Senator Schumer: Government-run health insurance won't drive private insurers out of business

[Peikko 1,575]

The problem is having an above suspicion control of the distribution. I don't see how that can be achieved without some kind of control in place and where there is control there is corruption. Mind you, it's not like there is not corruption now, clearly there is, and a lot of it

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

As long as it's not excessive, I see corruption as an acceptable by-product of human activity.

[Peikko 1,575]

How do you define 'excessive'? How do we control it to an acceptable level? Currently, I do not think there is a fair distribution of corruption

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

How do you define 'excessive'? How do we control it to an acceptable level? Currently, I do not think there is a fair distribution of corruption

There's a level of corruption endemic to most human enterprise - corporations, government, what have you. As long as it doesn't drive prices up to the point where stakeholders begin to notice and be alarmed, it's typically tolerated.

[Peikko 1,575]

Yes, it's tolerated in some circumstances but not others. If you happen to be poor and corrupt then you certainly will not get a free pass, worse, it taints everyone who is poor, not just those who are poor and corrupt to the point that people genuinely believe that most poor people are constantly on the make and out to 'redistribute the wealth' or 'welfare queens' and all those other catchy phrases which leads to poverty remaining a problem in a country like the US where it should not even exist at all.

[Heracles 417]

Here are some of the solutions I can think of:

We need workable and viable solutions.

1. No-brainer solution is similar to one proposed by McCain. We should be able to choose our providers rather than have the employer choose it for us. This way we can seek the best coverage for the lowest cost / quality of service / best coverage.

2. There needs to be mandatory coverage and no discrimination against pre-existing conditions. Everyone who applies must be covered and not discriminated against with higher premiums. Of course if you want better service you will need to pay for it.

3. It needs to be illegal for anyone to abuse the system, from doctors to hospitals, to even patients. For example: Charging someone $100 to use a tissue box during a stay in the hospital and then disguising as some sort of medical necessity, when billing the insurance company, should be illegal. A nice heft fine per offense would nip that in the but. As with excessive charging by doctors or even abuse of service by patients.

4. State governments[ s]need to[/s] must build their own public hospitals to compete with private hospitals. This will promote competition. At the end of the day let the free market work and let the best provider of basic service win. If the governments can run hospitals more efficiently and provider better service, then so be it. Bye Bye for the inefficient private ones.

5. We need state or even federal level policies to cover the uninsured. This way the state uses their huge buying power to negotiate the cheapest rate for the uninsured. Even have a few providers to ensure they compete with one another.

6. Ensure only citizens and legal residents have access to the system. Even the wealthiest country in the world, with a bottomless pit of diamonds and gold cannot afford to pay for 20,000,000 illegal immigrants.

7. Reopen the borders and allow companies to import cheaper pharmaceuticals from overseas. We get stitched big time when it comes to the cost of medication here. The present laws prevent Americans from buying cheaper drugs from abroad.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

To facilitate that you'd need a lot of oversight at the point of service level. It's not realistic tbh - to determine whether an abuse has taken place without a lengthy list of guidelines and rules about what constitutes "abuse" and how to facilitate investigation and assign punishment. Even the UK NHS with its bureaucracy didn't do that - hence there was inordinate focus on "waiting list" statistics to determine performance.

McCain's plan was badly flawed - because while he talked about the need to lower costs, what he proposed (giving people a tax credit to choose insurance plans) did nothing of the kind, and stripped people of the cost protections provided by an insurance "pool" such as you currently get from an employer - leaving the general public essentially twisting in the wind.

While it might be good in theory to choose your own plan, it doesn't change the fact that the insurance system is a nightmare to navigate in terms of what conditions are covered and to what degree. If you were perfectly healthy when you bought a plan but got diagnosed with a stomach ulcer or diverticulitis - it would be pretty shitty to discover that your unforseen (and unforseeable) illness wasn't covered by your insurance plan. Unless you have a chronic condition that you know you need coverage for when deciding on a plan - but then again people like that find themselves priced out the system as it is!

You can't win really - and as it stands the freedom to choose your own health insurance plan amounts isn't too different to taking a spin on a roulette wheel.

Incidentally - McCain also didn't address the question of pre-existing conditions.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Private Pike

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

... stripped people of the cost protections provided by an insurance "pool" such as you currently get from an employer - leaving the general public essentially twisting in the wind.

Exactly. The pool is crucial.

[Heracles 417]

Yes, it's tolerated in some circumstances but not others. If you happen to be poor and corrupt then you certainly will not get a free pass, worse, it taints everyone who is poor, not just those who are poor and corrupt to the point that people genuinely believe that most poor people are constantly on the make and out to 'redistribute the wealth' or 'welfare queens' and all those other catchy phrases which leads to poverty remaining a problem in a country like the US where it should not even exist at all.

Cleo come on. That is a huge problem in both the UK and Australia. I do like the term welfare queens though.

My favorite was watching a current affair program in the evening, which was interviewing a girl in her 20's with 4 kids. She had the nerve to complain that the government does not give her enough money (welfare). She has never held a job in her life. They also found out that she received close to $2K a month in welfare payments. Please don't give me these are isolated case rubbish, they are not.

Heck, even in the US I see it. Go to a wealthy area and you will generally see couples with one or two kids. Go to some poor area and I guarantee it that you will see a lot of people with 3 to 5 kids. And that's without a pinch of the welfare benefits Brits and Aussies receive. Can you imagine they had access to that level of welfare? Forgetaboutit. The movie Idiocracy would truly play out, to the tee.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

... stripped people of the cost protections provided by an insurance "pool" such as you currently get from an employer - leaving the general public essentially twisting in the wind.

Exactly. The pool is crucial.

It is. But the point here is only that McCain's plan was worse than the current system..

[Heracles 417]

McCains plan was far from ideal but it had a number of great ideas. Allowing Americans to choose their health care provider is the easiest and best initial step.

At the same time people need to realize that there absolutely has to be an increase in tax, such as the 1.5% medicare tax in AUS, to cover everyone. Then you also have the problem that America simply has too many people living in poverty to cover. A demographic which won't be able to contribute any tax, though, will make a lot of use of the system. How do you pay and cover all of these people? Who will pay for the millions of illegal immigrants who will use the system but contribute little to nothing? Keep in mind the poor are a minority rather than a majority in the UK, Canada and Australia. Which is why our systems works there. Try adding an additional 20 million dirt poor to any of the systems and then come tell me how good they work. The systems would collapse.

You really have to ask yourself why are these things not an issue overseas? Why is it everyone else has their sh-t together? From immigration, to crime, to health care. I just think the whole system is screwed up. It's fundamentally flawed. Between your ACLU's, state rights, lobbyist and so forth, how do you get anything done here. Obviously you don't. Which is why the country is the way it is. Even Obama said he realized just how hard it is to change anything in Washington here.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

McCain's choice idea sounded great - but was pretty crappy when you looked at what he was actually proposing.

All it amounted to was the scrapping of the employer tax breaks for providing healthcare to their employees and replacing this with a $5K tax break for families to use to buy their own health insurance directly.

He also mentioned some sort of "Guaranteed Access Plan" for people unable to afford their own insurance. That second part was never really defined.

Nor was it really defined how any of this would reduce costs and out of pocket health expenses.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Private Pike

[Heracles 417]

McCain's choice idea sounded great - but was pretty crappy when you looked at what he was actually proposing.

All it amounted to was the scrapping of the employer tax breaks for providing healthcare to their employees and replacing this with a $5K tax break for families to use to buy their own health insurance directly.

He also mentioned some sort of "Guaranteed Access Plan" for people unable to afford their own insurance. That second part was never really defined.

Come to think of it, I only liked his freedom to choose yourself idea.

Whenever I hear tax breaks mentioned by republicans I actually get mad.