.

How on earth the interviewer came to the decision that he does not have strong ties here I don't know?

He can re-apply for the visa but already spent a lot of money paying for the first application PLUS the travel from Scotland to attend the interview in London! Is there any point in re-applying if the application is not even going to be thoroughly considered?

Unfortunately we have already booked flights from London to Cancun, returning from New York to London. We got a good ticket price and thought it was worth the risk. We were going to book a flight from Cancun to the USA once he got the visa. Obviously we are now going to try and change the return portion of the trip to leave from somewhere outside the US. But if we cannot do this does anybody know how easy it is to get a 'transit' visa for the USA?

Arrrgghhhh. Who would have thought it'd be so difficult to go on honeymoon to America!!!