I-129F Evidence

[aussiewench 9]

There is two parts to evidence.

* First is evidence of having met in the 2 years prior to the signed/dated I-129F, which is an absolute requirement of the petition being accepted.

* Second is evidence of the intention to marry which supports the 'letter of intent' which is also a requirement of the I-129F.

This evidence together will form the picture in the minds eye of the adjudicator as to whether it is complete or if a RFE is to be issued.

There is no requirement to submit evidence of an ongoing relationship at this stage and doing so can run the risk of relevant evidence getting lost in the abundance of unnecessary evidence that is sent. What is needed is selective evidence that in total will satisfy the requirements and enable an adjudicator to process the evidence in regards the petition in a timely manner without questions being raised. The USCIS itself even requests that only relevant documents/evidence be provided as it can slow down the process through adjudication.

From the I-129F Instructions.

5. What Documents Do You Need to Prove That You Can Legally Marry?

A. Provide copies of evidence that you and your fiancé(e) have personally met within the last two years; or if you have never met within the last two years, provide a detailed explanation and evidence of the extreme hardship or customary, cultural or social practices that have prohibited your meeting; and

B. Provide original statements from you and your fiancé(e) whom you plan to marry within 90 days of his or her admission, and copies of any evidence you wish to submit to establish your mutual intent; and

I believe this is were much confusion has been created both in the forums and in the I-129F Guide. Evidence to show 'mutual intent' has and is being erroneously taken to mean evidence of ongoing relationship. Evidence to proove an ongoing relationship is not required until interview.

[kaydee457 13]

Good post aussie, however, I'm believing that it's futile to assert this point of view as there's so many that wrongly believe otherwise.....

[irishgirl73 0]

Documentary Proof of Having Met in Person in the Past Two Years and an Ongoing Relationship:

Use as many of these items are possible. There is no minimum,

but the more you can provide the less likely you are that you will receive an RFE. 1. Copies of all airline 1.boarding passes, train passes, itineraries, hotel receipts, passport stamps (make sure you can read the dates on the stamps), and other documentary evidence that you have met within the last two years. You may want to highlight or place post-it notes indicating the dates and locations on the copies (to make the adjudication easier) for the person reviewing your file.

2. Color Photo's of you and your fiance(e). Make sure you write your names, date, and location on the back of every photo. Provide two to five photo's. If you only have a single copy of the photo, then make a color copy and send that. If it is a digital photo, have it printed at a company such as ofoto.com. You can also make duplicates of photo's at your local photo store (Walgreeens, CVS, etc). Place photo's in a plastic bag or photo sheet and label the sheet. Note that you may not receive originals of photo's back.

3. Copy of engagement ring receipt (this is something that is a big optional - do not worry if you do not have a ring yet!)

4. Copies of phone bills, cell phone bills, emails (you can edit personal info with a marker), letters (edit personal info also), stamps on the letters (to document the date they were sent), and other written documentary proof. Provide a reasonable amount; two to four of each type. Pick a range of dates up to and including the present.

This is what's causing confusion, I followed the guides here on vj. I probably sent too much, but I thought it is what was required to file. Maybe it should be updated-if it is incorrect?

[Chuckles 0]

Documentary Proof of Having Met in Person in the Past Two Years and an Ongoing Relationship:

Use as many of these items are possible. There is no minimum,

but the more you can provide the less likely you are that you will receive an RFE. 1. Copies of all airline 1.boarding passes, train passes, itineraries, hotel receipts, passport stamps (make sure you can read the dates on the stamps), and other documentary evidence that you have met within the last two years. You may want to highlight or place post-it notes indicating the dates and locations on the copies (to make the adjudication easier) for the person reviewing your file.

2. Color Photo's of you and your fiance(e). Make sure you write your names, date, and location on the back of every photo. Provide two to five photo's. If you only have a single copy of the photo, then make a color copy and send that. If it is a digital photo, have it printed at a company such as ofoto.com. You can also make duplicates of photo's at your local photo store (Walgreeens, CVS, etc). Place photo's in a plastic bag or photo sheet and label the sheet. Note that you may not receive originals of photo's back.

3. Copy of engagement ring receipt (this is something that is a big optional - do not worry if you do not have a ring yet!)

4. Copies of phone bills, cell phone bills, emails (you can edit personal info with a marker), letters (edit personal info also), stamps on the letters (to document the date they were sent), and other written documentary proof. Provide a reasonable amount; two to four of each type. Pick a range of dates up to and including the present.

This is what's causing confusion, I followed the guides here on vj. I probably sent too much, but I thought it is what was required to file. Maybe it should be updated-if it is incorrect?

Agreed.

[Cristy 4]

4. Copies of phone bills, cell phone bills, emails (you can edit personal info with a marker), letters (edit personal info also), stamps on the letters (to document the date they were sent), and other written documentary proof. Provide a reasonable amount; two to four of each type. Pick a range of dates up to and including the present.

We sent none of this. We have it, but were going to send it later when it is asked for. I did notice it is listed in the guide though and that does cause confusion.

[irishgirl73 0]

I always see posts about "what people should send with their petition". If they do not require evidence of an on-going relationship, then it should be removed from the guides.

Just my opinion, but I do think it would save everyone a lot of time. The same question gets asked a lot on here. I am wondering if that is why my petition is taking sooooooo long to get approved, when others are approved in days.

What do you guys think?

[kaydee457 13]

If they do not require evidence of an on-going relationship, then it should be removed from the guides.

Agreed.

[Yodrak 7]

aussiewench,

As your own reference to the instructions indicates, highlighted with the bolding that you added, evidence of the intention to marry, other than the statements of intent, is not a requirement of the I-129f - it's optional at the discretion of the petitioner.

Yodrak

There is two parts to evidence.

* First is evidence of having met in the 2 years prior to the signed/dated I-129F, which is an absolute requirement of the petition being accepted.

* Second is evidence of the intention to marry which supports the 'letter of intent' which is also a requirement of the I-129F.

This evidence together will form the picture in the minds eye of the adjudicator as to whether it is complete or if a RFE is to be issued.

There is no requirement to submit evidence of an ongoing relationship at this stage and doing so can run the risk of relevant evidence getting lost in the abundance of unnecessary evidence that is sent. What is needed is selective evidence that in total will satisfy the requirements and enable an adjudicator to process the evidence in regards the petition in a timely manner without questions being raised. The USCIS itself even requests that only relevant documents/evidence be provided as it can slow down the process through adjudication.

From the I-129F Instructions.

5. What Documents Do You Need to Prove That You Can Legally Marry?

A. Provide copies of evidence that you and your fiancé(e) have personally met within the last two years; or if you have never met within the last two years, provide a detailed explanation and evidence of the extreme hardship or customary, cultural or social practices that have prohibited your meeting; and

B. Provide original statements from you and your fiancé(e) whom you plan to marry within 90 days of his or her admission, and copies of any evidence you wish to submit to establish your mutual intent; and

I believe this is were much confusion has been created both in the forums and in the I-129F Guide. Evidence to show 'mutual intent' has and is being erroneously taken to mean evidence of ongoing relationship. Evidence to proove an ongoing relationship is not required until interview.

[zyggy 9]

As I have stated, I believe that this information may prove to be a disservice to the immigration community in that it over simplifies the process and could cause people to take measures that could cause problems down the line. I would much rater answer these types of questions on a case by case, individual by individual basis than making statements that could oversimplify the potential issues.

The other post (http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1193&st=20)gives the reasons why it may be prudent for a petitioner to include additional information on the validity of the relationship with the I-129F submission. Where it is true that inclusion of the information would not result in an RFE, and could result in an RFE if it is not adequately reviewed, it could be very helpful when the petition comes to the Consular Phase, especially at high fraud consulates.

Edited February 8, 2006 by zyggy

[aussiewench 9]

As I have stated, I believe that this information may prove to be a disservice to the immigration community in that it over simplifies the process and could cause people to take measures that could cause problems down the line. I would much rater answer these types of questions on a case by case, individual by individual basis than making statements that could oversimplify the potential issues.

The other post (http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1193&st=20)gives the reasons why it may be prudent for a petitioner to include additional information on the validity of the relationship with the I-129F submission. Where it is true that inclusion of the information would not result in an RFE, and could result in an RFE if it is not adequately reviewed, it could be very helpful when the petition comes to the Consular Phase, especially at high fraud consulates.

Members have problems now with RFE's and reveiws at SC.....WITH the guides saying what they do. Too much information could change the perception of a case in the minds eye of an adjudicator when they are reviewing evidence that is not required to be assessed by them, only that a petition is eligible. I posted this in the other thread from a USCIS Interoffice Memorandum

Therefore, when a case is approvable based on initial evidence, and there is not evidence justifying a particular concern to support a RFE or a referral to Fraud Detection and National Security (FDNS), the case

should be approved without RFE or NOID.

aussiewench,

As your own reference to the instructions indicates, highlighted with the bolding that you added, evidence of the intention to marry, other than the statements of intent, is not a requirement of the I-129f - it's optional at the discretion of the petitioner.

Yodrak

Yes Yodrak, that is true.......I was merely saying I felt it is being confused. IMO though submitting evidence of intent to marry which in part also shows proof of the relationship, along with the evidence of having met in the required 2 years, would go a lot further to enhance the petition as opposed to excessive proof of the relationship that is being submitted in general.

[zyggy 9]

As I have stated, I believe that this information may prove to be a disservice to the immigration community in that it over simplifies the process and could cause people to take measures that could cause problems down the line. I would much rater answer these types of questions on a case by case, individual by individual basis than making statements that could oversimplify the potential issues.

The other post (http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1193&st=20)gives the reasons why it may be prudent for a petitioner to include additional information on the validity of the relationship with the I-129F submission. Where it is true that inclusion of the information would not result in an RFE, and could result in an RFE if it is not adequately reviewed, it could be very helpful when the petition comes to the Consular Phase, especially at high fraud consulates.

Members have problems now with RFE's and reveiws at SC.....WITH the guides saying what they do. Too much information could change the perception of a case in the minds eye of an adjudicator when they are reviewing evidence that is not required to be assessed by them, only that a petition is eligible. I posted this in the other thread from a USCIS Interoffice Memorandum

Therefore, when a case is approvable based on initial evidence, and there is not evidence justifying a particular concern to support a RFE or a referral to Fraud Detection and National Security (FDNS), the case

should be approved without RFE or NOID.

I agree that there may be problems with people throwing in too much of the kitchen sink and submitting evidence without having a subjective eye look the petition over to catch any potential red flags. I also agree that our guides do not do an adequate job of explaining to people when including the addition of evidence or an explanation of the nature of the relationship could prove to be beneficial.

IMHO, I think it would be better to be bogged down for a short period of time at the USCIS end due to problems with the relationship evidence than to have the consulate deny it and send it back if it could have been possibly prevented by including such information. I also agree that there are many parts of the world where providing such information would be superfluous.

However, it believe this issue should be tackled by providing better explanations on why it may be prudent to include such information and why it could be helpful than to just wipe it off the map and pretend that it doesn't exist.

Edited February 8, 2006 by zyggy

[Yodrak 7]

aussiewench,

What you said was,

"* Second is evidence of the intention to marry which supports the 'letter of intent' which is also a requirement of the I-129F."

It is not a requirement.

I am not discussing the possible benefits, or dangers, of providing information beyond that which is explicitly required, I am only commenting on whether it's required or is optional.

As for 'ongoing relationship' being the same as or different from 'intent to marry', I see them as being one and the same - intent to marry is the definition of the relationship that we identify by the term 'finace(e)'. Beyond that, what has to be proved is that said relationship is bona fide, i.e. not for the purpose of evading US immigration law. I find it interesting how so many people talk about so many aspects of the issue of relationship without ever mentioning this one essential element.

Perhaps it the essential element was kept in mind rather than all the other side issues, it would be easier to determine what would be helpful to provide and what is excessive and not helpful.

Yodrak

aussiewench,

As your own reference to the instructions indicates, highlighted with the bolding that you added, evidence of the intention to marry, other than the statements of intent, is not a requirement of the I-129f - it's optional at the discretion of the petitioner.

Yodrak

Yes Yodrak, that is true.......I was merely saying I felt it is being confused. IMO though submitting evidence of intent to marry which in part also shows proof of the relationship, along with the evidence of having met in the required 2 years, would go a lot further to enhance the petition as opposed to excessive proof of the relationship that is being submitted in general.

You are not the only person to have made this observation.

Yet, whenever anyone asks about the value of immigration attornies, so many people remain adamant that attornies add no value and are a waste of money....

Yodrak

Members have problems now with RFE's and reveiws at SC.....

Edited February 8, 2006 by Yodrak

[meauxna 15]

By way of observation only---I have never filed an I-129f myself-- I'll add that the FAQs, and later the Guides, were compiled from user's experiences of what made their cases successful. Many handy tips have been added to the official instructions over the years in the spirit of users helping other users through the sometimes arcane and confusing langugage of USCIS.

Certainly a self-filer can stick strictly to the instructions as stated, and most may succeed.

However, it's certainly been shown that common RFEs can be avoided by adopting the techniques of past successes, including those of attorneys who have filed many more cases than any individual will, and longtime reader/users who have read many different case types, strategies and successes/failures (and pass those stories along).

Perhaps the answer lies in 2 places:

-Clean up any notion that additions to the instructions are/are not optional. IE, clarify that suggestions that go beyond that stated requirements are at the petitioner's discretion.

and

- Continue to drill home to posters that they are here to do their own case, each case is unique, and it is up to the individual couple(s) to decide what is appropriate to include in their case. I find that people tend to want clear-cut instructions, rather than taking the risk of deciding for themselves. Unfortunately, that path is only available via an attorney--a method that is usually trashed by other self-filers.

[kaydee457 13]

By way of observation only---I have never filed an I-129f myself-- I'll add that the FAQs, and later the Guides, were compiled from user's experiences of what made their cases successful. Many handy tips have been added to the official instructions over the years in the spirit of users helping other users through the sometimes arcane and confusing langugage of USCIS.

Wherein this discussion becomes very subjective. There's no proof that adding relationship materials to ones submittal helps in any way. In fact, in most cases it's probably ignored. Unfortunately, this isn't always true.

There have been RFE's generated as a result of adding relationship materials that would otherwise would not have been issued if these materials were omitted.

Further, in the matter of adjudicating the I-129F and any RFE's issued as a result; I personally have never seen an RFE specifically citing the lack of: emails, phone records, photos, etc.

My contention once again is that if it wasn't asked for it isn't required.

Certainly a self-filer can stick strictly to the instructions as stated, and most may succeed.

However, it's certainly been shown that common RFEs can be avoided by adopting the techniques of past successes, including those of attorneys who have filed many more cases than any individual will, and longtime reader/users who have read many different case types, strategies and successes/failures (and pass those stories along).

Once again, there's no proof that deviating from the instructions and supplying more than is required to satisfy the instructions provided, works in ones favor. There have been instances where the opposite took place resulting in an RFE.

If I can use a simple analogy to make a point. It's sort of like saying that you're going to show up at the DMV with a letter from uncle Jim and Aunt Sue attesting to your wonderful driving skills when all that was asked for was a utility bill with your name on it and your Birth Certificate.

You may submit it if you wish but its relative worth in meeting the proof of residence and age requirements is certainly questionable. If the letter contains information that may put your place of residence in question it may very well work against you.

Perhaps the answer lies in 2 places:

-Clean up any notion that additions to the instructions are/are not optional. IE, clarify that suggestions that go beyond that stated requirements are at the petitioner's discretion.[/b]

It should be made very clear that there's no evidence that there's any advantage to supplying superfluous information but rather a peril in doing so.

and

- Continue to drill home to posters that they are here to do their own case, each case is unique, and it is up to the individual couple(s) to decide what is appropriate to include in their case. I find that people tend to want clear-cut instructions, rather than taking the risk of deciding for themselves. Unfortunately, that path is only available via an attorney--a method that is usually trashed by other self-filers.

I don't agree that each case is unique but rather that most all cases are very similar with the exception of the few that have extraordinary circumstances.

[Yodrak 7]

Kaydee,

I agree that most cases are very similar, but they are nevertheless unique because 'very similar' does not mean the same thing as 'identical'.

The risk that D-I-Yers run is that everyone talks about the similarities among situations, few identify or search for the often hidden dis-similarities that can be the critical difference.

Yodrak

...

I don't agree that each case is unique but rather that most all cases are very similar with the exception of the few that have extraordinary circumstances.