kristen_maroc

I understand the "why do we talk about fraud so much/assume?" dilemma, and it's something that I struggle with. I hate perpetuating stereotypes. I hate putting people into boxes. I actually work against this in my professional career, and think about it very often.
It's something I struggle with in my job and academic life as well: while acknowledging diversity within cultures, it is also helpful to acknowledge culture norms. I feel confident arguing that the more someone understands about the culture differences and implications of collectivist vs. individualist societies is helpful to be able to understand cross-cultural situations. Someone who understands collectivism and comes from an individualist culture will more likely have an easier time adapting to an collectivist society than someone ignorant of the potential implications.
I see this as the same thing. Is there diversity among culture, among MENA men, among Moroccan men, among regions in Morocco, among Arab culture and Berber culture, among socio-economic level, etc? Absolutely. One thing I loved about my time in Morocco was the rich diversity of behaviors, attitudes, and interactions within a country that is 99% one religion.
But to ignore the fact (and, yes, I will go as far as to call it a fact!) that there is a large group of people in Morocco who have accepted the behaviors that are tantamount to visa fraud is ignorant. It doesn't mean that we should or have the right to paint everyone with the same brush-- that would also be ignorant and unfair. BUT it means that we need to go into situations with our eyes open, acknowledging that this does happen to a certain percentage of people, and operate with caution. I think it's safe to say that in Morocco (I won't talk about other MENA places), it's certainly worth acknowledging that this is a sub-cultural norm that applies to a large enough group of people that it warrants discussion and acknowledgement. Not all, not most, but there is a culture around it with a large enough portion of the population to make it relevant.
Do I think most MENA marriages that fail do this because of fraud? Absolutely not. That's what I was trying to get at at the end of my last post-- love in and of itself is not enough for most marriages, let alone cross-cultural, interfaith marriages involving immigration. 50% of marriages in the US result in divorce. There are "fraud" equivalents in every culture.
But most Americans know about motivations for "fraud" equivalents in our own culture. Why do people get married, and when is it bad or a wrong motivation? Gold-diggers? Physical attraction? Stability? To fill a mental-health related void in their own life? To have kids? To find companionship? To meet the expectations society sets out for someone their age?
I hesitate to put value judgments on any of the above reasons. When is right and when is wrong? It's up to the couple to figure that out... but these are at least talked about enough that most people have the opportunity to be aware of this when they make their decisions.
But would most Americans know intuitively about the extent of the sub-culture norm among some Moroccan men that target American women online and exploit the "red flags?" No, probably not to the extent that it happens.
It's a tricky and hard conversation... one that ruffles feathers... but I'll risk ruffling feathers as long as it is clear that I am not painting all Moroccans/MENA/Arab/Berber/Muslim men with the same brush, but merely raising awareness of the potentially accepted behavior of a segment of the population.

I'll re-write some of what I said. As you see in the link that sandinista! posted earlier, I thought about starting a FAQ "landing page" for the MENA forum a few years back because, yes. This place can be harsh. Yes-- this place can be unsupportive. But, ultimately, the people who might come across on the tougher side of "tough love" rather than the loving side are more often than not completely on-point with their statements and criticisms. It's hard to hear, and it's frustrating that there is so much drama somewhere that most of us come for support, but usually the content of the negativity is pretty justifiable.
Why? Let's look at the facts. Morocco and the MENA region are high-fraud countries. I'm sure most people who have been here for awhile have stories. When my husband first came to the US, he went out to lunch with my mother at a Mediterranean deli and the two Moroccans behind the counter gently ribbed him in Darija about his "wife." It is so prevalent that men prey on older women for visas that they assumed he had done the same thing and was married to my mother (who is 29 years older).
The Consulate made a video that mentioned fraud as well. Check out this YouTube video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sjE4nuhSDw (whoops-- not this video-- maybe there is a part 2 somewhere; not sure what happened to it, but it was from the same meeting!!).
You can hear and read stories here, on other websites, etc. But-- after living in Morocco for 5 years, and after getting to know Morocco and Moroccans at that level (and I still have a lot to learn-- it's not a statement of arrogance!)-- this IS A CULTURAL PHENOMENON. It is not something that every Moroccan does. It's not every single relationship, but it happens, and it is more common than most people want to admit.
(As an aside, I've had many conversations with young Moroccan men who think that the women deserve it-- that in some ways, they are doing "sex tourism" or "mail order husbands" because older, unattractive, divorced women with kids cannot actually believe that someone so much younger and more attractive would actually fall in love with them. Of course, I find that attitude abhorrent... but it also exists!).
These fraudsters make everyone's situation harder.
- It makes legitimate relationships (note-- most of these fraudulent relationships feel 100% legitimate to the USC petitioners!!) harder to go through their paperwork/visas/green cards. In other words, when consular officers see so many instances of fraud, it becomes harder to prove legitimacy.
- It hurts people who really think they are in love/in a relationship
- It hurts the way that Americans/"the West" look at Morocco/MENA/Islam
The people to get angry at in this visa journey is not the consulate. It's not the US Government. It's not people on a message board-- it's fraudsters.
So-- then the question comes up... why do others feel like they have the right to "judge" my relationship harshly? Why do people assume my fiance/husband is only looking for a green card?
This is tricky. On the one hand, it's true: we don't "know." Nobody has a window into someone's intentions. But consider the following:
- Back when I was applying for a K1, I read somewhere that 60-70% of K1 applications are denied because of fraud.
- Looking back here, there are very, very, very few people in long-term marriages (say, beyond 5-6 years), particularly when you look at red-flag situations (specifically meeting online with a huge age gap where female is older than male). It happens at times, and there are threads where people have asked "who has made it work long-term," but it is a large percentage where things don't work, and often this happens either after greencard/citizenship, or when the MENA male cheats or falls in love with someone else. Unfortunately, I have no empirical statistics... but very convincing circumstantial/anecdotal threads here and elsewhere that support these statements.
We know that the consulate (in Morocco) has published what they see as the biggest red flags (http://morocco.usembassy.gov/visas/immigrant-visas/fiance-visas.html) that indicate a likely fraudulent relationship. Though I don't have statistics or research, I am confident that this list was created based on experience, research, and facts.
This all being said... look at the situation from an "oldtimer's" perspective (which I don't consider myself, by the way). Women with many, many red flags come here to the forum, proclaiming mad, perfect, mature love with limited communication and limited understanding of each others' cultural backgrounds. The case might be "textbook" fraud... and yet, the USC doesn't think critically beyond emotions, or seem to take this into consideration.
It's a funny place to be in, when you see one of these. As a fellow human being, what would YOU say that our responsibility is? To encourage blindly following one's heart? To ask hard, probing questions (which will doubtless be asked by the consular officer eventually as well, and also by others behind your back once you are IN the States, married) that might help illustrate possible stumbling blocks? Ignoring the lessons of experience and get excited while overlooking possible pitfalls?
It's tricky. Some will work-- some will defy the odds. Many will not.
...
BUT even beyond "is it fraud," which, sure, nobody here can know despite the indicators... in some ways, the bigger question is "are you ready for this, are you honest with yourself about what this relationship would take (and is your fiance/spouse), and is this truly the right decision for us?"
I think, to me, this is my bigger concern with many people who glibly post about how perfect their relationship is, and how confident they are that they can and will make the relationship work easily-- just as long as the silly Consular Officers don't keep us apart!! Usually, when someone talks a lot about how perfect the relationship is to others, it seems like they are trying to convince themselves of the fact and if they are truly comfortable, they are confident and secure enough not to have to talk about it all the time.
The visa isn't the end result, even in a non-fraudulent relationship. The visa is just the beginning of what can and is usually a very challenging journey.
50% of US marriages end in divorce anyway. When you add in cultural, religious, linguistic, and worldview differences-- love won't get you through this. No matter how much you CARE about each other, that won't solve some of these issues. What will is realism: acknowledgement and preparations for a challenge, an insane amount of flexibility for both partners, a commitment to honest and open communication with both partners, a willingness to be humble, a willingness to listen and learn. And, in some ways, above all, a willingness and readiness to acknowledge that you might not always understand all the layers in a situation and even with communication, there will be times where you have to sacrifice even if you don't think you should have to. Even if it feels wrong or you don't understand.
In many ways, this is important for all marriages, but even moreso with a cross-cultural one. And no matter what you talk about before hand to see what you might have to compromise on? You can't cover it all. You won't be able to.
So-- as someone who loves, embraces, and has jumped onto this journey... when someone comes to the forum whining about the process? Part of me want to say, "look-- this bureaucratic nonsense is NOTHING compared to the level and type of sacrifice you must be ready for when building a life with your partner."

I'll re-write some of what I said. As you see in the link that sandinista! posted earlier, I thought about starting a FAQ "landing page" for the MENA forum a few years back because, yes. This place can be harsh. Yes-- this place can be unsupportive. But, ultimately, the people who might come across on the tougher side of "tough love" rather than the loving side are more often than not completely on-point with their statements and criticisms. It's hard to hear, and it's frustrating that there is so much drama somewhere that most of us come for support, but usually the content of the negativity is pretty justifiable.
Why? Let's look at the facts. Morocco and the MENA region are high-fraud countries. I'm sure most people who have been here for awhile have stories. When my husband first came to the US, he went out to lunch with my mother at a Mediterranean deli and the two Moroccans behind the counter gently ribbed him in Darija about his "wife." It is so prevalent that men prey on older women for visas that they assumed he had done the same thing and was married to my mother (who is 29 years older).
The Consulate made a video that mentioned fraud as well. Check out this YouTube video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sjE4nuhSDw (whoops-- not this video-- maybe there is a part 2 somewhere; not sure what happened to it, but it was from the same meeting!!).
You can hear and read stories here, on other websites, etc. But-- after living in Morocco for 5 years, and after getting to know Morocco and Moroccans at that level (and I still have a lot to learn-- it's not a statement of arrogance!)-- this IS A CULTURAL PHENOMENON. It is not something that every Moroccan does. It's not every single relationship, but it happens, and it is more common than most people want to admit.
(As an aside, I've had many conversations with young Moroccan men who think that the women deserve it-- that in some ways, they are doing "sex tourism" or "mail order husbands" because older, unattractive, divorced women with kids cannot actually believe that someone so much younger and more attractive would actually fall in love with them. Of course, I find that attitude abhorrent... but it also exists!).
These fraudsters make everyone's situation harder.
- It makes legitimate relationships (note-- most of these fraudulent relationships feel 100% legitimate to the USC petitioners!!) harder to go through their paperwork/visas/green cards. In other words, when consular officers see so many instances of fraud, it becomes harder to prove legitimacy.
- It hurts people who really think they are in love/in a relationship
- It hurts the way that Americans/"the West" look at Morocco/MENA/Islam
The people to get angry at in this visa journey is not the consulate. It's not the US Government. It's not people on a message board-- it's fraudsters.
So-- then the question comes up... why do others feel like they have the right to "judge" my relationship harshly? Why do people assume my fiance/husband is only looking for a green card?
This is tricky. On the one hand, it's true: we don't "know." Nobody has a window into someone's intentions. But consider the following:
- Back when I was applying for a K1, I read somewhere that 60-70% of K1 applications are denied because of fraud.
- Looking back here, there are very, very, very few people in long-term marriages (say, beyond 5-6 years), particularly when you look at red-flag situations (specifically meeting online with a huge age gap where female is older than male). It happens at times, and there are threads where people have asked "who has made it work long-term," but it is a large percentage where things don't work, and often this happens either after greencard/citizenship, or when the MENA male cheats or falls in love with someone else. Unfortunately, I have no empirical statistics... but very convincing circumstantial/anecdotal threads here and elsewhere that support these statements.
We know that the consulate (in Morocco) has published what they see as the biggest red flags (http://morocco.usembassy.gov/visas/immigrant-visas/fiance-visas.html) that indicate a likely fraudulent relationship. Though I don't have statistics or research, I am confident that this list was created based on experience, research, and facts.
This all being said... look at the situation from an "oldtimer's" perspective (which I don't consider myself, by the way). Women with many, many red flags come here to the forum, proclaiming mad, perfect, mature love with limited communication and limited understanding of each others' cultural backgrounds. The case might be "textbook" fraud... and yet, the USC doesn't think critically beyond emotions, or seem to take this into consideration.
It's a funny place to be in, when you see one of these. As a fellow human being, what would YOU say that our responsibility is? To encourage blindly following one's heart? To ask hard, probing questions (which will doubtless be asked by the consular officer eventually as well, and also by others behind your back once you are IN the States, married) that might help illustrate possible stumbling blocks? Ignoring the lessons of experience and get excited while overlooking possible pitfalls?
It's tricky. Some will work-- some will defy the odds. Many will not.
...
BUT even beyond "is it fraud," which, sure, nobody here can know despite the indicators... in some ways, the bigger question is "are you ready for this, are you honest with yourself about what this relationship would take (and is your fiance/spouse), and is this truly the right decision for us?"
I think, to me, this is my bigger concern with many people who glibly post about how perfect their relationship is, and how confident they are that they can and will make the relationship work easily-- just as long as the silly Consular Officers don't keep us apart!! Usually, when someone talks a lot about how perfect the relationship is to others, it seems like they are trying to convince themselves of the fact and if they are truly comfortable, they are confident and secure enough not to have to talk about it all the time.
The visa isn't the end result, even in a non-fraudulent relationship. The visa is just the beginning of what can and is usually a very challenging journey.
50% of US marriages end in divorce anyway. When you add in cultural, religious, linguistic, and worldview differences-- love won't get you through this. No matter how much you CARE about each other, that won't solve some of these issues. What will is realism: acknowledgement and preparations for a challenge, an insane amount of flexibility for both partners, a commitment to honest and open communication with both partners, a willingness to be humble, a willingness to listen and learn. And, in some ways, above all, a willingness and readiness to acknowledge that you might not always understand all the layers in a situation and even with communication, there will be times where you have to sacrifice even if you don't think you should have to. Even if it feels wrong or you don't understand.
In many ways, this is important for all marriages, but even moreso with a cross-cultural one. And no matter what you talk about before hand to see what you might have to compromise on? You can't cover it all. You won't be able to.
So-- as someone who loves, embraces, and has jumped onto this journey... when someone comes to the forum whining about the process? Part of me want to say, "look-- this bureaucratic nonsense is NOTHING compared to the level and type of sacrifice you must be ready for when building a life with your partner."

In terms of affection (re: Nicole and Azan)... so I have a different point of view. If-- and this is a big if!-- he's not a scammer, his awkwardness is totally possible in Moroccan culture. Some men in Morocco might not have a problem with PDA, but many do. For context....
- Moroccans generally don't say "I love you" as liberally as many Americans do... It's not as much of an every day, when I walk out the door, when we go to bed, when we feel it in the car type of phrase.
- PDA can actually get you in trouble with the law. My husband and I almost got in trouble on our first date, because I naively wanted to cuddle at a beach lookout where I had seen other couples before. My husband at the time was too shy to tell me "no," but was obviously awkward about it, and he had to talk our way out of a police station visit when an undercover cop stopped us. It was pretty bad. He couldn't handle PDA. He couldn't handle prolonged eye contact (and it made me doubt-- the eye contact thing was stressful!). He said my gaze was too intense and made him feel uncomfortable.
In essence, there is a lot of similarities in body language (though I was never NEARLY as extreme as Nicole) to what my husband and I navigated when we were first dating. It took him longer to say "I love you" than it took me. Even now, he's not huge on PDA, and we don't get PDA-y in front of his friends or parents even after 5 years of marriage.
But my heart went out for Azan when she went to his family's house (or at least what was portrayed that way-- wasn't that in Agadir and he's from Taroudant?). She was so shy and kept clinging to him, which was SO inappropriate in that context. But both he and his family were really accommodating.
This isn't to say that there aren't other huge red flags with N and A. There are. I dated my husband after living in Morocco for 3 years and there were still issues. But-- A reminds me of some of the more shy Moroccan men I have met. I wouldn't say that his discomfort with being physical or how he shows affection with Nicole is an indication of his scamming. It could be, but it could also just be authentic awkwardness with the culture clash.

In terms of affection (re: Nicole and Azan)... so I have a different point of view. If-- and this is a big if!-- he's not a scammer, his awkwardness is totally possible in Moroccan culture. Some men in Morocco might not have a problem with PDA, but many do. For context....
- Moroccans generally don't say "I love you" as liberally as many Americans do... It's not as much of an every day, when I walk out the door, when we go to bed, when we feel it in the car type of phrase.
- PDA can actually get you in trouble with the law. My husband and I almost got in trouble on our first date, because I naively wanted to cuddle at a beach lookout where I had seen other couples before. My husband at the time was too shy to tell me "no," but was obviously awkward about it, and he had to talk our way out of a police station visit when an undercover cop stopped us. It was pretty bad. He couldn't handle PDA. He couldn't handle prolonged eye contact (and it made me doubt-- the eye contact thing was stressful!). He said my gaze was too intense and made him feel uncomfortable.
In essence, there is a lot of similarities in body language (though I was never NEARLY as extreme as Nicole) to what my husband and I navigated when we were first dating. It took him longer to say "I love you" than it took me. Even now, he's not huge on PDA, and we don't get PDA-y in front of his friends or parents even after 5 years of marriage.
But my heart went out for Azan when she went to his family's house (or at least what was portrayed that way-- wasn't that in Agadir and he's from Taroudant?). She was so shy and kept clinging to him, which was SO inappropriate in that context. But both he and his family were really accommodating.
This isn't to say that there aren't other huge red flags with N and A. There are. I dated my husband after living in Morocco for 3 years and there were still issues. But-- A reminds me of some of the more shy Moroccan men I have met. I wouldn't say that his discomfort with being physical or how he shows affection with Nicole is an indication of his scamming. It could be, but it could also just be authentic awkwardness with the culture clash.

In terms of affection (re: Nicole and Azan)... so I have a different point of view. If-- and this is a big if!-- he's not a scammer, his awkwardness is totally possible in Moroccan culture. Some men in Morocco might not have a problem with PDA, but many do. For context....
- Moroccans generally don't say "I love you" as liberally as many Americans do... It's not as much of an every day, when I walk out the door, when we go to bed, when we feel it in the car type of phrase.
- PDA can actually get you in trouble with the law. My husband and I almost got in trouble on our first date, because I naively wanted to cuddle at a beach lookout where I had seen other couples before. My husband at the time was too shy to tell me "no," but was obviously awkward about it, and he had to talk our way out of a police station visit when an undercover cop stopped us. It was pretty bad. He couldn't handle PDA. He couldn't handle prolonged eye contact (and it made me doubt-- the eye contact thing was stressful!). He said my gaze was too intense and made him feel uncomfortable.
In essence, there is a lot of similarities in body language (though I was never NEARLY as extreme as Nicole) to what my husband and I navigated when we were first dating. It took him longer to say "I love you" than it took me. Even now, he's not huge on PDA, and we don't get PDA-y in front of his friends or parents even after 5 years of marriage.
But my heart went out for Azan when she went to his family's house (or at least what was portrayed that way-- wasn't that in Agadir and he's from Taroudant?). She was so shy and kept clinging to him, which was SO inappropriate in that context. But both he and his family were really accommodating.
This isn't to say that there aren't other huge red flags with N and A. There are. I dated my husband after living in Morocco for 3 years and there were still issues. But-- A reminds me of some of the more shy Moroccan men I have met. I wouldn't say that his discomfort with being physical or how he shows affection with Nicole is an indication of his scamming. It could be, but it could also just be authentic awkwardness with the culture clash.

In terms of affection (re: Nicole and Azan)... so I have a different point of view. If-- and this is a big if!-- he's not a scammer, his awkwardness is totally possible in Moroccan culture. Some men in Morocco might not have a problem with PDA, but many do. For context....
- Moroccans generally don't say "I love you" as liberally as many Americans do... It's not as much of an every day, when I walk out the door, when we go to bed, when we feel it in the car type of phrase.
- PDA can actually get you in trouble with the law. My husband and I almost got in trouble on our first date, because I naively wanted to cuddle at a beach lookout where I had seen other couples before. My husband at the time was too shy to tell me "no," but was obviously awkward about it, and he had to talk our way out of a police station visit when an undercover cop stopped us. It was pretty bad. He couldn't handle PDA. He couldn't handle prolonged eye contact (and it made me doubt-- the eye contact thing was stressful!). He said my gaze was too intense and made him feel uncomfortable.
In essence, there is a lot of similarities in body language (though I was never NEARLY as extreme as Nicole) to what my husband and I navigated when we were first dating. It took him longer to say "I love you" than it took me. Even now, he's not huge on PDA, and we don't get PDA-y in front of his friends or parents even after 5 years of marriage.
But my heart went out for Azan when she went to his family's house (or at least what was portrayed that way-- wasn't that in Agadir and he's from Taroudant?). She was so shy and kept clinging to him, which was SO inappropriate in that context. But both he and his family were really accommodating.
This isn't to say that there aren't other huge red flags with N and A. There are. I dated my husband after living in Morocco for 3 years and there were still issues. But-- A reminds me of some of the more shy Moroccan men I have met. I wouldn't say that his discomfort with being physical or how he shows affection with Nicole is an indication of his scamming. It could be, but it could also just be authentic awkwardness with the culture clash.

In terms of affection (re: Nicole and Azan)... so I have a different point of view. If-- and this is a big if!-- he's not a scammer, his awkwardness is totally possible in Moroccan culture. Some men in Morocco might not have a problem with PDA, but many do. For context....
- Moroccans generally don't say "I love you" as liberally as many Americans do... It's not as much of an every day, when I walk out the door, when we go to bed, when we feel it in the car type of phrase.
- PDA can actually get you in trouble with the law. My husband and I almost got in trouble on our first date, because I naively wanted to cuddle at a beach lookout where I had seen other couples before. My husband at the time was too shy to tell me "no," but was obviously awkward about it, and he had to talk our way out of a police station visit when an undercover cop stopped us. It was pretty bad. He couldn't handle PDA. He couldn't handle prolonged eye contact (and it made me doubt-- the eye contact thing was stressful!). He said my gaze was too intense and made him feel uncomfortable.
In essence, there is a lot of similarities in body language (though I was never NEARLY as extreme as Nicole) to what my husband and I navigated when we were first dating. It took him longer to say "I love you" than it took me. Even now, he's not huge on PDA, and we don't get PDA-y in front of his friends or parents even after 5 years of marriage.
But my heart went out for Azan when she went to his family's house (or at least what was portrayed that way-- wasn't that in Agadir and he's from Taroudant?). She was so shy and kept clinging to him, which was SO inappropriate in that context. But both he and his family were really accommodating.
This isn't to say that there aren't other huge red flags with N and A. There are. I dated my husband after living in Morocco for 3 years and there were still issues. But-- A reminds me of some of the more shy Moroccan men I have met. I wouldn't say that his discomfort with being physical or how he shows affection with Nicole is an indication of his scamming. It could be, but it could also just be authentic awkwardness with the culture clash.

In terms of affection (re: Nicole and Azan)... so I have a different point of view. If-- and this is a big if!-- he's not a scammer, his awkwardness is totally possible in Moroccan culture. Some men in Morocco might not have a problem with PDA, but many do. For context....
- Moroccans generally don't say "I love you" as liberally as many Americans do... It's not as much of an every day, when I walk out the door, when we go to bed, when we feel it in the car type of phrase.
- PDA can actually get you in trouble with the law. My husband and I almost got in trouble on our first date, because I naively wanted to cuddle at a beach lookout where I had seen other couples before. My husband at the time was too shy to tell me "no," but was obviously awkward about it, and he had to talk our way out of a police station visit when an undercover cop stopped us. It was pretty bad. He couldn't handle PDA. He couldn't handle prolonged eye contact (and it made me doubt-- the eye contact thing was stressful!). He said my gaze was too intense and made him feel uncomfortable.
In essence, there is a lot of similarities in body language (though I was never NEARLY as extreme as Nicole) to what my husband and I navigated when we were first dating. It took him longer to say "I love you" than it took me. Even now, he's not huge on PDA, and we don't get PDA-y in front of his friends or parents even after 5 years of marriage.
But my heart went out for Azan when she went to his family's house (or at least what was portrayed that way-- wasn't that in Agadir and he's from Taroudant?). She was so shy and kept clinging to him, which was SO inappropriate in that context. But both he and his family were really accommodating.
This isn't to say that there aren't other huge red flags with N and A. There are. I dated my husband after living in Morocco for 3 years and there were still issues. But-- A reminds me of some of the more shy Moroccan men I have met. I wouldn't say that his discomfort with being physical or how he shows affection with Nicole is an indication of his scamming. It could be, but it could also just be authentic awkwardness with the culture clash.

So-- I haven't been active on these boards lately, but my Moroccan husband just got his citizenship Friday! Best of luck to you all with wherever you are on this crazy journey, and best wishes for you all!

Morocco doesn't run on sharia. They have the mudawanna, the family court.

I understand the "why do we talk about fraud so much/assume?" dilemma, and it's something that I struggle with. I hate perpetuating stereotypes. I hate putting people into boxes. I actually work against this in my professional career, and think about it very often.
It's something I struggle with in my job and academic life as well: while acknowledging diversity within cultures, it is also helpful to acknowledge culture norms. I feel confident arguing that the more someone understands about the culture differences and implications of collectivist vs. individualist societies is helpful to be able to understand cross-cultural situations. Someone who understands collectivism and comes from an individualist culture will more likely have an easier time adapting to an collectivist society than someone ignorant of the potential implications.
I see this as the same thing. Is there diversity among culture, among MENA men, among Moroccan men, among regions in Morocco, among Arab culture and Berber culture, among socio-economic level, etc? Absolutely. One thing I loved about my time in Morocco was the rich diversity of behaviors, attitudes, and interactions within a country that is 99% one religion.
But to ignore the fact (and, yes, I will go as far as to call it a fact!) that there is a large group of people in Morocco who have accepted the behaviors that are tantamount to visa fraud is ignorant. It doesn't mean that we should or have the right to paint everyone with the same brush-- that would also be ignorant and unfair. BUT it means that we need to go into situations with our eyes open, acknowledging that this does happen to a certain percentage of people, and operate with caution. I think it's safe to say that in Morocco (I won't talk about other MENA places), it's certainly worth acknowledging that this is a sub-cultural norm that applies to a large enough group of people that it warrants discussion and acknowledgement. Not all, not most, but there is a culture around it with a large enough portion of the population to make it relevant.
Do I think most MENA marriages that fail do this because of fraud? Absolutely not. That's what I was trying to get at at the end of my last post-- love in and of itself is not enough for most marriages, let alone cross-cultural, interfaith marriages involving immigration. 50% of marriages in the US result in divorce. There are "fraud" equivalents in every culture.
But most Americans know about motivations for "fraud" equivalents in our own culture. Why do people get married, and when is it bad or a wrong motivation? Gold-diggers? Physical attraction? Stability? To fill a mental-health related void in their own life? To have kids? To find companionship? To meet the expectations society sets out for someone their age?
I hesitate to put value judgments on any of the above reasons. When is right and when is wrong? It's up to the couple to figure that out... but these are at least talked about enough that most people have the opportunity to be aware of this when they make their decisions.
But would most Americans know intuitively about the extent of the sub-culture norm among some Moroccan men that target American women online and exploit the "red flags?" No, probably not to the extent that it happens.
It's a tricky and hard conversation... one that ruffles feathers... but I'll risk ruffling feathers as long as it is clear that I am not painting all Moroccans/MENA/Arab/Berber/Muslim men with the same brush, but merely raising awareness of the potentially accepted behavior of a segment of the population.

I'll re-write some of what I said. As you see in the link that sandinista! posted earlier, I thought about starting a FAQ "landing page" for the MENA forum a few years back because, yes. This place can be harsh. Yes-- this place can be unsupportive. But, ultimately, the people who might come across on the tougher side of "tough love" rather than the loving side are more often than not completely on-point with their statements and criticisms. It's hard to hear, and it's frustrating that there is so much drama somewhere that most of us come for support, but usually the content of the negativity is pretty justifiable.
Why? Let's look at the facts. Morocco and the MENA region are high-fraud countries. I'm sure most people who have been here for awhile have stories. When my husband first came to the US, he went out to lunch with my mother at a Mediterranean deli and the two Moroccans behind the counter gently ribbed him in Darija about his "wife." It is so prevalent that men prey on older women for visas that they assumed he had done the same thing and was married to my mother (who is 29 years older).
The Consulate made a video that mentioned fraud as well. Check out this YouTube video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sjE4nuhSDw (whoops-- not this video-- maybe there is a part 2 somewhere; not sure what happened to it, but it was from the same meeting!!).
You can hear and read stories here, on other websites, etc. But-- after living in Morocco for 5 years, and after getting to know Morocco and Moroccans at that level (and I still have a lot to learn-- it's not a statement of arrogance!)-- this IS A CULTURAL PHENOMENON. It is not something that every Moroccan does. It's not every single relationship, but it happens, and it is more common than most people want to admit.
(As an aside, I've had many conversations with young Moroccan men who think that the women deserve it-- that in some ways, they are doing "sex tourism" or "mail order husbands" because older, unattractive, divorced women with kids cannot actually believe that someone so much younger and more attractive would actually fall in love with them. Of course, I find that attitude abhorrent... but it also exists!).
These fraudsters make everyone's situation harder.
- It makes legitimate relationships (note-- most of these fraudulent relationships feel 100% legitimate to the USC petitioners!!) harder to go through their paperwork/visas/green cards. In other words, when consular officers see so many instances of fraud, it becomes harder to prove legitimacy.
- It hurts people who really think they are in love/in a relationship
- It hurts the way that Americans/"the West" look at Morocco/MENA/Islam
The people to get angry at in this visa journey is not the consulate. It's not the US Government. It's not people on a message board-- it's fraudsters.
So-- then the question comes up... why do others feel like they have the right to "judge" my relationship harshly? Why do people assume my fiance/husband is only looking for a green card?
This is tricky. On the one hand, it's true: we don't "know." Nobody has a window into someone's intentions. But consider the following:
- Back when I was applying for a K1, I read somewhere that 60-70% of K1 applications are denied because of fraud.
- Looking back here, there are very, very, very few people in long-term marriages (say, beyond 5-6 years), particularly when you look at red-flag situations (specifically meeting online with a huge age gap where female is older than male). It happens at times, and there are threads where people have asked "who has made it work long-term," but it is a large percentage where things don't work, and often this happens either after greencard/citizenship, or when the MENA male cheats or falls in love with someone else. Unfortunately, I have no empirical statistics... but very convincing circumstantial/anecdotal threads here and elsewhere that support these statements.
We know that the consulate (in Morocco) has published what they see as the biggest red flags (http://morocco.usembassy.gov/visas/immigrant-visas/fiance-visas.html) that indicate a likely fraudulent relationship. Though I don't have statistics or research, I am confident that this list was created based on experience, research, and facts.
This all being said... look at the situation from an "oldtimer's" perspective (which I don't consider myself, by the way). Women with many, many red flags come here to the forum, proclaiming mad, perfect, mature love with limited communication and limited understanding of each others' cultural backgrounds. The case might be "textbook" fraud... and yet, the USC doesn't think critically beyond emotions, or seem to take this into consideration.
It's a funny place to be in, when you see one of these. As a fellow human being, what would YOU say that our responsibility is? To encourage blindly following one's heart? To ask hard, probing questions (which will doubtless be asked by the consular officer eventually as well, and also by others behind your back once you are IN the States, married) that might help illustrate possible stumbling blocks? Ignoring the lessons of experience and get excited while overlooking possible pitfalls?
It's tricky. Some will work-- some will defy the odds. Many will not.
...
BUT even beyond "is it fraud," which, sure, nobody here can know despite the indicators... in some ways, the bigger question is "are you ready for this, are you honest with yourself about what this relationship would take (and is your fiance/spouse), and is this truly the right decision for us?"
I think, to me, this is my bigger concern with many people who glibly post about how perfect their relationship is, and how confident they are that they can and will make the relationship work easily-- just as long as the silly Consular Officers don't keep us apart!! Usually, when someone talks a lot about how perfect the relationship is to others, it seems like they are trying to convince themselves of the fact and if they are truly comfortable, they are confident and secure enough not to have to talk about it all the time.
The visa isn't the end result, even in a non-fraudulent relationship. The visa is just the beginning of what can and is usually a very challenging journey.
50% of US marriages end in divorce anyway. When you add in cultural, religious, linguistic, and worldview differences-- love won't get you through this. No matter how much you CARE about each other, that won't solve some of these issues. What will is realism: acknowledgement and preparations for a challenge, an insane amount of flexibility for both partners, a commitment to honest and open communication with both partners, a willingness to be humble, a willingness to listen and learn. And, in some ways, above all, a willingness and readiness to acknowledge that you might not always understand all the layers in a situation and even with communication, there will be times where you have to sacrifice even if you don't think you should have to. Even if it feels wrong or you don't understand.
In many ways, this is important for all marriages, but even moreso with a cross-cultural one. And no matter what you talk about before hand to see what you might have to compromise on? You can't cover it all. You won't be able to.
So-- as someone who loves, embraces, and has jumped onto this journey... when someone comes to the forum whining about the process? Part of me want to say, "look-- this bureaucratic nonsense is NOTHING compared to the level and type of sacrifice you must be ready for when building a life with your partner."

I'll re-write some of what I said. As you see in the link that sandinista! posted earlier, I thought about starting a FAQ "landing page" for the MENA forum a few years back because, yes. This place can be harsh. Yes-- this place can be unsupportive. But, ultimately, the people who might come across on the tougher side of "tough love" rather than the loving side are more often than not completely on-point with their statements and criticisms. It's hard to hear, and it's frustrating that there is so much drama somewhere that most of us come for support, but usually the content of the negativity is pretty justifiable.
Why? Let's look at the facts. Morocco and the MENA region are high-fraud countries. I'm sure most people who have been here for awhile have stories. When my husband first came to the US, he went out to lunch with my mother at a Mediterranean deli and the two Moroccans behind the counter gently ribbed him in Darija about his "wife." It is so prevalent that men prey on older women for visas that they assumed he had done the same thing and was married to my mother (who is 29 years older).
The Consulate made a video that mentioned fraud as well. Check out this YouTube video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sjE4nuhSDw (whoops-- not this video-- maybe there is a part 2 somewhere; not sure what happened to it, but it was from the same meeting!!).
You can hear and read stories here, on other websites, etc. But-- after living in Morocco for 5 years, and after getting to know Morocco and Moroccans at that level (and I still have a lot to learn-- it's not a statement of arrogance!)-- this IS A CULTURAL PHENOMENON. It is not something that every Moroccan does. It's not every single relationship, but it happens, and it is more common than most people want to admit.
(As an aside, I've had many conversations with young Moroccan men who think that the women deserve it-- that in some ways, they are doing "sex tourism" or "mail order husbands" because older, unattractive, divorced women with kids cannot actually believe that someone so much younger and more attractive would actually fall in love with them. Of course, I find that attitude abhorrent... but it also exists!).
These fraudsters make everyone's situation harder.
- It makes legitimate relationships (note-- most of these fraudulent relationships feel 100% legitimate to the USC petitioners!!) harder to go through their paperwork/visas/green cards. In other words, when consular officers see so many instances of fraud, it becomes harder to prove legitimacy.
- It hurts people who really think they are in love/in a relationship
- It hurts the way that Americans/"the West" look at Morocco/MENA/Islam
The people to get angry at in this visa journey is not the consulate. It's not the US Government. It's not people on a message board-- it's fraudsters.
So-- then the question comes up... why do others feel like they have the right to "judge" my relationship harshly? Why do people assume my fiance/husband is only looking for a green card?
This is tricky. On the one hand, it's true: we don't "know." Nobody has a window into someone's intentions. But consider the following:
- Back when I was applying for a K1, I read somewhere that 60-70% of K1 applications are denied because of fraud.
- Looking back here, there are very, very, very few people in long-term marriages (say, beyond 5-6 years), particularly when you look at red-flag situations (specifically meeting online with a huge age gap where female is older than male). It happens at times, and there are threads where people have asked "who has made it work long-term," but it is a large percentage where things don't work, and often this happens either after greencard/citizenship, or when the MENA male cheats or falls in love with someone else. Unfortunately, I have no empirical statistics... but very convincing circumstantial/anecdotal threads here and elsewhere that support these statements.
We know that the consulate (in Morocco) has published what they see as the biggest red flags (http://morocco.usembassy.gov/visas/immigrant-visas/fiance-visas.html) that indicate a likely fraudulent relationship. Though I don't have statistics or research, I am confident that this list was created based on experience, research, and facts.
This all being said... look at the situation from an "oldtimer's" perspective (which I don't consider myself, by the way). Women with many, many red flags come here to the forum, proclaiming mad, perfect, mature love with limited communication and limited understanding of each others' cultural backgrounds. The case might be "textbook" fraud... and yet, the USC doesn't think critically beyond emotions, or seem to take this into consideration.
It's a funny place to be in, when you see one of these. As a fellow human being, what would YOU say that our responsibility is? To encourage blindly following one's heart? To ask hard, probing questions (which will doubtless be asked by the consular officer eventually as well, and also by others behind your back once you are IN the States, married) that might help illustrate possible stumbling blocks? Ignoring the lessons of experience and get excited while overlooking possible pitfalls?
It's tricky. Some will work-- some will defy the odds. Many will not.
...
BUT even beyond "is it fraud," which, sure, nobody here can know despite the indicators... in some ways, the bigger question is "are you ready for this, are you honest with yourself about what this relationship would take (and is your fiance/spouse), and is this truly the right decision for us?"
I think, to me, this is my bigger concern with many people who glibly post about how perfect their relationship is, and how confident they are that they can and will make the relationship work easily-- just as long as the silly Consular Officers don't keep us apart!! Usually, when someone talks a lot about how perfect the relationship is to others, it seems like they are trying to convince themselves of the fact and if they are truly comfortable, they are confident and secure enough not to have to talk about it all the time.
The visa isn't the end result, even in a non-fraudulent relationship. The visa is just the beginning of what can and is usually a very challenging journey.
50% of US marriages end in divorce anyway. When you add in cultural, religious, linguistic, and worldview differences-- love won't get you through this. No matter how much you CARE about each other, that won't solve some of these issues. What will is realism: acknowledgement and preparations for a challenge, an insane amount of flexibility for both partners, a commitment to honest and open communication with both partners, a willingness to be humble, a willingness to listen and learn. And, in some ways, above all, a willingness and readiness to acknowledge that you might not always understand all the layers in a situation and even with communication, there will be times where you have to sacrifice even if you don't think you should have to. Even if it feels wrong or you don't understand.
In many ways, this is important for all marriages, but even moreso with a cross-cultural one. And no matter what you talk about before hand to see what you might have to compromise on? You can't cover it all. You won't be able to.
So-- as someone who loves, embraces, and has jumped onto this journey... when someone comes to the forum whining about the process? Part of me want to say, "look-- this bureaucratic nonsense is NOTHING compared to the level and type of sacrifice you must be ready for when building a life with your partner."

Just because he applies for a re-entry permit doesn't mean they will issue one. he hasn't been residing in the US, he is using his green card for a visitor visa and will most likely have it revoked. Green cards are for LIVING in the US.

He isn't residing in the US he is visiting. Read the requirements for maintained resident status. He will likely lose the green card soon with his current pattern of travel

I can only wish you luck. I'm engaged to a man in Alexandria right now and we're waiting for his interview to be scheduled. I can only tell you that this process is incredibly painful and difficult. Being in a long-distance relationship with such different cultures is overwhelming. She is used to having a lot of freedom as an American woman, and you will probably expect her to isolate herself from all male acquaintances and many social situations after engagement or marriage. That isolation is okay when you have your sweetheart by your side, but when you're not together, it's just a huge stress on both of you. At least that's my experience. I wasn't prepared for how many sacrifices I would have to make to help my Muslim sweetheart feel comfortable--it's a difference of cultures that you need to discuss with your sweetheart in depth before you move forward. Talk about expectations. Talk about your Plan B if your visa is refused. Talk about how you'll find time to be together while you're waiting. Can she travel to see you? Can you travel to some other country to spend time together there?
As far as the actual visa process, I believe your visa wait will take longer if you're already married. If you go the K-1 route, you run the risk of being denied and then having to start over with the other. However, you also run that risk if you're married also. There are no guarantees. How do you do with massive uncertainty? This process is stressful. Very. Stressful. The more you can accept that, the better your chance of success. Whatever you choose to do, I am happy you found love and I hope you two can make it work. Real love is a beautiful thing and worth fighting for.

Wow 14 months ago I started this topic - where has the time gone? LOL I can remember back when I wrote that I was caught up in the planning of my first trip to see him. Now he is my husband and I am caught up in the visa process. Hopefully the time will go that quickly and soon he will be with me here. Probably won't go that fast though - during this past year 5 of those months I was in Morocco with him - those months passed so fast!

However, after viewing this forum for quite some time, it's apparant that a good portion of applicants are lacking in common sense.

That you hate trees.

With regards to bank statements, I picked a month and then sent in that month's statement back for five years. 240 pages of bank statements is, frankly, ridiculous.
From memory I believe I sent in a total of just over 100 pages, and that included the USCIS forms, too.

Not to mention that receipts from a photo session is NOT close to being considered evidence of a bonafide marriage.

Quality over quantity. And good evidence does NOT make you get approved faster. It only gets an approval without RFE.

Wanna know what the harm is? Put yourself in the shoes up the person receiving that. Their internal monologue: 'this idiot sent me ~1000 pages worth of junk? Jeez. I think I'll stick this one in the corner/lose one of their forms/stick them with a bogus RFE.' They're human. It makes sense to provide them with what they need, perhaps a bit more, but don't drown them in unnecessary papers.

'2 inches' of documents is a lot less than 600 pages. There is absolutely no need to send in hundreds of pages of bank statements. Ridiculous.